Does Precise Strike work with Arcane Deed?

[tivadar27]

So actually, I thought it was specifically stated that for anything that says "ClassName level" or "level" as part of a class ability description, that always meant "Class Level", no matter what. If you're getting the ability from your Magus class ability (you are), then it would use your Magus level. That's RAW, based on previous rulings, as I remember them. I'll attempt to locate those later, though I think they were looking at the term "level". If someone else knows where this is, it'd be helpful.

[tivadar27]

Just to drive the point home, consider Fighter's armor training:
"Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.

In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor."

If you're suggesting that all the classes/archetypes that get armor training and indicate it works as a fighter's armor training works don't get the ability because it only applies to fighters... I think that would obviously be wrong. I can't see how that is any different from this discussion, outside of referring to level as well.

[Nardoz Zardoz]

The ACG is filled with these kinds of problems. You've got a nifty archetype, it gives you some other class's class feature, but fails to mention if your class level substitutes or not.

ACG had some neat stuff, but sloppy editing. You think this type of problem would have been high on the list of errors to watch for, given all of the mixed/multiclass stuff going in the book.

[Corwin Illum]

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

Corwin Illum wrote:

This would be the most powerful thing a magus could do with their arcana. I'd rule your level would be 0.

And I have a kensai bladebound magus as my main character. I'd say "no" but flagging for FAQ

Saying something is against the rules because it's too good is not a good reason at all. I really dislike it when the gm spot nerfs things ie been planning my entire character around, and even suffered being the worst party member, and then told that, after all my waiting and suffering, that my character is too good and gets nerfed.

I feel vindicated in my stance.

With the ACG errata, the answer is settled, it does not work.

[Dekalinder]

I'd like to point out to you that being errataed out means it previusly worked, otherwise no errata was needed. That was not a "rules interpretation faq", that was a "nerf hammer" on the magus. I'm also sure VMC weighted in a lot since it was one of the most cited case of VMC "abuse".

[Corwin Illum]

I find that highly unlikely, but possible. ACG printing has been being worked on for awhile. Unchained is quite recent. There has to be a lot of time for things to go off to printers (which i believe Paizo prints in china). Though perhaps a last minute rush was made for the ACG due to unchained and it was made in on time. If the issue was in Unchained, the change should have been made in Unchained, not ACG.

It was still "open to interpretation" before. Whether it truly worked RAW or not, I am unsure.

Regardless, it doesn't matter whether it worked before or not and arguing stances is now pointless. It doesn't work now.

[BadBird]

Oh lord, is there really going to be a "told you so! / nuh-uh!" battle now that it's dead? Errata can involve clarifications as well as changes, and we'll never know whether the original, unstated 'swashbuckler level is 0' was the intent or not.

[Bloodrealm]

All right, let's list off the Deeds that are worthless or crippled by the errata ruling to Arcane Deed!

- Opportune Parry and Riposte: You can't make a counterattack because you need at least 1 Panache point.

- Kip-Up: You can't stand up as a move action, only as a swift action by spending a point.

- Menacing Swordplay: You have 0 Panache.

- Precise Strike: You have 0 Panache, and even if you had some (which you can't get, even by actually getting Panache), you're Level 0. Oh, but you can spend a point to double that 0 damage bonus up to a whole 0 damage!

- Swashbuckler's Initiative: You have no Panache, so the INITIATIVE half of Swashbuckler's INITIATIVE is worthless, and the other half only works with Quick Draw.

- Swashbuckler's Grace: No Panache.

- Superior Feint: No Panache.

- Evasive: No Panache.

- Subtle Blade: No Panache.

- Perfect Thrust: No Panache.

- Swashbuckler's Edge: No Panache.

- Cheat Death: You have no Panache, therefore "You must have at least 1 panache point to spend." makes this useless, even though it would be fine if it had different phrasing.

- Deadly Stab: Sure, you can still use this one, but the DC takes a HUGE hit. Your effective Swashbuckler level is 0 for determining the effects of Deeds taken through Arcane Deed, so the DC = 10 + (0 * 0.5) + Dex modifier.

- Stunning Stab: Same as Deadly Stab.

This leaves a grand total of 5 out of 19 Deeds unaffected by the errata. Hooray.

Also, doesn't this mean Kensai is nerfed even harder than other Magi?

[shroudb]

yeah arcane deed is pretty much worthless now

on the flip side, magi were already powerful nova characters, so the nerf doesn't mean that they are now somehow "bad".

basically (imo):
magi prior to ACG: more than fine
magi after ACG, prior to errata: bunch of free extra damage
magi after errata: more than fine (acg portion thrown away)

[Snowblind]

BadBird wrote:

Oh lord, is there really going to be a "told you so! / nuh-uh!" battle now that it's dead? Errata can involve clarifications as well as changes, and we'll never know whether the original, unstated 'swashbuckler level is 0' was the intent or not.

Especially since the errata took a shotgun to or otherwise drastically changed a whole bunch of feats whose effects were crystal clear. A lot of them were in no way needed either (e.g. Steadfast Personality, Animal Soul).

[Bloodrealm]

shroudb wrote:

yeah arcane deed is pretty much worthless now

on the flip side, magi were already powerful nova characters, so the nerf doesn't mean that they are now somehow "bad".

basically (imo):
magi prior to ACG: more than fine
magi after ACG, prior to errata: bunch of free extra damage
magi after errata: more than fine (acg portion thrown away)

The problem is that it kind of ruins how I'd want to play Magus. I don't like to nova; I like to save things just in case I need them. I was also planning on playing a Dex-based Dervish Dance Bladebound Kensai, meaning I'd focus more on the physical damage and be using more buffs and transmutations than spamming Spellstrike/Spell Combat every round because of fewer spells/day and no Spell Recall, and I wouldn't have the extra Arcane Pool points to blow on constantly upping my damage. And fewer Arcana in general. Also, without Evasive, I'd be more vulnerable to everything, which isn't too good for a d8 HD frontliner who's already using his Favoured Class Bonus to increase his Arcane Pool back to about where it'd normally be without Bladebound instead of for hit points. Oh, yeah, and the GMs I play with actually have multiple encounters before resting (I've heard there's kind of a problem with some players going all nova on an encounter, then going back to town and resting until the next day: "the 15-minute adventuring day"; this isn't the case for us). I'm not a very experienced player, but it seems like my build and my playstyle got hit with a massive nerf hammer in order to force me into a lame "spam Shocking Grasp" build.

The only plus side is that, now that I have to scrap my hopes of playing Magus, I'll have to play one of the other character concepts I've been really hoping to play.

EDIT: Oh, I should also mention that the character was going to be a Lawful Neutral Tiefling bent on destroying fiends and their cults. You know, the kind of enemies that tend to resist or be outright immune to the spammy touch spells but NOT immune to precision damage like Precise Strike and criticals?

[shroudb]

Bloodrealm wrote:

shroudb wrote:

yeah arcane deed is pretty much worthless now

on the flip side, magi were already powerful nova characters, so the nerf doesn't mean that they are now somehow "bad".

basically (imo):
magi prior to ACG: more than fine
magi after ACG, prior to errata: bunch of free extra damage
magi after errata: more than fine (acg portion thrown away)

The problem is that it kind of ruins how I'd want to play Magus. I don't like to nova; I like to save things just in case I need them. I was also planning on playing a Dex-based Dervish Dance Bladebound Kensai, meaning I'd focus more on the physical damage and be using more buffs and transmutations than spamming Spellstrike/Spell Combat every round because of fewer spells/day and no Spell Recall, and I wouldn't have the extra Arcane Pool points to blow on constantly upping my damage. And fewer Arcana in general. Also, without Evasive, I'd be more vulnerable to everything, which isn't too good for a d8 HD frontliner who's already using his Favoured Class Bonus to increase his Arcane Pool back to about where it'd normally be without Bladebound instead of for hit points. Oh, yeah, and the GMs I play with actually have multiple encounters before resting (I've heard there's kind of a problem with some players going all nova on an encounter, then going back to town and resting until the next day: "the 15-minute adventuring day"; this isn't the case for us). I'm not a very experienced player, but it seems like my build and my playstyle got hit with a massive nerf hammer in order to force me into a lame "spam Shocking Grasp" build.

The only plus side is that, now that I have to scrap my hopes of playing Magus, I'll have to play one of the other character concepts I've been really hoping to play.

EDIT: Oh, I should also mention that the character was going to be a Lawful Neutral Tiefling bent on destroying fiends and their cults. You know, the kind of enemies that tend to resist or be outright immune to the spammy touch spells but NOT immune...

i agree that it is a heavy blow to magi don't get me wrong.

it is just that magi worked fine prior to acg, and it still works fine, "nothing gained, nothing lost"

i used to have kensai's before acg and they did fine, i used to rely more on stuff like arcane strike, weapon spec and etc (that became obsolete with the coming of arcane deed(precise strike)) but once again they can become useful again.

to give an extreme example:
if someone erased timestop from existance, it would be a nerf to 9th level arcane casters. it would hurt and etc (in high level play). it would certainly not make them "bad" though.

so taking away one trick (a very GOOD trick, i give you that) doesn't destroy the class because it still has tremendous potential and stuff.

even without nova-ing, a magus can still wreck stuff up, he still gets pounce at 4, he still can add his int to attack rolls, he still has blasts for when needed, he has utility and buff spells, he can easily augment his weapon and all the other goodies that makes them work.

[Bloodrealm]

I'm pretty sure Bladebound Kensai is decently popular, though, and I don't know if that combination has the resources without Precise Strike and Evasive to be effective when not nova-ing (reduced spells/day, reduced Arcane Pool, don't get an Arcana at 3rd and 9th levels). Correct me if I'm wrong.
Also, how the heck does a Magus get Pounce at 4th level? The only way I can see to get Pounce at all is through a higher level Polymorph effect.

[shroudb]

spellcombat with blade dash:
you cast the spell, move 30ft (through allies and whatnot), get an attack at +int, you are now adjustent, continue with your attacks. it's like pounce in steroids, but with a 2nd lvl spell cost.

bladebound kensai is definatly playable and fun even without precise deed. you just need to actually not spam every single thing every round. with precise deed, the damage it could output was kinda ridiculous for being free (swashbucklers who get it don't twf like magi, nor can they add extra damage on top of it)

also, look at multitouch spells instead of simply spamming shocking grasps, and buy a few pearl of powers lvl 1-2 to cover up your lower spellcasting.

[_Ozy_]

The two feat price for precise strike barely made it worth it. A magus will still work fine, especially for 15 minute adventuring days where they don't run out of resources. but it raises the question: why the hell spend valuable developer time creating these feats, and then errata'ing them into worthlessness? Presumably somebody's salary was used for this exercise.

[ZanThrax]

Two arcana to get Precise Strike was iffy, but three to get Precise Strike, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and Evasion was a pretty good deal for a Kensai.

[Bloodrealm]

As far as I can tell, the rules on how multi-touch spells function with the Magus is pretty shaky.

[_Ozy_]

ZanThrax wrote:

Two arcana to get Precise Strike was iffy, but three to get Precise Strike, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and Evasion was a pretty good deal for a Kensai.

Yeah, the Kensai gets hosed much more than the general Magus. For a general Magus, by the time improved Spell Recall rolls around, spending a pool point to recover a 3rd level spell is generally a better use than spending it on an Arcane Deed.

[Bloodrealm]

_Ozy_ wrote:

The two feat price for precise strike barely made it worth it. A magus will still work fine, especially for 15 minute adventuring days where they don't run out of resources. but it raises the question: why the hell spend valuable developer time creating these feats, and then errata'ing them into worthlessness? Presumably somebody's salary was used for this exercise.

The thing is, I don't want to have to nova everything to keep up, and my GMs don't run the "15 minute adventuring day" garbage anyway, like I said before. However, it just seems like if I DON'T blow at least half my resource in any given encounter my Bladebound Kensai will just be a nerfed martial character with an occasional boost until I get into really high levels with Improved Critical and Staggering/Stunning Critical. Even WITH Precise Strike being usable I'd still need to spend a feat in order to get it before 12th level (Bladebound replaces the 3rd level Arcana, and Kensai replaces the 9th level Arcana).

[_Ozy_]

Yeah, I know, the previous version made the magus much more viable for an extended adventuring day. Now, once they blow their wad, they can take their place next to the rogue as mostly useless.

Easy enough fix, ignore the errata.

[Bloodrealm]

_Ozy_ wrote:

Easy enough fix, ignore the errata.

That's exactly what one of the people that usually GMs our group said when I just told her about this. I believe her first reaction was, and I quote, "Eww."

[shroudb]

Bloodrealm wrote:

As far as I can tell, the rules on how multi-touch spells function with the Magus is pretty shaky.

not really.

let's say you have 2 attacks and haste normally:

1st round:
cast the spell, get a free touch attack
do another 3 attacks (2+haste)
2nd round:
do the attacks first
cast another touch spell, get a free touch attack with the second spell

so in total you did 7 attacks with spell 1, and 1 attack with spell 2
if you had more touches available than 7, then they are lost but it's no big deal

[Zenogu]

Im probably digging up an old hatchet that was buried, but I cannot for the life of me find this errata in the FAQ. Where is it located?

[CBDunkerson]

Zenogu wrote:

Im probably digging up an old hatchet that was buried, but I cannot for the life of me find this errata in the FAQ. Where is it located?

NOT in the FAQ.

Rather, it is in the errata.

[Zenogu]

I see it now. It unfortunately still does not give us 100% clarity on whether the off-hand is considered occupied or not during spell combat.

A few situations that come to mind:

Am I considered to have a free hand to use Deflect Arrows after using Spell Combat?

Am I considered to have a free hand to catch a weapon I have disarmed my opponent of after using Spell Combat?

Do I have a free hand if I am holding a charge for a touch spell after using Spell Combat?

For a Multiclass Free Hand Fighter/Magus, do you benefit from the Singleton ability during Spell Combat?

Is you hand considered free for purposes like Crane Wing after using Spell Combat?

If someone chooses to ignore the errata, are you considered to have a free hand for the Precise Strike Arcane Deed?