Hey Scavion, thanks for the slow approach.
So y'all are really saying that the Tengu's claws (presumably on his arms) are completely separate from the TWF double kick trick. His standard attack mode is to kick twice a round using TWF and then his bite and two claws get added to that, through the virtue of being natural attacks.
An alternative reading might suggest that his natural attacks are his primary attacks, and that he no longer gets unarmed attacks at all.
Claw Attack Tengus with this racial trait have learned to use their claws as natural weapons. They gain two claw attacks as primary natural attacks that deal 1d3 points of damage, and are treated as having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for the purpose of qualifying for other feats. This racial trait replaces swordtrained.
and
Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do.
This implies that creatures that use the mechanics for natural attacks do not get to use the unarmed strike mechanic during the same round to get additional attacks above and beyond what they are stated as having.
So I just don't buy that RAW allows this claw-handed tengu to use his kicks as primary attacks and tack on his bite & claws as secondary. Earlier in the thread it was suggested there was a developer quote that supported this interpretation, but the only link I saw talked only about a double kick with TWF, not all the rest.
EDIT: Just saw that SKR quote, where he was arguing away "extra" attacks from the vestigial arms, and he does say the 5-attack Tengu is valid. <shrug>
@seebs no they don't because TWF says the attacks done as a part of it get the penalty, not all attacks.
Now replace the TWF human with a TWF tengu, and get rid of the barrel. The tengu can make two unarmed strikes per round (one with the left leg and one with the right leg), and gets to add his three natural attacks as secondary attacks. That's 5 attacks per round, total. Overall, that puts his attack bonuses at –2 kick/–2 kick/–5 bite/–5 claw/–5 claw. This is a legitimate attack routine.If you read the entire thread he further explains that these are not considered to be "extra" attacks.
That's really interesting stuff. There has to be a build in there somewhere that makes Feral Combat Training worthwhile.
It's not a ninja, but an Alchemist can do six natural attacks at third level. Granted, it uses the mutagen, so you can't use them all day long. If you take a skinwalker with the Rageborn heritage your beast form natural attack options are hoof/hoof, or gore. Using the extra features feat, this combines to 3 natural attacks. The Feral Mutagen discovery then adds bite/claw/claw to that. The only secondary attacks then are the hoofs. I've heard it argued that a creature can't have a gore attack with a bite attack, but a head is not a limb and quite a few creatures (like gargoyles) have both. Regardless, if a GM ruled against it, that frees up a feat for other things and 5 attacks is still pretty good. Dipping a level of White-Haired Witch can result in seven attacks at level three, but it is a bit silly from a fluff/story standpoint.
While I was thinking of ways to make vestigial arms/tentacles useful a few weeks ago, I actually thought of a way to get around the above FAQ. Just a warning, this is plenty cheesy and I don't think I'd do it myself. If you take the "Reaching Vines" fungal graft you get two additional attacks that are pretty useless. If you forego the two vine attacks, you can attack with the useful tentacles instead. This doesn't increase the total number of attacks so it follows the rules technically. Like I said cheesy and since PFS doesn't allow fungal grafts it's not even legal there.
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Claw Attack Tengus with this racial trait have learned to use their claws as natural weapons. They gain two claw attacks as primary natural attacks that deal 1d3 points of damage, and are treated as having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for the purpose of qualifying for other feats. This racial trait replaces swordtrained.This implies that creatures that use the mechanics for natural attacks do not get to use the unarmed strike mechanic during the same round to get additional attacks above and beyond what they are stated as having.
This is you applying an overloaded definition to the word "primary". In this case it's simply pointing out that these are not "secondary natural attacks". "Primary" is part of the defined term "Primary Natural Attack".
Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.
and this part which you've seenCreatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
Primary in no way means "replaces weapon attacks". And the second part as has been pointed out just changes the use of primary attacks so that you can still use them as part of a full-attack action with manufactured weapons secondary primary attacks.
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You could do this without using any resources beyond having a race with bite and claws. Granted then you would not hit a damn thing and would be provoking 2 AoO every full attack.
I'm not sure where you're getting the AoOs from. Natural attacks do not provoke AoOs (and even if they did there are three natural attacks in your example). Maybe you're talking about making unarmed strikes with out the feat improved unarmed strike? I guess that could be it. Even then, say, armor spikes and boot knife will work for the manufactured attacks and won't provoke.
Iron Giant's natural attacking horror just made me realize something.
If a GM said "no" to Bite/Gore, citing the PC's head as a "limb", wouldn't that mean you couldn't Bite/Hair as well?
It's actually kind of an important question whether such a restriction exists. I have a PFS Tiefling NW Ranger with Claws and a Bite. I was planning on dipping Barbarian for a couple of levels to get a gore attack via Lesser Fiend Totem.
It's actually kind of an important question whether such a restriction exists. I have a PFS Tiefling NW Ranger with Claws and a Bite. I was planning on dipping Barbarian for a couple of levels to get a gore attack via Lesser Fiend Totem.Iron Giant's natural attacking horror just made me realize something.
If a GM said "no" to Bite/Gore, citing the PC's head as a "limb", wouldn't that mean you couldn't Bite/Hair as well?
The hair doesn't have to be on the head, it could be from the armpits LOL (I'm kidding of course).
Rather than taking a few barbarian levels fretgod99, have you thought about taking the helm of the mammoth lord? If you have another reason for a barbarian dip as well, then go for it, but 8500gp isn't much to avoid multiclassing.
If unarmed attacks worked like that you wouldn't need the natural weapons, since you would just use 2 arms, 2 feet and a head but.
Regardless of class you only get as many unarmed attacks per round as permitted by your bab. Monk's exclusively have the ability to flurry.
It's actually kind of an important question whether such a restriction exists. I have a PFS Tiefling NW Ranger with Claws and a Bite. I was planning on dipping Barbarian for a couple of levels to get a gore attack via Lesser Fiend Totem.Iron Giant's natural attacking horror just made me realize something.
If a GM said "no" to Bite/Gore, citing the PC's head as a "limb", wouldn't that mean you couldn't Bite/Hair as well?
The hair doesn't have to be on the head, it could be from the armpits LOL (I'm kidding of course).
Rather than taking a few barbarian levels fretgod99, have you thought about taking the helm of the mammoth lord? If you have another reason for a barbarian dip as well, then go for it, but 8500gp isn't much to avoid multiclassing.
It wasn't just going to be for the gore attack. Raging fits the character's profile.
That's a good suggestion, though.
I'm pretty sure that you cannot use a natural attack and unarmed in the same action.
Otherwise many monster stat blocks would list an extra unarmed attack in addition their natural weapons. Unless you WANT to give the colossal dragon yet snother attack.
The reason they don't list an unarmed strike is that it would provoke and do low non-lethal damage since they don't have improved unarmed strike. Also it would decrease all their natural attacks by 5. Very poor choice for them. Thus the don't include it in the stat block. If you look at the human stat block, they don't list it there for the humans, even though we know by the rules that they could use an unarmed strike.
What Chess said.
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I don't even think this is cheesey. Especially when compared side by side with any Full Caster class. Holy smokes - some of the stuff that casters can do at high level is cheese (but it's just accepted as the norm).
My current Character is a Half-Orc Ranger/Monk (Master of Many Styles) that will eventually use, Claw/Claw/Bite/Kick/Kick/Kick/Kick on a full-attack.
With Feral Combat Training, Dragon Style & Dragon Ferocity his claws and Kicks will all get 1.5x STR to damage (but the bite is still .5x STR). An Amulet of Mighty Fists will power all of his attacks - but even with all of that his expected damage output at level 12 will not be out of line with a 2-handed Barbarian build (I worked it out to about 120 against Favoured Enemies @ 12th level).
His backstory, which is fairly concise, perfectly explains how he came to be such an angry ball of hate; no cheese at all.
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Joe Loves Rules & The Black Raven are correct.
I would like to add the following;
- If you do splash Monk it's probably in your interest to take an Archetype that loses Flurry of Blows as you can never make Natural Attacks in addition to FoB; only as part of a FoB if you take Feral Combat Training.
- Monks do not have an "off-hand" when using Unarmed Strikes (which is unique to the Monk). This saves you having to take Double Slice.
this thread is making me think of my bloodrager with 3 natural attacks and TWF, IUA and is 2 feats deep into the dragon style line(which allows me to apply 1.5 strength to unarmed attacks, and 2 times on teh first attack), and finally Feral combat training (claws). so much damage on full attacks.
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Yeah, he'd get the 1.5 from Dragon Ferocity on his claw attacks as well as his UAS...Nope. Just full strength on claws or perhaps (depending how you read it) full strength minus one if your strength mod is odd.
Feral Combat Training allows Bandw2's character to apply the effects of Dragon Style & Dragon Ferocity to his Claws. Without it the claws would only get .5x STR as they are considered secondary when combo'd with UAS.
How are you coming up with full STR -1?
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Ah, I gotcha. I didn't quite follow what you were saying and I was crossing up two streams of thought in my own mind. Your example above is of course correct!
Now, what you can also do is apply Dragon Style & Dragon Ferocity to your Natural Attacks (claws), via Feral Combat Training and if you don't use them in conjunction with manufactured weapons your claws would get the full benefit.
So if you went Claw/Claw/Bite your 1st claw would get 1.5x STR +0.5 STR from Dragon Style & Dragon Ferocity and your second claw would get 1x STR for being a Primary Natural attack and the plus .5 STR from Dragon Ferocity.