Spelleater Bloodrager Archetype inquiery

[Himokl]

The spell eater bloodrager archetype gives you following class feature:

"Blood of Life (Su): A spelleater’s blood empowers him
to slowly recover from his wounds. At 2nd level, while
bloodraging a spelleater gains fast healing 1 (Bestiary 300).
At 7th level and every 3 levels thereafter, this increases
by 1 (to a maximum of fast healing 6 at 19th level). If the
spelleater gains an increase to damage reduction from a
bloodline, feat, or other ability, he is considered to have
an effective damage reduction of 0, and the increase is
instead added to this effective damage reduction. This
ability replaces uncanny dodge and damage reduction."

Their seems to be some confusion over this effect between people.
I am reading the effect as if you take a feat/ability etc. that modifies damage reduction you still get that increased damage reduction but the increase starts from 0 (Aka a spelleater has DR 0/- normally)

For example a 10th level bloodrager normally has DR 2/-. One with this archetype would have Fast Healing 3 instead. If the orginal bloodrager took increased damage reduction that DR would go to DR 3/-. If the spelleater took it he would still have Fast Healing 3 but would also now have DR 1/-.

Others seem to be reading into the ability and a possible typo due to the possibly convoluted language used. They claim that any increase to DR should instead increase your fast healing. (I'll let them comment more below)

Just wanted to confirm (or disprove) my interpretation of the ability as written.

[Verzen]

Basically the reason I think there MUST be a typo is that at level 2, the spelleater already has an effective damage reduction of 0.

Plus anyone who uses basic logic could deduce that..

If spelleater gains an increase to damage reduction from (abilities, feats, bloodlines) he is considered to have an effective damage reduction of 0.

So

If spelleater gains (insert DR ability) (where DR is a variable)
then DR = 0
add +1 DR

That makes no sense to me... at all... Why include the line in the first place?

My friend here says that it's to reduce the DR that bloodragers have at 10, but is DR 1/- not 'other ability' ? So it would reduce it to 0 (what it was before any DR ability), then add 1 to the total?

OR here is another interpretation I just thought of... Could it also be that damage reduction from other sources just no longer works with those other sources and only works while bloodraging? All other sources DR is reduces to 0 'except' while bloodraging.

There are multiple ways to understand this ability.

[Himokl]

If that line didn't exist at level two the spelleater wouldn't have damage reduction at all which isn't the same thing as having effective damage reduction of 0/-.

An example of this in the context of pathfinder is an undead creature's constitution score (generally) doesn't exist. It isn't 0, it just isn't there at all.

[Chess Pwn]

Also note that most of the abilities that stack say increase your classes DR ability. So unless it was in there to say he had "DR from a class" He wouldn't be able to increase it.

[Verzen]

But it's the order of operations. IF he gains DR, THEN it changes his DR to 0 then he gains +1 DR. If this was actually a computer program, whenever he gained damage reduction from a source, it would reduce to zero, then increase to 1, no matter how much dmg reduction he had =P Making his max dmg reduction equal 1 all the time.. according to computer logic.

[Chess Pwn]

Verzen wrote:

But it's the order of operations. IF he gains DR, THEN it changes his DR to 0 then he gains +1 DR. If this was actually a computer program, whenever he gained damage reduction from a source, it would reduce to zero, then increase to 1, no matter how much dmg reduction he had =P Making his max dmg reduction equal 1 all the time.. according to computer logic.

In pathfinder though there isn't order of operations, all ways should lead the same. Also it's in a class ability meaning it's only tied to that class. So his Barbarian effect DR is 0. Other sources aren't modified by this. Only the Barbarian's base DR, which as Himokl pointed out, having DR/0 is different then having no DR.

[Verzen]

"So his Barbarian effect DR is 0"

Where does it say this?

ALSO if he never gains another DR, does he just maintain his class DR? Does it only hit zero when he gains another source of DR?

[Chess Pwn]

Verzen wrote:

"So his Barbarian effect DR is 0"

Where does it say this?

ALSO if he never gains another DR, does he just maintain his class DR? Does it only hit zero when he gains another source of DR?

It says it's his bloodrager DR because it's in the class ability. And since it replaces the normal DR gained from his class, the Bloodrager wont have any DR. So he doesn't have a class DR, it was replaced. And if he gains it from another source it's not effected by this ability.

[Half Brick In a Sock]

Quote:

Others seem to be reading into the ability and a possible typo due to the possibly convoluted language used. They claim that any increase to DR should instead increase your fast healing. (I'll let them comment more below)

This is my reading.

Quote:

If the spelleater gains an increase to damage reduction ... he is considered to have an effective damage reduction of 0, and the increase is

instead added to this effective damage reduction

So if you gain any bonus to DR, you have no effective DR, and instead of the DR increase being applied to your DR, it is applied to your fast healing.

[Verzen]

Quote:

It says it's his bloodrager DR because it's in the class ability. And since it replaces the normal DR gained from his class, the Bloodrager wont have any DR. So he doesn't have a class DR, it was replaced. And if he gains it from another source it's not effected by this ability.

If this is the case, then it would have said that in less confusing wording. It would have said, "The DR from the Bloodrager's class ability is effectively zero, but can be increased from other sources." It does not say that. You are making assumptions.

[Calth]

Half Brick In a Sock wrote:

Quote:

Others seem to be reading into the ability and a possible typo due to the possibly convoluted language used. They claim that any increase to DR should instead increase your fast healing. (I'll let them comment more below)

This is my reading.

Quote:

If the spelleater gains an increase to damage reduction ... he is considered to have an effective damage reduction of 0, and the increase is

instead added to this effective damage reduction

So if you gain any bonus to DR, you have no effective DR, and instead of the DR increase being applied to your DR, it is applied to your fast healing.

Normally, in order to increase dr you have to have DR. The Increased Damage Reduction rage power does nothing for a character without damage reduction. Spell eater gives you DR/- 0. So instead of doing nothing, increased damage reduction rage power gives you DR/- 1. Thats the instead. It has nothing to do with the fast healing granted by the class feature. The whole point is too still let you take advantage of all the existing barbarian DR/- boosters. Compare it to steelblood. Steelblood does not have that language, so none of the feats and powers that boost barbarian DR/- would do anything for the steelblood, but would for the spell eater.

[Calth]

Verzen wrote:

Quote:

It says it's his bloodrager DR because it's in the class ability. And since it replaces the normal DR gained from his class, the Bloodrager wont have any DR. So he doesn't have a class DR, it was replaced. And if he gains it from another source it's not effected by this ability.

If this is the case, then it would have said that in less confusing wording. It would have said, "The DR from the Bloodrager's class ability is effectively zero, but can be increased from other sources." It does not say that. You are making assumptions.

But that is what it says:

If the
spelleater gains an increase to damage reduction from a
bloodline, feat, or other ability, he is considered to have
an effective damage reduction of 0, and the increase is
instead added to this effective damage reduction.

That is equivalent to the statement you wrote.

[Half Brick In a Sock]

Calth wrote:

Normally, in order to increase dr you have to have DR. The Increased Damage Reduction rage power does nothing for a character without damage reduction. Spell eater gives you DR/- 0. So instead of doing nothing, increased damage reduction rage power gives you DR/- 1. Thats the instead. It has nothing to do with the fast healing granted by the class feature. The whole point is too still let you take advantage of all the existing barbarian DR/- boosters. Compare it to steelblood. Steelblood does not have that language, so none of the feats and powers that boost barbarian DR/- would do anything for the steelblood, but would for the spell eater.

Ok, I see what you mean now. The "this effective damage reduction" refers to the DR/- 0, and not the fast healing. I think you're right.

[Chess Pwn]

Calth wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Quote:

It says it's his bloodrager DR because it's in the class ability. And since it replaces the normal DR gained from his class, the Bloodrager wont have any DR. So he doesn't have a class DR, it was replaced. And if he gains it from another source it's not effected by this ability.

If this is the case, then it would have said that in less confusing wording. It would have said, "The DR from the Bloodrager's class ability is effectively zero, but can be increased from other sources." It does not say that. You are making assumptions.

But that is what it says:

If the
spelleater gains an increase to damage reduction from a
bloodline, feat, or other ability, he is considered to have
an effective damage reduction of 0, and the increase is
instead added to this effective damage reduction.

That is equivalent to the statement you wrote.

I agree, things in class abilities are tied to that class. That's why the use of the word "Level" means class level. So because of that base ruling that all class things are for that class saying, "The DR from the Bloodrager's class ability is effectively zero" and "he is considered to have an effective damage reduction of 0" are the same. HE is the Bloodrager.

If we weren't already told by Paizo that class abilities are referring only to the class then you're right, it would be an assumption. But since we've been told by Paizo that you read it as referring to the class you do that with no assumptions.

[Verzen]

Quote:

That is equivalent to the statement you wrote.

No it's not. I said "but can be increased from other sources."

The way they worded it is entirely different and confusing.

[Drakxldp]

I came to this page trying to find how people were reading this myself and I think I understand the wording now that I have seen a few other people's ideas. I think its less of a command and more of an f(x) function.

They did not feel the need to make a whole chapter of items and feats JUST for the bloodrager and since he is a meeting of the Berserker and Sorcerer, they had to make them able to use the existing feats, items, and abilities. Think in terms of Min/Max (not saying I approve but it makes sense when you do). ANY combo of classes and abilities is possible, they want people to play their own creations, so you want things to balance and flow. Enter OTHER sources of DR.

Dont look at it as it was said earlier (Dr=0+1, DR=0+1, ect.) but as DR = (x)+(y)+(z), ect. The "Effective Damage Reduction" listed by this ablilty is talking about the DR granted by the Spelleater feature. In any other case, you LOSE Damage Reduction to gain Blood of Life, but it makes sure you know WHEN you gain it from any other source (like feats that tend to require you to HAVE DR to raise it; another example of why this line exists) you basically HAVE a DR 0. So the (x) is your DR gained from Blood of Life (effective DR from its point of view) and any other source is ADDED to the effective DR. So it goes to DR = (Spelleater or 0) + (other class feature) + (feats) ect. Each time you gain a new source of DR, you plug this new value into the ever growing equation.

The oddly worded line is a detailed way of saying "you lose the Damage Reduction ability from levels 7, 10, 13, 16, and 19 but for any future reference you have a base DR of 0." Because a DR/- is non-existant but a DR/0 means you HAVE DR and can therefor take steps to RAISE it, at the expense of a feat that would enhance something else or another class feature at the expense of going to level 20 as a pure bloodrager Spelleater.

This is, however, my understanding and can be as flawed as any other, but I do hope this makes as much sense to someone else as it does to me.

[nennafir]

I am very confused here but...

If I take (on a spelleater) increased damage reduction feat, does that increase fast healing?

[Chess Pwn]

no

Spelleater has DR 0 so anything that increases DR increases this DR 0.