So, I know it's been clarified that monks can TWF with unarmed strikes. But what if a monk wields a 2-handed weapon and wants to TWF with that weapon and unarmed strikes? Specifically, what if they want to make the first attack with the 2-handed weapon, and all subsequent attacks with unarmed strikes?
The reason I ask is that I am working on a build that dips monk and uses unarmed strikes to deliver extra sneak damage with Sap Master, but I want to use my first attack with a 7-branched-sword to make them flatfooted first for Sap Master to trigger on subsequent attacks.
It doesn't work. According to Paizo using two hands to use a two-handed weapon uses both hands and can't be combined with any off-hand attacks. Now maybe you can combine your first hits for the two hander and then use the improved two weapon's attack separately.
That's kind of odd... I saw where that ruling was made on spiked gauntlet/armor spikes, but that was because they required a hand to use. Since a monk's unarmed strike can be any limb, I figured it might work.
Though I do find the ruling odd even for the spiked gauntelt/armor spikes since you can ungrip and regrip a two-handed weapon as free actions, so even if you did need a hand free, it wouldn't matter. It works for casting spells, so why not?
It's because you are using the hand to make an attack. so you've already used that "hand's" potential or two "hands" worth of attack. And hand is refereing to a source, so Hands, or boots, or spikes, or whatever, each is a "hand".
Monks have no special twf rules outside of flurry. If your not using flurry you follow the same restrictions S's everyone else.
If you're using a flurry then you can go ahead and make each attack with whatever you want, according to my understanding. My answers have been using the TWF feats and not flurry. TWF and flurry of blows don't mix. Anyone can TWF with unarmed strikes. You don't even need to be proficient to do so, though you'll have major penalties for doing so.
Conversely, if you *do* follow the monk's flurry rules (as opposed to actual two-weapon fighting), you have no problem. As long as you can flurry your two-handed weapon (i.e. it is a monk weapon) then you can mix it with attacks with other monk weapons and unarmed strikes in any way you want.
If you can flurry a two-handed weapon via other means (such as archetypes or special magic items that say you can) then it works too. (I recall there is some katana that can be flurried - it's just very expensive.)
I'll only be dipping two levels, so FoB would only last me until I get to 6 BaB.
It seems, though, that once I get Improved (and later, Greater) TWF, I could possibly do the following, as Chess Pwn mentioned in his first post:
First attack at full BaB with 7-Branched Sword to trip
TWF with two unarmed strikes at -5 each with Improved TWF
TWF with two more unarmed strikes at -10 each with Greater TWF
If this works at least, I can deal with losing the one attack at full BaB.
No, the Paizo team (by the last ruling that I know of) have declared that using a two-handed weapon makes all off-hand attacks nonviable; even if you have a third arm or are using a non-off-hand attack like a knee to the groin.
There *is* at least one item that allows you to TWF a two-hander with an off-hand attack though. The Cheliax Player Companion (I think) added a helmet with a chin spike (a devil beard or some such) that can be used for TWF along with a two-handed weapon.
Now I don't know how RAW it is, But It keeps in power balance of using hands. Now again, what is the purpose of the 2 levels of monk?
@LoreKeeper
If that's the case, I suppose there are a few ways to work around it for my purposes. I could use a Small 7-branched-sword and just take the inappropriate size penalty, since I'm not limited to only tripping with an appropriately sized one. Or I could dip 2 levels in Titan Mauler, but that's really stretching the build thin, so I'll probably go with the prior.
@Chess Pwn
The two levels of monk are for MoMS to cheat in Pummeling Style and Pummeling Charge from the Advanced Class Guide via requirement-free bonus style feats. This is paired with 4 levels of Scout archetype Rogue to make all of my charges count opponents as flatfooted and give me a full round of unarmed strikes to wreck them with. I wouldn't need the 7-Branched Sword for that part.
I'm not sure you'd get the sneak attack on all "hits" from the charge. Also greater two-weapon feint is basically what you're trying to do already. And you don't have to worry about the weapon at the start. And I bet you'd do better at feinting then tripping them.
two-weapon-feint
also, if you're going monk for the style feats without prereqs you don't get flurry of blows. Also, if you get the first feat normally you can take 1 level of unarmed fighter to get the charge. This lets you be an non-lawful rogue. and you can go more for any combat feats you need.
Unfortunately, Denied Dex =/= Flatfooted.
Sap Master requires the opponent to be Flatfooted, which is why the workaround is so difficult.
For the charge, it depends on how you read this confusing bit of text, which probably also need clarification:
For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any).
Thanks for the tip on Unarmed Fighter, that frees up a level for me. I forgot to mention my first level is actually in Snakebite Striker Brawler, so I'll have Brawler Flurry.
So are you going mostly brawler or are you going into rouge or what? because brawler's flurry doesn't stack with TWF I'm pretty sure. You'd still need to get all the feats for it.
Yes, I still plan to get all the feats as normal. The level in Snakebite Striker Brawler is just for free IUS and +1d6 SA. Then 4 levels in Rogue for the charge and two more SA, then Levels in Slayer to get Monastic Legacy via the Ranger Combat Style Slayer Talent and keep my BaB up. The two levels of Monk would come in after I get Improved TWF since Pummeling Charge isn't much use until then anyway. The rest would probably go into Slayer, with one more level of Rogue after I get Greater TWF.
Since Unarmed Fighter frees me up a level by getting rid of the Monk levels though, I would also get a level in Inner Sea Pirate after I get Greater TWF too.
So I think you want to go unarmed fighter since they are proficient with all monk weapons, the seven-branched sword, something the monk isn't and it keeps BAB up.
I'm not sure of how useful pummeling charge with be with you, since you're not making separate hits you can't use your first one to trip them to make them flat-footed.
Is this for PFS or not?
Like I said, for the charge, it doesn't matter because Scout Rogue makes opponents count as Flatfooted when I charge. I would do all unarmed strikes with SA if I charged.
Unarmed Fighter is definitely better for the 1 level dip. I'll certainly be doing that instead.
I'm making it for a game, but I might bring it to PFS as well.
The seven branched sword he wants to use is a Monk Weapon. Which means it can be used as part of a Flurry of Blows. So in that respect it would work just fine.
Now, once he stops doing Flurry of Blows it functions as a normal two hand weapon, which means he cannot switch to two weapon fighting, by the rules set out in FAQ.
Yep, it's those pesky unwritten rules you have to watch out for.
The seven branched sword he wants to use is a Monk Weapon. Which means it can be used as part of a Flurry of Blows. So in that respect it would work just fine.
Now, once he stops doing Flurry of Blows it functions as a normal two hand weapon, which means he cannot switch to two weapon fighting, by the rules set out in FAQ.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but during Flirry you don't get 1.5 STR even on two-handed attacks, right?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but during Flirry you don't get 1.5 STR even on two-handed attacks, right?The seven branched sword he wants to use is a Monk Weapon. Which means it can be used as part of a Flurry of Blows. So in that respect it would work just fine.
Now, once he stops doing Flurry of Blows it functions as a normal two hand weapon, which means he cannot switch to two weapon fighting, by the rules set out in FAQ.
correct
correctCorrect me if I'm wrong, but during Flirry you don't get 1.5 STR even on two-handed attacks, right?The seven branched sword he wants to use is a Monk Weapon. Which means it can be used as part of a Flurry of Blows. So in that respect it would work just fine.
Now, once he stops doing Flurry of Blows it functions as a normal two hand weapon, which means he cannot switch to two weapon fighting, by the rules set out in FAQ.
Incorrect
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, he may make on additional attack, taking a -2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to use this ability). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
He does however get the full benefits of power attack should he choose to wield a two-handed weapon during a FoB and use power attack. Often a bad proposition due to the penalty to hit, but not always. But when you do hit you would get 3:1 damage to hit penalty ratio. So you got that going for you, which is nice.
I think maybe you misread. The bolding reflects what I wrote. Full STR on damage as opposed to 1.5.
I think maybe you misread. The bolding reflects what I wrote. Full STR on damage as opposed to 1.5.
Whoops, when I read it I didn't read the "don't".
I have failed. Now I must commit seppuku.