Change Shape (Alter Self) clarification


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Quote:

Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. ... This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely.

Polymorph: Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.

I am looking at a Succubus with the Change Shape (Alter Self) ability. She wants to disguise herself as a human, so she uses Change Shape to become a Human female who goes by the name of Gail. She reverts to her natural form to fly somewhere.

Can she change into "Gail"'s form again?

She is not changing to look like a specific real Human. She just wants the same form she took before, but the rules state it is always generic.


There's a much stronger case to be made for changing into "Gail" again to be her only option, honestly.

Generic doesn't mean random. You can't specifically impersonate someone else with it (although you can get a good start on a disguise) but you can absolutely make yourself look the same every time you use it.

There's plenty of magically disguised villains in Paizo published adventures to back up the consistency angle.


Googleshng wrote:

There's a much stronger case to be made for changing into "Gail" again to be her only option, honestly.

Generic doesn't mean random. You can't specifically impersonate someone else with it (although you can get a good start on a disguise) but you can absolutely make yourself look the same every time you use it.

There's plenty of magically disguised villains in Paizo published adventures to back up the consistency angle.

Polymorph specifically states that fine details can be controlled, which would strongly suggest to me that different appearances can be obtained. I don't see the case for only looking like "Gail". Could you clarify please?


Polymorph states that the effect is cannot be specific unless the spell or ability specifies that it can ("Unless otherwise noted"). Change Shape specifies that you can look like a specific individual - meaning that if "Gail" was a real person at one point, her - or looking like someone simply of the race she's polymorphing into, which could be the same image every time if she wished, or one that is different every time, depending on her whim. This is both RAW and RAI.


gigyas6 wrote:
Polymorph states that the effect is cannot be specific unless the spell or ability specifies that it can ("Unless otherwise noted"). Change Shape specifies that you can look like a specific individual - meaning that if "Gail" was a real person at one point, her - or looking like someone simply of the race she's polymorphing into, which could be the same image every time if she wished, or one that is different every time, depending on her whim. This is both RAW and RAI.

I know it states you can change into a specific creature, but I took this to mean a human or an elf. Does it actually state "specific individual" somewhere? That would solve all my problems :)


If it cannot be specific per the description, then the ability can be used to gain a +10 bonus on Diguise checks to look like a specific creature.


If Gail is not a real person but rather a collection of characteristics defined, created, and assembled by the Caster- can the caster repeatedly turn into this same collection of characteristics? (i.e. "Gail")

Its rather vague, IMO. While it says you have some control (without saying how much or over what exactly) it further states that you are always a generic member member of the species.

I would personally rule that "generic member" means you can't look like King George III but that if you created a specific look (from your imagination) then you could always return to it.

The annoying part would be if you found someone who looked like what you assembled your alter ego to look like- because then you couldn't use it anymore. :P
(more of a "DM Hosed you" sort of thing or a "how the spell would function if the game were real" sort of thing rather than an actual issue.)

-S


Hari Outten wrote:

I know it states you can change into a specific creature, but I took this to mean a human or an elf. Does it actually state "specific individual" somewhere? That would solve all my problems :)

I double-checked with Doppleganger (reknown for being able to change into specific people), and Doppleganger actually states that it can use change shape- but can because a specific individual. Since it says that there and not here, then I'm gonna go ahead and say "no" and retract my prior statement in that clause.

However, you can still have the succubus look "Human" - one of her own creation. I'd argue she'd be able to look like herself, just not as a demon - a human form of what she normally looks like (and many succubus are run like this). I'd also argue that she could have multiple personas that she could adopt.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

There are many examples both in published modules and in literature of shape-changing creatures (demons, etc) that consistently adopt the same form. So although they (you) can't mimic a specific existing person (real or dead), it seems entirely plausible that you can consistently adopt the same form that you have previously adopted, if you wish. Nothing in the ability descriptions I've seen contradicts this.

OTOH, you could presumably choose to appear in a different form if you wished, or even have a portfolio of alternate forms, if the creature (or you) were intelligent and crafty enough. Though just like the liar who need a really good memory to remember which lies you've told to whom, you would need to be a really good shapechanger to manage multiple consistent forms.

Of course that is all logical extrapolation, not specified in RAW. I'll be interested in seeing if anyone finds specific rules language that contradicts the above.

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