At L1,an Alchemist gets 2 formulae, plus a number of bonus formulae equal to his Intelligence modifier. If an Alchemist's Intelligence score increases later on, such that his modifier increases, does he gain retroactive bonus formulae? If so, do they need to be L1 formulae (all he would have had access to at level 1), or can they be of any level he has access to at the time of the ability score increase?
There's a bit written here about Intelligence that suggests that all bonuses are retroactive, but this seems like a character-creation only sort of thing... I imagine it's the same for an Alchemist as it is for a Wizard...
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An alchemist can create only a certain number of extracts of each level per day. His base daily allotment of extracts is given on Table 2–1. In addition, he receives bonus extracts per day if he has a high Intelligence score, in the same way a wizard receives bonus spells per day.
In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).
Yes, it's "retroactive." You get bonus extracts of whatever levels your Intelligence would grant you. So if your Intelligence is 20, you get 2 level 1, 1 level 2, 1 level 3, 1 level 4, and 1 level 5 bonus extract.
Though of course you can only get the bonuses of the levels you qualify for. In other words with an alchemist level of 8 and an Intelligence of 20 you would only get a bonus of 2 level 1, 1 level 2, and 1 level 3 (since you can't create extracts above level 3).
Nnnnot exactly what he's asking. The Extracts per day, yes, you'd get those, but no, you wouldn't suddenly manifest new Extracts Known, any moreso than a Wizard suddenly manifests more Spells Known due to their + going up by 1.
My bad... I didn't mean the number per day that I can use... I meant the number of "known" spells in my formulae book... Do I get retroactive "feebies" to add to my formulae book when my intelligence mod increases?
No.
Nnnnot exactly what he's asking. The Extracts per day, yes, you'd get those, but no, you wouldn't suddenly manifest new Extracts Known, any moreso than a Wizard suddenly manifests more Spells Known due to their + going up by 1.
Thanks. I kind of figured as much, but when I read the bit about all bonuses being retroactive when your mod increases, I thought it worth asking.
No harm in asking, man.
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To resurrect a very old thread..
I'm not sure if this was really answered correctly or not.
Intelligence: If my Intelligence modifier increases, can I select another bonus language?
Yes. For example, if your Int is 13 and you reach level 4 and apply your ability score increase to Int, this increases your Int bonus from +1 to +2, which grants you another bonus language.
Technically, Int-enhancing items such as a headband of vast intelligence should grant a specific language (in the same way they do for skill ranks).
So.. based on this FAQ.. I would think that possibly you DO gain bonus Level 1 spells known as you increase your Intelligence... or even possibly bonus spells appropriate to your current level. Gaining a bonus language IS essentially the same thing as gaining a bonus spell known. It is materializing out of nowhere as your Intelligence increases. I would think that both would be a bit odd.. but it's all in the explanation I guess.. perhaps you now have the intelligence to understand a little more of things you were already working on...
There is a difference between learning a language or gaining a bonus spell per day and writing something in a book. The former is ongoing learning and capacity, the latter is locked in as your knowledge at that point.
I would not allow wizards and alchemists to add spells/formulas to their books.
YMMV.
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For the purposes of PFS play and the like, a more official answer would really be desirable.
This is coming to light as Hero Lab (who manufactures a rather nifty PF character generator) has added a new feature to track spells known vs spells purchased in spellbooks. Since the logic for this functionality isn't clear... they have assumed one method as opposed to another. Right or wrong... it would be good to know which it is actually supposed to be. The FAQ would suggest that they are doing it right. The Rules as Written.. I don't really know what they suggest... I think maybe they suggest something else.. but.. that's not really important... assuming we can get an official ruling.
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One of the design standards Paizo tried to follow in developing Pathfinder is that it is not supposed to matter what 'order' things happen in. Two characters with the same class and the same Int will have the same number of skill ranks... regardless of whether one had that Int all along while the other has been continually increasing it.
There are very few exceptions to this general rule... basically only in cases where there isn't a clean way to do it. As there is no exception stated for formulae/spells inscribed based on Int, I'd assume that these retroactively increase just like the skill ranks. At some point when you have time you use your greater intelligence to figure out a few more spells on your own and add them to the book.
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For the purposes of PFS play and the like, a more official answer would really be desirable.
This is coming to light as Hero Lab (who manufactures a rather nifty PF character generator) has added a new feature to track spells known vs spells purchased in spellbooks. Since the logic for this functionality isn't clear... they have assumed one method as opposed to another. Right or wrong... it would be good to know which it is actually supposed to be. The FAQ would suggest that they are doing it right. The Rules as Written.. I don't really know what they suggest... I think maybe they suggest something else.. but.. that's not really important... assuming we can get an official ruling.
I was just using Hero Lab this evening and happened upon this new feature. My wizard started with 18 INT and now has 24 due to 2 points of increase from level advancement and 4 points from a headband. Hero Lab indicates a free spell total that corresponds to the higher INT number. It also does not seem to track whether your free spells of any given level exceed the maximum number of free spells you can have for that spell level.
I know I should ask LWD about this, but I'm wondering if they got some new official rule on this from Paizo. Furthermore there is a question of whether or not extra spell book spells from increased INT need to be 1st level spells or could be of any level the PC can use at that time. The 3 spells you "begin play" with when you have your first wizard level are clearly 1st level, but the part about more spells in books due to high INT is a completely different sentence. The cost of 3 first level spells is not a big deal, but if the PC can have 3 more spells of 4th or 5th level, the cost savings is no longer trivial. Generally INT is not going to increase until you are already capable of casting spells higher than 1st level.
Note that this is not just a temporary bonus question, as some of the INT increase is due to advancing in character levels - which is permanent unless you are unfortunate enough to get permanent negative levels. If you choose to get smarter, learning an additional free spell of a level you can cast would not be an unreasonable reward. It really isn't a huge deal for a PC that between free and purchased spells has well over 100 spells in her books. If you get any free spell at higher levels, it seems like it should be something of value to your character. The two free spells per level and the optional favored class bonus spells track with your current level (highest spell level and one level lower respective maximum levels). I think the same should follow if you are spending ability score increases or item purchases on INT. By the time you can afford that, you may have learned for free or purchased all the 1st level spells you care to have.
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I am not adding the INT increase-derived free spells unless I receive confirmation that Hero Lab follows an official ruling in this case.
One thought against adding spells due to INT increase is that the increase already affects your chances to learn new spells. But at this point spellcraft modifier is such that checks to learn are already automatic.
There is another similar thread asking about wizard spells, but both features do say "at first level" unless I am misrembering. If not for that I would say yes.
The languages do not call out first level, many people including myself just assumed it meant "only at first level" before the FAQ was made.
edit: The class features do not call out "first level" so it could be possible.
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RAW states that: "A wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spell book".
From this sentence alone, it seems clear that
- the INT based spells are 1st level only
- if INT changes, the number changes
But the sentence uses the words "also" and "additional" which refer you back to the previous sentence, which starts with "A wizard begins play with". This language is somewhat unique and in context it could be interpreted to mean "At first level a wizard gets a spell book with a number of 1st-level spells equal to 3 plus his INT modifier at the time he takes his first wizard level."
The question is whether the unique wording suggests something unique in the RAI or it is just leftover language that wasn't cleaned up. The 3.5 language isn't significantly different, and IMO the intent was to represent a pre-adventuring lifetime of study where a wizard with high INT could leverage it to get a slight advantage at first level.
I think the hang up with "all means all" here (I'm not the only one) is that spells in a spell book represent something physical and tangible that a character would otherwise have to pay and spend time to have (and might seem difficult to abstract away if the bonus goes away). But if you get free spells when levels increase then why not also when INT increases?
The "begins play" in the first sentence leads one to believe this is a something unique that you only get at 1st-level. If you interpret that the language simply didn't consider later INT increases, you could argue that "1st level spells" in the second sentence should be "spells of the highest level you can currently cast, or lower".
I guess for simplicity's sake I'll consider the list of spells in the book to be an abstraction which moves up or down with INT and/or level. And to match RAW the extra spells from INT will be 1st-level, even though they weren't much to gain at levels 8-10 when INT modifier increased. That will net the character 3 more spells or the equivalent of 45 gp in borrowed spell books and inks it would otherwise cost for those spells.
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The only real issue with this increase in the rules as written is this:
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his prohibited schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook. At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards' spellbooks to his own (see Magic).
It says they 'begin play' with these spells. It doesn't say anything about spells magically appearing in their book after their INT goes up. It DOES talk about spells magically appearing in their book after they go up a 'level' though.. which honestly is just as 'mystical' a mechanic as an INT increase is... so I can argue either way... BUT it would be really good to have an official ruling on this... for PFS purposes.
A simple 1 line addendum to the current FAQ would cover it.
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It says they 'begin play' with these spells.
That's really not any different than the text saying that intelligence bonus determines;
"The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game."
Yet, we know that languages DO retroactively increase.
It DOES talk about spells magically appearing in their book after they go up a 'level' though..
That's not how it works. There is no 'spells magically appear'. Rather, the extra spells added when a level is gained are described (see the CRB magic section) as being penned by the caster based on research performed while working towards the next level. Likewise, any additional first level spells would be added to the book by the caster at the time his intelligence increased.
Note that this could be a completely different spellbook by that point. The caster might have lost their book and thus not have any of the original 'intelligence based' spells... just any new ones from increased intelligence. Each spellbook is a unique physical item and the spells are housed therein rather than inherent to the Wizard.
So my response to you would be "Does a sorcerer get additional spells known for increasing charisma?" The answer to that question is no.
A sorcerer does not get additional spells known at any level, including first. The alchemist does.
Question: if the wizard were to lose intelligence, for whatever reason, would he erase bonus spells from his spellbook?
A sorcerer does not get additional spells known at any level, including first. The alchemist does.
Of course they do:
A 1st level sorcerer does not cast 9th level spells, no matter what the ability score. The magic may be within them (for RP purposes), but the mechanical number of spells known is set in stone. by level.
Why would anyone play a sorcerer, that can only cast six different spells (4 0 level and 2 1st level)?
Question: if the wizard were to lose intelligence, for whatever reason, would he erase bonus spells from his spellbook?
If you are asking me, obviously the answer is no. If that was meant as help for the OP, no need to reply
A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.
Bolded for emphasis
Understanding context is an important skill lacking in rules discussions. The question is: does a permanent change in casting stat retroactively change the number of free spells a character receives? For Sorcerer, the answer is a definitive NO. Casting stat never affects a sorcerers spells known.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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For those that think a spellbook user should retroactively gain spells known for a stat increase, I have some questions:
What if the character has lost his original spellbook? Or otherwise no longer even has the spells they started with?
What if the caster's score goes down, due to drain? Do spells spontaneously disappear from their book? Can they get different choices when the score is recovered? Can a wizard put on and take off a +2 Int headband to eventually learn every 1st level spell and write it down?
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For those that think a spellbook user should retroactively gain spells known for a stat increase, I have some questions:
What if the character has lost his original spellbook? Or otherwise no longer even has the spells they started with?
What if the caster's score goes down, due to drain? Do spells spontaneously disappear from their book?
No.
Can they get different choices when the score is recovered?
No.
Can a wizard put on and take off a +2 Int headband to eventually learn every 1st level spell and write it down?
No. They'd figure out a new 1st level spell the first time they reached a new intelligence bonus. They could then write this spell down in their spell book. If their intelligence then goes down and back up nothing happens because they've already received the extra spell for that intelligence level.
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You all can pontificate and postulate and rant as much as you like, but really it comes down to what is the 'official' ruling on this issue.. and I have yet to see that actually posted. The best thing would be an addendum to the FAQ on permanent INT bonuses and languages that said something like, this also applies to starting spells or this does not also apply to starting spells. We can most certainly argue both sides of this all day long, but without an official ruling our arguments are pretty pointless. I can most certainly see both sides of the coin here.
Argument 1: INT bonuses are INT bonuses.. all is all.
Argument 2: 'begins play with' means 'begins play with'.
Isn't that really what it boils down to? Ultimately both arguments are 'correct' the real question is which one is correct officially.
I reported this as a bug to Herolab and received the reply that this is how it is supposed to be, i.e. the 'free spells' total goes up when your Int modifier goes up, as if you had had that Int modifier at level 1.
It is actually fairly important that we get a ruling on this, because Herolab is extensively used for character creation, for PFS players and even by Paizo itself. Players aren't going to necessarily audit every single thing that Herolab says they get (OK, they should but they won't, at least not all of them). I love Herolab but I have to admit this is one of its weak points. If I misunderstand a rule, that will affect my characters and possibly the characters of other people I communicate my erroneous understanding to; if the fine folks at Lone Wolf misunderstand a rule, this can effect the characters of everyone who uses Herolab to make characters.
That said, the way spellbooks, formula books, and witch familiars work has always been a little at odds with the philosophy that Paizo has taken in converting D&D 3.5 into PFRPG, which is that you should be able to figure out a character's stats based on its abilities, feats, traits, etc. and not have to review its history to determine when it got more Int bonus and started getting more skills as a result. I don't know any way to fix it without completely redesigning that part of the system, however.
Total necro, I still play 1.0 every two weeks, but I have the answer for you:
"At 1st level, a witch forms a close bond with a familiar, a creature that teaches her magic and helps to guide her along her path. Familiars also aid a witch by granting her skill bonuses, additional spells, and help with some types of magic. This functions like the wizard’s arcane bond class feature, except as noted in the Witch’s Familiar section.
A witch must commune with her familiar each day to prepare her spells. Familiars store all of the spells that a witch knows, and a witch cannot prepare a spell that is not stored by her familiar. A witch’s familiar begins play storing all of the 0-level witch spells plus three 1st level spells of the witch’s choice. The witch also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to her Intelligence modifier to store in her familiar. At each new witch level, she adds two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new witch level) to her familiar. A witch can also add additional spells to her familiar through a special ritual."
It clearly states how level one goes for Witches. It's right there.
When you 'begin play', that's when it applies.
If you can't find rules declaring that INT bonuses apply retroactively to over ride what is said here, FOR WITCHES, what is said here continues to apply.
Gaining INT later doesn't grant extra spells at 1st level, as you have already 'begun playing'. Sorry.
Unless a rule that applies TO WITCHES says otherwise. Don't compare Sorcerer or Wizard, wrong class.