How would you build a swashbuckler who uses a rapier?
(My specific character is a wannabe-hero, glory-seeker type, but that seems to lend itself to a pretty generic build.)
As an example, a human at 5th-level with a 20 point buy:
strength 12, dexterity 16, constitution 14, intelligence 10, wisdom 8, charisma 16
traits: Irrepressible, Signature Moves
feats:
1: Weapon Focus (rapier), Power Attack
3: Combat Reflexes
4: Weapon Specialization (rapier)
5: Persuasive
Any critiques, or suggestions for feats or traits? I understand the class was just released so it might be hard to comment, but I thought I'd give it a shot.
(I also am considering the Inspired Blade archetype: Pros are +1 panache point, free Weapon Focus, and +1 to rapier damage. Cons are inability to regain panache from killing blows, and lack of any flexibility in terms of weapons.)
Str is too low for power attack. Need a 13.
Fruian Thistlefoot wrote: Str is too low for power attack. Need a 13. Good point, let me swap strength and con.
strength 14, dexterity 16, constitution 12, intelligence 10, wisdom 8, charisma 16
RumpinRufus wrote: How would you build a swashbuckler who uses a rapier?
(My specific character is a wannabe-hero, glory-seeker type, but that seems to lend itself to a pretty generic build.)
As an example, a human at 5th-level with a 20 point buy:
strength 12, dexterity 16, constitution 14, intelligence 10, wisdom 8, charisma 16
traits: Irrepressible, Signature Moves
feats:
1: Weapon Focus (rapier), Power Attack
3: Combat Reflexes
4: Weapon Specialization (rapier)
5: Persuasive
Any critiques, or suggestions for feats or traits? I understand the class was just released so it might be hard to comment, but I thought I'd give it a shot.
(I also am considering the Inspired Blade archetype: Pros are +1 panache point, free Weapon Focus, and +1 to rapier damage. Cons are inability to regain panache from killing blows, and lack of any flexibility in terms of weapons.)
I like the inspired blade archtype myself. Rapiers are perfect for a swashbuckler and with the Fencing Grace feat, that accidentally missed the book, but will be in Origins, they are amazing.
Honestly I do not see much of a downside, unless this is a Society game where you can not get that feat yet.
Whisperknives wrote: I like the inspired blade archtype myself. Rapiers are perfect for a swashbuckler and with the Fencing Grace feat, that accidentally missed the book, but will be in Origins, they are amazing.
Honestly I do not see much of a downside, unless this is a Society game where you can not get that feat yet.
I was wondering about that - I remember a Paizo blog post saying "it will be easy for Swashbucklers to add dex to damage", but then I couldn't find anything like that in the Advanced Class Guide. Nice to hear it's coming.
RumpinRufus wrote: Whisperknives wrote: I like the inspired blade archtype myself. Rapiers are perfect for a swashbuckler and with the Fencing Grace feat, that accidentally missed the book, but will be in Origins, they are amazing.
Honestly I do not see much of a downside, unless this is a Society game where you can not get that feat yet.
I was wondering about that - I remember a Paizo blog post saying "it will be easy for Swashbucklers to add dex to damage", but then I couldn't find anything like that in the Advanced Class Guide. Nice to hear it's coming. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rcnr?All-Hail-Fencing-Grace
That should help.
It was good enough for my DM. Hope it is for yours.
My only issues I have with my Rapier Specialist Swashbuckler is when the enemy is outside my range, or they are hard to get to. Ranged abilities are slim, very slim. I carry a crossbow and pray i do not have to use it.
Whisperknives wrote: My only issues I have with my Rapier Specialist Swashbuckler is when the enemy is outside my range, or they are hard to get to. Ranged abilities are slim, very slim. I carry a crossbow and pray i do not have to use it.
Eh, throwing shortspears with Precise Strike, good dex, and full BAB seems like a pretty decent option to me. Obviously nowhere near as good as a ranged-combat-focused character, but not terrible.
I currently have an ifrit swashbuckler I was planning on playing in a society game, but I am not sure I want to wait for yet another book to come out to be able to take Fencing Grace. Instead, I am considering making him a human, and taking EWP (wakizashi) and Slashing Grace at level 1. Then I'll take Piranha Strike at 3. That way I can leave Str at a 10 and use those points elsewhere in the build.
Well, I guess that begs the question of whether Swashbuckler's Finesse counts as Weapon Finesse for the purpose of pre-reqs. It would certainly be quite stupid to have to take the Weapon Finesse feat when I already have Swashbuckler's Finesse.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: I currently have an ifrit swashbuckler I was planning on playing in a society game, but I am not sure I want to wait for yet another book to come out to be able to take Fencing Grace. Instead, I am considering making him a human, and taking EWP (wakizashi) and Slashing Grace at level 1. Then I'll take Piranha Strike at 3. That way I can leave Str at a 10 and use those points elsewhere in the build.
Well, I guess that begs the question of whether Swashbuckler's Finesse counts as Weapon Finesse for the purpose of pre-reqs. It would certainly be quite stupid to have to take the Weapon Finesse feat when I already have Swashbuckler's Finesse.
Swashbuckler's Finesse counts as weapon finesse as far as feats go.
Yep, pulled up my ACG on my iPad and confirmed that. I also decided to go human Inspired Blade. I can't afford 13 Str in my build so I won't get Power Attack unless I dip ranger (hate multi-classing), but I think with Fencing Grace, free Improved Critical from swashbuckler, and the free bonus damage from Rapier Training and Precise Strike I'll be doing more than enough damage.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: Yep, pulled up my ACG on my iPad and confirmed that. I also decided to go human Inspired Blade. I can't afford 13 Str in my build so I won't get Power Attack unless I dip ranger (hate multi-classing), but I think with Fencing Grace, free Improved Critical from swashbuckler, and the free bonus damage from Rapier Training and Precise Strike I'll be doing more than enough damage. I am currently in a game playing a swashbuckler at level 5.
I have a 10 strength, and still have a damage of 1D6+15, however that is not where it gets really dangerous. Parry/Riposte is where I put out the big numbers. On my turn I only have one attack, but thanks to combat reflexes, I have the potential to parry/riposte 6 on theirs. Last game I got flanked by a pair TWF enemies. On my turn I stabbed 1 for 19, on their turn I killed them both with counter attacks an parried all but 1 attack.
Combat reflexes is a must. Also the weapon enchant Answering is great if you can afford it.
Saves are going to be a major issue though. I currently have a fort and reflex save of 3 each, with a cloak of resistance.
Whisperknives wrote: Combat reflexes is a must. Also the weapon enchant Answering is great if you can afford it.
Saves are going to be a major issue though. I currently have a fort and reflex save of 3 each, with a cloak of resistance.
What is the Answering enchantment, and which book is it from? I have been looking for a good weapon enchantment for the rapier (since swashbucklers don't need Keen.)
And, I'm assuming you mean your Will save is a 3, not your Reflex?
Whisperknives wrote:
I have a 10 strength, and still have a damage of 1D6+15, however that is not where it gets really dangerous. Parry/Riposte is where I put out the big numbers. On my turn I only have one attack, but thanks to combat reflexes, I have the potential to parry/riposte 6 on theirs. Last game I got flanked by a pair TWF enemies. On my turn I stabbed 1 for 19, on their turn I killed them both with counter attacks an parried all but 1 attack.
Oh, and isn't Riposte an immediate action? I thought you can only do one riposte per turn (but as many parries as you have AoOs.)
RumpinRufus wrote: Whisperknives wrote: Combat reflexes is a must. Also the weapon enchant Answering is great if you can afford it.
Saves are going to be a major issue though. I currently have a fort and reflex save of 3 each, with a cloak of resistance.
What is the Answering enchantment, and which book is it from? I have been looking for a good weapon enchantment for the rapier (since swashbucklers don't need Keen.)
And, I'm assuming you mean your Will save is a 3, not your Reflex? Yeah sorry, fort and will are both 3.
Yes my feats at 1st level are Combat Reflexes and Fabulist which gives me another way to regain Panache. If Origins comes out before I play my 4th PFS scenario I will almost certainly swap Fabulist out for Fencing Grace and take Fabulist down the road.
RumpinRufus wrote: Whisperknives wrote:
I have a 10 strength, and still have a damage of 1D6+15, however that is not where it gets really dangerous. Parry/Riposte is where I put out the big numbers. On my turn I only have one attack, but thanks to combat reflexes, I have the potential to parry/riposte 6 on theirs. Last game I got flanked by a pair TWF enemies. On my turn I stabbed 1 for 19, on their turn I killed them both with counter attacks an parried all but 1 attack.
Oh, and isn't Riposte an immediate action? I thought you can only do one riposte per turn (but as many parries as you have AoOs.) Crap, did not notice it was labeled as immediate action. That is a huge monkey wrench. Answering is in the ACG, make your weapon count as +5 for parry/riposte.
The parry is no action oner than spend an AoO, so that is many times a round, just riposte once.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: I currently have an ifrit swashbuckler I was planning on playing in a society game, but I am not sure I want to wait for yet another book to come out to be able to take Fencing Grace. Instead, I am considering making him a human, and taking EWP (wakizashi) and Slashing Grace at level 1. Then I'll take Piranha Strike at 3. That way I can leave Str at a 10 and use those points elsewhere in the build.
Well, I guess that begs the question of whether Swashbuckler's Finesse counts as Weapon Finesse for the purpose of pre-reqs. It would certainly be quite stupid to have to take the Weapon Finesse feat when I already have Swashbuckler's Finesse.
Unfortunately, Wakizashis are a light weapon, and Slashing Grace only applies to one-handed weapons. Slashing Grace doesn't apply to wakizashis by the Rules as Written.
Yeah I changed my mind anyway.
Is Power Attack worth it, do you think? At first it seemed like an obvious way to beef up damage output, but now I'm worrying that it's not worth the penalty that I'll take on Opportune Parry.
Daring Champion (Cavalier archetype) might actually be worth considering, if you want to up the damage, especially with challenges effect.
I made a lvl 5 inspired blade, I decided to dump strength (and power attack) and go for intelligence instead
str 10, dex 18, con 14, int 14, wis 8, cha 14
still haven't had the chance to test him out, but I think that I will crit often enough to replace any spent panache, at least at higher levels. Extra skill points don't hurt either :)
race: half-elf
feats:
combat expertise
exotic weapon prof (whip)
fencing grace
weapon specialization (rapier)
improved disarm
steadfast personality
traits:
elven heritage
threatening defender
Another thread about swashbucklers has me wanting to make a swashbuckler that uses a rhoka, which is a 1d8/18-20/x2 weapon that can be used with swashbuckler's finesse once you pick up Slashing Grace. I know it's only 1 extra point of damage on average, but it's so tempting.
RumpinRufus wrote: Is Power Attack worth it, do you think? At first it seemed like an obvious way to beef up damage output, but now I'm worrying that it's not worth the penalty that I'll take on Opportune Parry. To answer your question, yes it's worth it. If only to beef up your damage when fighting against precision damage immune monsters.
That being said, a swashbuckler has more to lose then using power attack and having power attack be an actual decision instead of automatic is OK in my book.
3 words, inspired blade archetype. period.
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