I've looked over both before and my personal preference is Battle. If you're looking for more combat versatility and damage, then Battle is the way to go. If you are looking for battlefield mobility, then Metal is what you want.
I also prefer battle. Surprising charge is fantastic (adding to the value, it is an immediate action, not a swift action, which means moving even when it is not your turn as an interrupt), war sight is excellent.
Don't underestimate the value of Battlefield Clarity revelation. A +4 re-roll on common magical effects that would disable you is gold.
Battle also offers Combat Healer, witch is surprisingly good when in a pinch.
Take a look at the wood mystery. No, seriously.
A revelation that gives armor that gets basically gets as good as full plate, with no speed loss and no ACP and save yourself a ton of gold. Pick the Magical Vestment spell to get an enhancement bonus on it. Another revelation that gives attack bonuses that mimic full BAB.
Wood mystery is very good for an archer, especially an elf (favored class bonus), because of Wood Bond (which works with bows).
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I used to think Wood made the best battle oracle. I still think it is very good (Wood Bond is huge for a combat character), ahead of both Metal and Battle.
I'm not sure I get the reverence for Wood bond, it's similar in value to the Weapon Mastery revelation from Battle mystery (similar attack bonus values, of course there are differences in weapons that can be used and inclusion of improved critical)
The main difference is that Wood bond is top 2 for Wood mystery, while Weapon Mastery ranks fourth (at best) for Battle mystery
Also keep in mind the Battle mystery spells are better suited to a combatant.
Heck it's been a while, but I remember thinking Ancestor would be as good as the latter two as well, but it has been a long time since I thought about these builds.
I would rank Ancestor #2 for a battle oracle build. Very strong mystery. You have about 4 revelations that are well-made for an Oracle specializing in combat (Spirit shield, Blood of heroes, Spirit of the warrior and ancestral weapon) and some decent mystery spells including heroism and Greater heroism)
But the new kid on the block, the Lunar Oracle is pretty much the best one to use for this now.
This statement is why I'm responding to your post. Would love for you to explain how Lunar Oracle is best for a Combat Oracle build.
If you combine Form of the Beast with Gift of Claw and Horn I could see a Lunar Oracle being in good at combat as a Druid who BAFFLINGLY didn't take the Natural Spell feat, and vastly inferior to a Druid who did.
The spells are not well suited to combat, not that you can cast them if you are using one of your only revelations that give you any combat ability at all.
Am I missing something?
You can do some of the same things with Dark Tapestry, another mystery I think contends with Battle and Metal in the pecking order, but Lunar is hands down the best if that style is something you can live with.
Dark Tapestry is IMO the best Oracle Mystery, though not for an Oracle specialized for combat (though it's OK for that). I particularly love this mystery for the amazing versatility. Last Oracle I made used Dark Tapestry (Halfing Oracle) and he was a friggin' Ninja.
I used to think Wood made the best battle oracle. I still think it is very good (Wood Bond is huge for a combat character), ahead of both Metal and Battle.I'm not sure I get the reverence for Wood bond, it's similar in value to the Weapon Mastery revelation from Battle mystery (similar attack bonus values, of course there are differences in weapons that can be used and inclusion of improved critical)
I wouldn't call the numbers similar: wood bond maxes out at a +5 to hit, while weapon mastery only gets up to +2. Further, a Wood Bond Oracle can still pick up weapon focus, while a Battle Oracle would have a harder time getting a competence bonus in-class. Admittedly, Wood Bond being a competence bonus does mean that it loses a lot of its appeal if you have a bard using Inspire Courage in your party.
But the new kid on the block, the Lunar Oracle is pretty much the best one to use for this now.This statement is why I'm responding to your post. Would love for you to explain how Lunar Oracle is best for a Combat Oracle build.
If you combine Form of the Beast with Gift of Claw and Horn I could see a Lunar Oracle being in good at combat as a Druid who BAFFLINGLY didn't take the Natural Spell feat, and vastly inferior to a Druid who did.
The spells are not well suited to combat, not that you can cast them if you are using one of your only revelations that give you any combat ability at all.
Am I missing something?
He might be referencing the trick of taking an animal companion, and then using the Elf/Aasimar favored class bonus to boost its effective level.
I'm not sure I'd call build the Lunar as a combat oracle, though. Prophetic Armor makes pumping your charisma and going for a caster oracle very tempting, especially if you combine it with other "Charisma to X" abilities.
And actually, now I'm kind of wanting to do this, because some of the other revelations give you other things to do besides just melee things to death.
After you get to a certain level, you will find that casting is better than melee anyway, leave that to the martial classes.
Ancestor mystery is nice, but some of its abilities come online too late to make it useful for a PFS game.
Have to agree with this. A lot of its best combat revelations are also tied to limited-use pools. Spirit of the Warrior is amazing for a combat oracle, but you don't get it until level 11, and then it's only for 5 rounds a day.
I wouldn't call the numbers similar: wood bond maxes out at a +5 to hit, while weapon mastery only gets up to +2.
Yep, at level 20 they aren't similar. I'm not used to playing level 20 games (I think most people aren't).
6 of your first 9 levels the bonuses are identical (1-4, 8-9)
12 out of first 14 levels the bonuses are within +1
To me that counts as similar since most campaigns I play complete by level 12 or 13. I tend to assume most people play the same way.
If you play high level campaigns, then I would agree the numbers are not similar.
Further, a Wood Bond Oracle can still pick up weapon focus
Not sure that's much of an advantage. Oracles are feat hungry. Most aren't going to select Weapon Focus (unless they get it included with a revelation of course ;) )
He might be referencing the trick of taking an animal companion, and then using the Elf/Aasimar favored class bonus to boost its effective level.
I'm not sure that would be overly effective. Animal companions provide diminishing returns as levels increase. Using the Elf/Aasimar FC bonus would slow that down, but the returns would still diminish I expect.
I'm not sure I'd call build the Lunar as a combat oracle, though. Prophetic Armor makes pumping your charisma and going for a caster oracle very tempting, especially if you combine it with other "Charisma to X" abilities.
I thought the same thing when I first read the mystery, though if you dump Dex (which is kind of the point) you end up with a crap-tastic initiative modifier which can be terrible for a caster. With a low point buy I could still see it being a good choice though.
I'd argue that a battle focused Wood Oracle would get Weapon focus early in his career. Levels 3 and 5 would be for Weapon Focus and Power Attack (order may vary).
Additionally Wood Bond affects more weapons so you aren't as bad if you switch weapons. Pulling out a bow isn't as painful for a wood oracle as it is for a battle oracle. If you are a elf, half elf, or in PFS any race with a trait to burn it's possible to become proficient with a bow.
Wood Oracles are more mobile, not having speed slowed when using the Wood Armor Revelation.
Battle mystery is a little more versatile, having more weapons to choose from with Skill at Arms, and pseudo pouncing is nothing to sneeze at, and if you want an oracle that specializes in maneuvers then it's the obvious choice. I would however say that if you are looking at an oracle that mixes it up in melee then Wood is a very strong choice and competes with other mysteries for top tier.
I also want to be a melee threat, and the Wood mystery seems to work best with a bow user. There just aren't enough primarily wooden weapons to make it worthwhile for a melee character. I will admit that the Wood Armor revelation is nice, but not nice enough to make up for poor weapon choice.
When it comes to Wood Bond melee weapons, a lot depends on what your GM would say qualifies as a mostly wooden weapon. If polearms count (not unreasonable, when spears are cited as an example by the ability) then plenty of good options open up.
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But the new kid on the block, the Lunar Oracle is pretty much the best one to use for this now.This statement is why I'm responding to your post. Would love for you to explain how Lunar Oracle is best for a Combat Oracle build.
If you combine Form of the Beast with Gift of Claw and Horn I could see a Lunar Oracle being in good at combat as a Druid who BAFFLINGLY didn't take the Natural Spell feat, and vastly inferior to a Druid who did.
The spells are not well suited to combat, not that you can cast them if you are using one of your only revelations that give you any combat ability at all.
Am I missing something?
What I'm doing with my Pitborn Tiefling Lunar Oracle is focusing on getting as many Natural Attacks as possible (I have primary racial claws + bite and eventually gore from GoCaH). I also took the Wrecker Curse and am ending up with a very focused Sunder build which is also excellent against Constructs. I'm also considering a few levels of Breaker/Numerian Liberator Barbarian for the synergies, but will probably pass.
Inflict casting works well with natural attacks, and the confusion rider on that looks nice -- haven't gotten high enough to test that out yet, though.
May not be the *best* combat oracle, but she does all right when she's focusing on doing her thing (ie wrecking stuff).
Battle is probably better mechanically but bringing a deaf metal oracle to the table is just a wealth of comedy gold.
What dude? I lost my hearing listening to se awesome bards, so you have to yell for me to hear you. Got it dude?
I'd argue that a battle focused Wood Oracle would get Weapon focus early in his career.
I would certainly have that argument with you. Weapon Focus is usually a decent choice, but with a feat-starved class, it's normally not your best choice.
Additionally Wood Bond affects more weapons so you aren't as bad if you switch weapons. Pulling out a bow isn't as painful for a wood oracle as it is for a battle oracle.
Are you thinking that an Oracle without archery feats is going to be a decent archer with "wood bond" alone? I expect that neither build should be pulling out a bow (unless the build is made for archery, in which case I would still go with battle mystery over wood btw, for surprising charge alone, though nature mystery might be a tempting archer option with a mounted-archer tilt)
Also, take a look at the wooden melee weapons. Club, Staff...they can work in a pinch, but aren't good weapons.
If you are a elf, half elf, or in PFS any race with a trait to burn it's possible to become proficient with a bow.
It's possible for any character to become proficient in a bow. My elf wizard was proficient in a bow. Archery in Pathfinder is very powerful if you build a character around it, decent if you devote feat slots to it, and pointless otherwise.
Wood Oracles are more mobile, not having speed slowed when using the Wood Armor Revelation.
The ways to improve mobility are exceedingly plentiful. Wood Armor is but one of those options. How many other options would you like me to list? I suspect I could list 10 good options to provide mobility equal or better than wood armor without much difficulty, or should I list 20?
and pseudo pouncing is nothing to sneeze at
Keep in mind that surprising charge is an immediate action which means you can use it to interrupt.
As in:
DM: "The wizard casts a spell"
Player: "I identify the spell being cast with spellcraft..." rolls a die
DM: "He's casting (insert save or die here) on the Oracle...make a Fort save"
Player: "Actually I'll use my surprising charge ability as an immediate action to interrupt and move around the corner breaking line of effect. I'll use a free action to laugh at the funny wizard."
DM: "oh."
It's SOOOOOOOOO much more than a pseudo pounce.
Now some of the magical beast forms should be capable of casting spells, though this is always a debate (like the elemental form one).
Elemental forms are not a magical beast form. Druids emulate the "Elemental Body" spells to take elemental forms. Lunar Oracles can't do this.
Can you name a decent Form of the Beast shape (legal for the Lunar Oracle) that could also cast spells without Natural Spell? (As in capable of somatic/verbal components)
You said "some", I would be impressed if you could name any.
Can you name just one?
Instead of comparing the Lunar Oracle to a druid, build one, pick some form from the magical beast list, then compare it to a Battle Oracle.
Right now there is NO comparison since one is a primary spellcaster and the other can't cast spells at all.
Or have you found that form of the beast that can cast spells yet? If so, list the creature and I'll do a comparison.
Inflict casting works well with natural attacks
...and how are you casting spells in form of the beast without the natural spell feat? If there's a legal form to do so, I think sunbeam would be interested!
Sunbeam/PH Unbalanced:
If a spell has a "V" component:
Verbal: A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice.
If a spell has a "S" component:
Somatic: A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand.
Also, any material or focus item required will be melded into your form and unusable.
Druids get around this with the "Natural spell" feat:
Natural Spell
You can cast spells even while in a form that cannot normally cast spells.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, wild shape class feature (Oracles don't have this)
Benefit: You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while using wild shape. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell.
You can also use any material components or focuses you possess, even if such items are melded within your current form. This feat does not permit the use of magic items while you are in a form that could not ordinarily use them, and you do not gain the ability to speak while using wild shape.
I'm curious as to what feats you would pick for a physical oracle at levels 3 and 5, assuming you did take the Wood mystery. The wood mystery doesn't feel like it pressures me to take Extra Revelation and Abundant Revelation feats as badly and since it doesn't, frees up feats for Power Attack and Weapon Focus.
Are you thinking that an Oracle without archery feats is going to be a decent archer with "wood bond" alone? I expect that neither build should be pulling out a bow (unless the build is made for archery, in which case I would still go with battle mystery over wood btw, for surprising charge alone, though nature mystery might be a tempting archer option with a mounted-archer tilt)
It's possible for any character to become proficient in a bow. My elf wizard was proficient in a bow. Archery in Pathfinder is very powerful if you build a character around it, decent if you devote feat slots to it, and pointless otherwise.
A 8-10 str wizard using a bow or javelin is not the same as a 18+ str character. The wizard is using spells with higher DCs due to having a higher casting stat and possibly feats taken to bolster them.
Also yes - I expect that melee oriented types have a ranged weapon of some sort. A longbow is typically the best choice but not the only one. I don't care if a fighter is a two-handed weapon archetype. He still should have a bow that matches his str rating especially in PFS when you don't know who your team will be.
Surprising Charge [...] It's SOOOOOOOOO much more than a pseudo pounce.
It is. I used the language that was used by the original poster but you are correct. Surprising charge is probably the best revelation that the battle mystery possess. You get abundant revelation for this - and probably a ring of revelation as well.
As far as mobility goes yeah there are plenty of options but there is usually a fairly hefty cost associated with it- either gold, level dips or actions. Still having good armor with no ACP or max dex is fairly nice. And as I mentioned earlier it's pretty hard to argue that Wood Armor can't be the target of Magical Vestment.
For the record I don't (and didn't) want to make the statement that Wood is hands down the best. I originally just wanted to present it as an option since I do feel it's strong but often glanced over and dismissed. And hey, how often does one get to debate Treantmonk :).
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Getting back to the original question, I had a lot of fun with a Haunted Human Battle Oracle of Gorum, albeit not in PFS. Started out with Skill at Arms and Surprising Charge from Extra Revelation, taking War Sight and Battlefield Clarity as he advanced. He was extremely effective in and out of combat, with loads of additional spells known from his favored class bonus from level 4 onward. Boots of Striding and Springing are a cheap and easy way for an extra 10ft of movement and are one of those items I have been putting on characters for decades. Had him going down the Eldritch Heritage line when he was retired due to RP reasons at 10th level.
Feat Selection:
1 Toughness
Extra Revelation
3 Power Attack
5 Furious Focus
7 Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) (Greensting Scorpion familiar for +2 initiative)
9 Improved Initiative
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Inflict casting works well with natural attacks...and how are you casting spells in form of the beast without the natural spell feat? If there's a legal form to do so, I think sunbeam would be interested!
I'm actually not using Form of the Beast. I get my natural attacks in my base form -- Tiefling claws, bite (and eventually gore) from Gift of Horn and Claw.
At level 7:
My revelations are Primal Companion (Crocodile), Prophetic Armor, Gift of Horn and Claw, and Touch of the Moon. Feats are Extra Revelation, Power Attack, Eldritch Claws, Improved Sunder.
Inflict Caster + buffs. Wrecker Curse. Trait that gives extra damage against constructs/when sundering.
Rather niche, focused on wrecking things. Damage with natural attacks is awfully nice -- and stellar against constructs -- but I take a lot of damage. As I said, a couple of levels of Breaker Barbarian would probably improve this, but I haven't decided yet if that's the way I want to go.
Now, since you know everything, and have a desperate need to prove it
I'm guessing you took something I said as a personal insult?
If so, you have my apologies. I don't know everything, but I do like to have fun debates. Obviously, was not a fun debate for you.
For the record, I think you bring up some interesting questions, but I'll skip responding specifically as I have a style which some (including you obviously) don't appreciate. Sorry about that.
I'm curious as to what feats you would pick for a physical oracle at levels 3 and 5, assuming you did take the Wood mystery.
That's a heavy question as it would rely on what kind of build I was going for, I can maybe provide a couple examples...
Obviously with differing combat styles there are a number of feats that are particularly useful. Naturally there are specific feat chains for mounted/melee/sword and board.
The less obvious (but really good) choices are those that don't provide the straight statistical bonuses, but instead provide flexibility in use of the combat skill you already have.
Personally, I think Step Up/Follow up/Step up and strike is a particularly nice feat chain.
Naturally, with a Battle Oracle, combat manoeuvres are an option, which of course require their own feat chains.
Sometimes it's a good idea to go for other kinds of feats. Abundant Revelations is a great way to make Surprising Charge even more surprising.
Combat Casting becomes a bit unnecessary at high levels, but at low levels it's great, especially for a melee/caster
It's not particularly creative, but Improved Initiative will often allow you to cast off a quick buff before you get close and personal with big baddies.
If I want a defensive-tank build, the halfling racial feat chain offers a number of nice defensive options that aid your allies as well. Add in Lucky Halfing and you can frustrate your GM as attacks and spells seem to never stick.
If I was to take Weapon Focus, I'm probably not taking it for the +1 to hit as much as I'm taking it to qualify for Dazzling Display, allowing a nice little debuff based off Charisma. Make a Half-Orc, add in Skill Focus and (the name escapes me right now, but the feat that allows both Str and Cha bonuses to Intimidation rolls) for fun.
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with a flat +1 to hit with your primary weapon, it's just that you can do a lot of things with feats to improve your flexibility and provide some cool abilities that add a lot of interest to a character beyond a small flat bonus.
Still having good armor with no ACP or max dex is fairly nice.
Agreed. Not suggesting it wasn't good, just not amazing. (Certainly not amazing enough to recommend an otherwise lackluster mystery on its merits alone)
My last Oracle had the similar shadow armor through Dark Tapestry. I liked it (that one gave stealth bonuses as well)
I'm actually not using Form of the Beast. I get my natural attacks in my base form -- Tiefling claws, bite (and eventually gore) from Gift of Horn and Claw.
I totally misunderstood. I thought you were making spell attacks in Form of the Beast. Got it now, thanks!
Yes, with that build, I can see why you went Lunar.
Having played a nagaji oracle of battle to the end of serpents skull (~17th level) I highly recommend them. Use a scythe. Trip, Destroy, Win
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I've always wondered what consists being able to use somatic components for casting.
If it is hands, or claws, how do royal nagas and coutals cast? Neither of them have hands, both are snakes.
Quite a number of magical beasts (kamadan, catobepas, chimera) speak a language, so spell casting as a magical beast should not be a problem, even though lunar oracled can never take natural spell.
Lack of material components should not matter with a polymorphic pouch, or simply eschew materials. If the form you take has no language, a ring of eloquence, or just by taking the deaf curse, you do not need to worry about verbal components of the spell.
I've always wondered what it would be like to adventure in the shape of a magical beast all day long...without natural spell.
I've played the Metal Oracle and the Battle Oracle. I found the Metal mystery much more useful. I found armor Mastery and Dance of blades better than anything you get from Battle. With battle Oracle was I could get weapon focus at 1st level but the problem was I didn't have martial weapons so if I picked that first I had to choose a simple weapon. But then I take Extra Revelation as feat to get the proficiencies. So it all works. Problem is now I have all the revelation I want out of the class by 3rd level except for the one where I need a high level.
With the metal Oracle I found it easier. I didn't need the martial weapons at 1st so I took Dance of Blades at 1st level as I couldn't afford medium armor. At 3rd I grabbed proficiencies and too weapon focus as feat. At 5th armor mastery going with Breast plate which allowed me to use my Dex of 4. Of course this was all before the Ultimate Campaign, now I'd do a Battle Oracle with weapon focus simple weapon the train it out to martial weapon at level 2 saving me a feat.
Regarding requirements for Somatic/Verbal components when using Beast Shape
I'm concerned we are getting off topic with this, therefore, I've started a new thread in the Rules Questions forum continuing our discussion (with specific quotes by you Just a Mort)
Feel free to weigh in there: