Advanced Class Hunter Questions - Tricks? Primal Hunter?

[Quentin Turner]

I've been interested in the Hunter and have a few questions.

First:

The Hunter gets an animal companion and therefore can teach it tricks. The interesting thing is they apparently can teach the companion the hunters' tricks from the skirmisher archetype from APG.

These tricks generally are really powerful comparitively as they are usually an exchange for spellcasting altogether - but I don't understand how they work when you're training your animal companion to know them.

first off, these are traditionally used by the ranger and the uses per day are based off of the ranger level and wis modifier. Since the animal companion is the one who learns the trick, is it based off of you (as the hunter) or is it based off of the animal companion (meaning often zero uses?)

Secondly, many of these impact an animal companion, but again I don't understand the perspective. Again, if the animal companion has the ability, how would a trick such as this work:

Sic 'Em (Ex): The Ranger can use this trick as a swift action. His animal companion makes one melee attack against an adjacent creature. The animal companion must be able to see and hear the Ranger to make this attack.

Does the Animal companion give herself an attack as a swift action? This seems crazy?

Am I just reading this wrong?

Second Question!

The Primal Hunter gives evolution points to their AC - is the implication that any evolution that requires a base form is off the table because animal companions don't technically have base forms? Or are they assigned via common sense (quadruped, biped, and serpentine is very easy to determine).

Any help would be much appreciated - i've been thinking about this all weekend and have no idea!

[Chess Pwn]

first answer. You add all the tricks into the list of tricks you can teach using handle animal. Like "attack" or "heel". There's no limit in using them. SO just like you could tell your companion to heel, you can tell it to Sic 'Em.

second answer. I think you're best off trying to go of common sense determination.

[Quentin Turner]

Chess Pwn wrote:

first answer. You add all the tricks into the list of tricks you can teach using handle animal. Like "attack" or "heel". There's no limit in using them. SO just like you could tell your companion to heel, you can tell it to Sic 'Em.

second answer. I think you're best off trying to go of common sense determination.

Second Answer - cool. I think we were going to play it that way, but because some of the most powerful abilities (constrict, pounce, etc) are tied to base form I wasn't sure if it was the intention to makes those off limits.

First Answer - HMM. I'm still perplexed by this. The reason is a lot of them are not things that are like "attack" or "heal". Let me give a couple examples:

Rattling Strike:

The Ranger can use this trick as a free action before he makes a melee attack. If the attack hits, the target is shaken for 1d4 rounds.

Hobbling Attack:

The Ranger can use this trick as a free action when he hits with an attack. The target of the attack’s land speed is reduced by 1/2 for 1d4 rounds.

So the Hunter could as a free action out of turn allow his AC to do those terrible conditions as many time as possible? Can't you have multiple free actions? If there is no limit to use, why can't you use both at the same time for every attack? It seems way too powerful.

Other ones have different problems:

Bolster Companion:

The Ranger can use this trick as an immediate action when his animal companion is hit with an attack or a combat maneuver. The companion’s AC and combat maneuver defense increase by +4 for the purposes of that attack. If the attack still hits, the animal companion only takes half damage (if any). The animal companion must be able to see and hear the Ranger to benefit from this trick.

So .... whenever the AC is hit it gets that as an immediate action?

There would simply need to be a limit. It can't possibly be that you could use those free actions / swift actions / immediate actions indefinitely with no limitation, especially when the archetype they come from has a built in limitation of 1/2 ranger level + wis mod uses.

The problem is it doesn't specify, do you use your hunter's level? Because the AC is the one learning the trick, not you, do you use the AC's hit die? They don't really have levels at all. Also, if you replace 'ranger' with 'animal companion', some of them (like Sic Em' and Bolster Campanion, as well as Heel, etc) don't work because if it's the Animal Companion that learns the trick (not the hunter) they don't HAVE an animal companion. If it is in fact the hunter that learns the trick, They would potential gain those attack benefits which is not the point of teaching a trick to a companion.

[Derwalt]

I'm curious as well. I've clicked FAQ on the original post. I'll invite others to do the same.

[AncientSpark]

TL;DR about Hunter's Tricks and Primal Companion base forms; no one really knows. Both of them are improperly explained. These are both pretty serious FAQ candidates.

[donato]

From what I can see, the tricks a skirmisher gets are distinct from a trick an animal companion can learn. They are specifically referred to as 'hunter's tricks' while the ones an animal companion uses is only known as a 'trick.' Also, the 'hunter's tricks' are specifically learned by the ranger where a 'trick' is learned by the companion itself.

I would say that a hunter can't gain a 'hunter's trick' that the skirmisher can gain.

[cartmanbeck]

donato wrote:

From what I can see, the tricks a skirmisher gets are distinct from a trick an animal companion can learn. They are specifically referred to as 'hunter's tricks' while the ones an animal companion uses is only known as a 'trick.' Also, the 'hunter's tricks' are specifically learned by the ranger where a 'trick' is learned by the companion itself.

I would say that a hunter can't gain a 'hunter's trick' that the skirmisher can gain.

I agree, but it says that you can teach your companion those tricks... so can a companion gain a Hunter's trick that would normally be gained by the Skirmisher himself? *brain asplode*

[donato]

cartmanbeck wrote:

donato wrote:

From what I can see, the tricks a skirmisher gets are distinct from a trick an animal companion can learn. They are specifically referred to as 'hunter's tricks' while the ones an animal companion uses is only known as a 'trick.' Also, the 'hunter's tricks' are specifically learned by the ranger where a 'trick' is learned by the companion itself.

I would say that a hunter can't gain a 'hunter's trick' that the skirmisher can gain.

I agree, but it says that you can teach your companion those tricks... so can a companion gain a Hunter's trick that would normally be gained by the Skirmisher himself? *brain asplode*

The archetype never makes mention of teaching the animal companion a hunter's trick.

PRD wrote:

Hunter's Tricks: At 5th level, a skirmisher ranger learns the use of hunter's tricks, which typically grant a boon or bonus to the ranger or a nearby ally. At 5th level, the ranger learns one trick, selected from the list below. At 7th level, and every two levels thereafter, he learns another trick. A ranger can use these tricks a total number of times per day equal to 1/2 his ranger level + his Wisdom modifier. Tricks are usually swift actions, but sometimes move or free actions that modify a standard action, usually an attack action. Once a trick is chosen, it can't be retrained. A ranger cannot select an individual trick more than once. This ability replaces the ranger's spells class feature. Skirmishers do not gain any spells or spellcasting ability, do not have a caster level, and cannot use spell trigger and spell completion magic items.

I've bolded some key sections of the archetype. This is specifically saying that the ranger is the one who learns the hunter's tricks. The ranger is the one who uses the hunter's tricks. Never does it make mention of the animal companion learn these. It has to work this way, otherwise specific hunter's tricks don't work properly.

PRD wrote:

Trick Shot (Ex): As a standard action, the ranger can make a ranged attack that ignores concealment (but not total concealment), soft cover, and partial cover

This, along with a large number of the hunter's tricks specifically refer to the ranger, reaffirming that the ranger is intended to be the one using these tricks.

[cartmanbeck]

No no, I'm not talking about in the Skirmisher archetype, I'm saying in the Hunter description, it says that you can teach your companion Hunter's Tricks from the Skirmisher archetype.

Hunter ACG wrote:

Animal Companion (Ex): At 1st level, a hunter forms a bond with an animal companion. A hunter may begin play with any of the animals available to a druid. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the hunter on her adventures. This ability functions like the druid animal companion ability (which is part of the nature bond class feature). The hunter’s effective druid level is equal to her hunter level. If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the companion’s statistics and abilities. A hunter may teach her companion hunter’s tricks from the skirmisher ranger archetype (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 128) instead of standard tricks.

So while I agree that many of the tricks are intended to be gained and used by the ranger who has the archetype, the Hunter seemingly teaches them to his companion either way.

[donato]

cartmanbeck wrote:

No no, I'm not talking about in the Skirmisher archetype, I'm saying in the Hunter description, it says that you can teach your companion Hunter's Tricks from the Skirmisher archetype.

Hunter ACG wrote:

Animal Companion (Ex): At 1st level, a hunter forms a bond with an animal companion. A hunter may begin play with any of the animals available to a druid. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the hunter on her adventures. This ability functions like the druid animal companion ability (which is part of the nature bond class feature). The hunter’s effective druid level is equal to her hunter level. If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the companion’s statistics and abilities. A hunter may teach her companion hunter’s tricks from the skirmisher ranger archetype (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 128) instead of standard tricks.

So while I agree that many of the tricks are intended to be gained and used by the ranger who has the archetype, the Hunter seemingly teaches them to his companion either way.

Oh. OH!

Well, this is some tomfoolery. I don't know what to say about this.

Hmm. :\

[Michael Sayre]

My reading is that it is the companion, not the Hunter, who knows the trick, so while the AnC can learn tricks off the Skirmisher list, many of them are "off limits" since the companion isn't capable of performing them or would require a companion of its own to execute them. So Sic 'em and Trick Shot won't work, but Aiding Attack would.

[cartmanbeck]

See, I read it the other way, in that Sic'em and Trick Shot are some of the FEW that should be guaranteed to be allowed, because it's something that the Hunter and the Companion work together on. If it only says that the Skirmisher gains a benefit, I would think that the companion could not use it. I dunno, all I know at this point is that it really needs to be clarified...

[Michael Sayre]

cartmanbeck wrote:

See, I read it the other way, in that Sic'em and Trick Shot are some of the FEW that should be guaranteed to be allowed, because it's something that the Hunter and the Companion work together on. If it only says that the Skirmisher gains a benefit, I would think that the companion could not use it. I dunno, all I know at this point is that it really needs to be clarified...

It's the AnC learning the trick, not the Hunter. That being the case, the tricks have to be ones the pet is physically capable of performing, so since the AnC doesn't have its own pet and can't fire a bow, those would be off the table under the current presentation of the rules.

[mswbear]

It is a question that needs to be further clarified. It was poor wording by Paizo and eventually will see a clarification. I imagine that an errata is not too far off for the ACG as there are a few hiccups such as this. It wouldn't surprise me if the Hunter gets that "hunter's trick" ability in a reprinting of the ACG after an errata is released. For now it should definitely be answered in the forums as it is a pretty hot topic and definitely impacts the power and abilities of the class.

[Jinjifra]

The other odd thing is it isn't really clear whether there is any limit on their use. The Skirmisher gets 1/2 level + wisdom modifier, the hunter looks like its unlimited. So if it's the AnC that gets the tricks, (which is how I'm reading it) you can take the 4 free actions that modify an attack and use them for every attack the AnC makes.

[Michael Sayre]

Jinjifra wrote:

The other odd thing is it isn't really clear whether there is any limit on their use. The Skirmisher gets 1/2 level + wisdom modifier, the hunter looks like its unlimited. So if it's the AnC that gets the tricks, (which is how I'm reading it) you can take the 4 free actions that modify an attack and use them for every attack the AnC makes.

Which is strong, but there's other factors that make it seem like not only is that intentional, but still well balanced.

Remember:

1) You're taking them in place of your AnC's normal tricks. That limits how many of these you can really learn and still have reasonable control over your AnC, since they'll be competing for space with tricks like Attack (needs to be taken twice for full functionality), Flank (pretty much essential), and heaven forbid you want to do something like ride your AnC which requires Combat training consisting of attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel.

2) You still have to be able to command your AnC to perform them. Link isn't enough to get the job done all by itself, so you're still putting points in Handle Animal and maintaining at least a 10 in CHA if you don't want to risk blowing a basic command. This gets even more sever if you overload on Skirmisher tricks and have to Push your AnC for basic commands, which requires a DC 25 check.

I think the biggest factor is competing resources. You probably want, at a bare minimum, combat training + the additional attack training + flank, which is 8 tricks right out of the gate.

[mswbear]

Jinjifra wrote:

The other odd thing is it isn't really clear whether there is any limit on their use. The Skirmisher gets 1/2 level + wisdom modifier, the hunter looks like its unlimited. So if it's the AnC that gets the tricks, (which is how I'm reading it) you can take the 4 free actions that modify an attack and use them for every attack the AnC makes.

Remember that a ranger, a hunter, and a druid can direct their animal companion as a free action (other classes unless otherwise stated in their description have to use a standard action).

An AnC doesn't just do stuff because you want them to. They have to have access to the trick and have it learned. In other words if for some reason you haven't taught your AnC "attack" it is a standard action to push the AnC to "attack" as per the normal rules for Handle Animal. Otherwise it is a free action Handle Animal Check with a DC 10.

If your animal companion goes before you in the initiative order, that means telling it to do something on the following round with it wasting an action (unless attacked) during its initial round. Of course you can always hold your action to better coordinate with the animal companion by going directly before it but it is still slightly cumbersome if you are trying to pull off some flanking crazy goodness. (Though this usually means that the player is going to hold actions on a semi regular basis to sync with their companion here and there).

To the best that I can figure out is that it works one of two ways...

1) The Hunter's animal companion acts as the "ranger" in the Hunter's Tricks options. This means that they can only use the tricks that grant them a bonus or ability and not the tricks that allow them to influence their AnC...as they don't have one. The Hunter will still have to Handle Animal DC 10 Check to tell their AnC to "Chameleon Step", etc. but in general it is a "trick" their AnC knows and can be easily directed to do. The AnC can do these tricks as many times as it is directed to do so.

2) As above except that the animal companion uses its racial hit dice as "1/2 it's level" and then adds its wisdom modifier as appropriate giving it limited uses to the "hunter's tricks" but still only useable as directed.

Option one is very clearly amazballs where as option 2 is very clearly terrible

I can't imagine teaching an AnC a trick like Sic' em as the Anc doesn't have its own AnC and the Hunter themselves doesn't have the "Hunter's Trick" ability.

[Michael Sayre]

mswbear wrote:

Remember that a ranger, a hunter, and a druid can direct their animal companion as a free action (other classes unless otherwise stated in their description have to use a standard action).

An AnC doesn't just do stuff because you want them to. They have to have access to the trick and have it learned. In other words if for some reason you haven't taught your AnC "attack" it is a standard action to push the AnC to "attack" as per the normal rules for Handle Animal. Otherwise it is a free action Handle Animal Check with a DC 10.

If your animal companion goes before you in the initiative order, that means telling it to do something on the following round with it wasting an action (unless attacked) during its initial round. Of course you can always hold your action to better coordinate with the animal companion by going directly before it but it is still slightly cumbersome if you are trying to pull off some flanking crazy goodness. (Though this usually means that the player is going to hold actions on a semi regular basis to sync with their companion here and there).

To the best that I can figure out is that it works one of two ways...

1) The Hunter's animal companion acts as the "ranger" in the Hunter's Tricks options. This means that they can only use the tricks that grant them a bonus or ability and not the tricks that allow them to influence their AnC...as they don't have one. The Hunter will still have to Handle Animal DC 10 Check to tell their AnC to "Chameleon Step", etc. but in general it is a "trick" their AnC knows and can be easily directed to do. The AnC can do these tricks as many times as it is directed to do...

I prefer your option 1, because while it makes the Hunter a little strong at 1st level, it still has the various limitations discussed (requires checks, competes with necessary commands, increased limitations on an already limited list), and it's the interpretation that actually keeps the Hunter competitive as he goes up in levels. I'd rather have him a little strong during the first 5 levels when lots of classes are capable of being quite strong, than have him drop off into non-competiveness once he leaves those levels.

This is a technical class. It gives up the 7-9th level spells and Wildshaping of one of its parent classes, and the full BAB and huge attack, damage, skill, and initiative bonuses of its other parent. It should have a companion that's "amazballs", because it is extremely reliant on that companion for effectiveness. If the companion dies, the Hunter isn't worthless, but he does lose 50% or more of his effectiveness. Those minute/level nature's ally spells are not a replacement for what he lost, nor is a minor stat boost.

[mswbear]

Ssalarn wrote:

I prefer your option 1, because while it makes the Hunter a little strong at 1st level, it still has the various limitations discussed (requires checks, competes with necessary commands, increased limitations on an already limited list), and it's the interpretation that actually keeps the Hunter competitive as he goes up in levels. I'd...

I agree and honestly I think it is what makes the most sense but I still think that it should be further clarified so there is no confusion. In a home game I would run it as my option 1 but in PFS (which is what I play most often because of time constraints and other factors) it is murky and I don't want it shifting from one table to the next.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

Some clarification is really needed especially regarding the evolutions. As written the limit to eidolon attacks only applies to attacks gained from evolutions, so once you add some evolutions to an animal companion who already has natural attacks (like a large cat), it can gain a lot of attacks...

[Slacker2010]

It is option one. Sadly, it should be somewhere between option 1 and option 2. They should have put a use limit on these tricks, say 3 + hunter level or something like that.

[Marc Radle]

Yeah, I love Paizo but I must admit the whole hunter can teach his animal companion hunters' tricks from the skirmisher archetype is unfortunately very confusing, problematic and, I hate to say it, poorly designed.

I suspect there is a pretty extensive ACG errata brewing right now within the walls of Paizo and I really hope this is on it (of course, given the number of FAQ requests so far, I'm betting it will be!)

[Gronka]

This definietely needs some clarification. Some of it seems like common sense, but common sense can point to different rulings as was pointed out here. I'm playing a primal hunter/rogue with a few of the tricks and evolutions to make my AC more stealthy, but I've been wary about using the tricks much until there is at least something about the number of times per day.

[Zautos']

Have this bin clarified yet?

[dragonhunterq]

There was an errata preview (here if I've done it right) that indicated it was 1/2 animal companions HD + wis/day. Thats the only thing I've seen though.

[alexd1976]

I can't find any official errata on this, anyone got a link?

[Imbicatus]

The official errata hasn't been released yet, and won't until the Second Printing. It should be SOON, but we don't know when. Hopefully before Gen Con.

[claudekennilol]

Mark Seifter wrote:

My post will make more sense with the ACG errata, which will hopefully be very soon (Erik posted a guarantee that it'll be before Gencon!)

(emphasis mine)

Full context HERE