Even with Kryponite Batman couldn't win. Superman has all kinds of alien technology (and again as part of his informed abilities is smart) and he could just put on a damn hazmat style suit to block out the Kryptonite (he's done it before). Or failing that just rods from god Batman's general location. Or Hurrican Breath his way. Or Lasers from across the city (seriously he *could* this, why he doesn't... author fiat!) Kryponite won't do jack when Batman is going once to every 10+ moves that Superman gets. Really it is simply put not a winnable fight for Batman, by the mechanics.Kryptonite space laser ends superman.
That has... nothing to do with a Kryponite Space Lase, and I don't see how that would even work. A Batman laced with Kryptonite who is tossed into the sun, is just dead. The rest of that sounds like some grade-A fiat.
@ JoeJ - A lot of that is fiat. It's nice to think that Batman could sneak up on Superman, but mechanically speaking, he couldn't. His "I just didn't make a sound." is absolute nonsense powered by fiat. It's cool mind you, its just not mechanically sound. And he isn't really more perceptive then Superman. Superman is extremely perceptive unless the author fiats him not to be so Batman can have a chance to play detective.
Fiat has nothing to do with it. I'm talking strictly mechanics. Batman's Perception and Stealth bonus are both +20. Superman's Perception is +10. Even if Superman's player rolls a 20, Batman still beats him on a 10 or better.
Supes does not have normal hearing. He has super hearing as a super power. One of us mere mortals can get a +10. Batman is not even close. There is no way Batman is sneaking up on superman. Well maybe if he has some new technology that absorbs sound but then we are back to Fiat. Take away Supe's conscience and Batman has no chance. It is not like he is stupid. Finding a way to not be harmed by kryptonite is somethign he could do if he knew he had to fight Batman, and Batman is not likely to just be walking around without it if the fight was not expected. Burn a hole into batman or punch him ONE time. Game over.
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Can this thread not get hijacked into a comic book superhero vs debate? Those are pretty dumb just regularly without throwing in DnD.
Not really, since it all promotes then is characters that aren't very good matches of their comic book versions, if they seriously think Supermans combination of Super hearing and various forms and excellence of vision is only a +10. A normal human can get a +10... I've never seen a human with Superman like superhearing or super sight. So... their number is a poor reflection of the characters actual abilities. This is why the martial/caster thing is a such a big issue though. Unlike converting superheroes into a system and trying to replicate their powers in it, we know what martials and casters are capable of. And unfortunately in the martials case (particularly Fighter and Rogues) the answer is "not much".
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To fix wands, I would actually rather see them all made like the eternal wands introduced late in 3.5. They still hold a spell, but only have so many charges per day, with the ones with a lot of charges being rare and expensive. This still allows for them to provide some out of combat support, making it so the cleric doesn't have to save every spell for healing, but it doesn't completely replace the use of spell slots for healing at the same time, and requires a bit of resource management to use effectively.Forcing a player to waste slots on hp healing isn't fun.
Making hp healing completely slotless, something current wands frequently do, also isn't fun in the long run. The way wands work now, blissfully taking damage while focusing entirely on dealing damage in return while ignoring tactics or defensive measures is too often encouraged, and that is a problem. I don't think the solution is to return to just relying on spell slots, but the idea of having wands completely replace spell slots is equally bad. There needs to be a balance between the two. Eternal wands with limited charges per day is the easiest way to do so without completely rewriting the game and it's core expectations; you still have access to wands, freeing up some spell slots, but you also still have the challenge of resource management akin to if you were relying on spell slots alone and you still need to rely on spell slots for emergency healing or healing beyond what the wand can cover in a single day. Short of rewriting the system from scratch, it's seems like the best solution available.
Defensive tactics are discouraged by the rocket tag nature of the system, not so much healing wands. That being said I am big fan of Eternal Wands and Schemas, though I prefer that healing be convenient and easy so no gets "stuck" with it, since it is often a poor in combat option anyway again due to the rocket tag nature of the system. I should note that I am pretty sure the game expects to some degree consumable healing resources. At the very least, after 3.5 wand of CLW should have been well known to anyone who bothered to read up on the system, so I don't agree that it is against system expectations.
Consumable healing resources are part of the game, yes. But between the wands as they are and channel energy taking up most of the healing, the problems with the rest of the cleric class as a whole have been amplified. The best solution would be to rewrite the class and spell list from scratch to allow more customization with the domains while reining in overall power level, but that is not going to be readily available short of Pathfinder 2.0. Switching to eternal wands, while not the ideal solution, is a solution that provides the consumable healing expected to a reasonable degree while limiting the amplifications to the rest of the problems inherent in the cleric class and the system as a whole. Between channel energy and the fact that there are now many classes that can provide emergency healing without any one person being stuck with it (really only the fighter, rogue, and the arcane casters lack it), limiting the wands would be a livable middle step that would not doom the cleric to becoming a healbot again.
What if no one want to play a Cleric? Dedicating actual spell slots to Cure spells is incredibly inefficient so other classes that *can* cast them really *shouldn't*, which pushes parties into the old trope of "you *have* to have a cleric". Wands let you get your healing from a Bard. Or a Witch. Or a Druid. Or lots of other choices. This prevents Clerics from a being a must have for their channel and also prevents anyone from being doomed to "healbot status". I'm not sure a 3/day Wand of CLW would be enough to prevent someone from having to be a healer.
With eternal wands, you still can avoid the healbot syndrome, as you still have the wands. Considering that most people would still buy one, and a few potions on the side as well, making each wand only have say 5 charges per day should not overly limit healing capability. 3 might be a bit low, I agree; I would put the different eternal wands available in increments of 5. Have everybody who can buy a wand with 5 charges (even if a particular character can't use it themselves, they can hand it off to someone who can as needed) and/or invest in a party wand that has 15 or even 20 charges, and you can easily have 15 or 20 castings per day without having to expend spell slots. Throw in a few potions for emergencies, and the average party should be fine. If you need more than that consistently, than your tactics probably need to be adjusted regardless of what kind of wand you have access to.
Change the duration of battlefield control spells to Concentration, or at most Concentration plus 1 or 2 rounds. Casters will still get to do incredibly awesome things, but they'll be much less able to get by without teammates.
Maybe concentration + a few rounds, but not just concentration. That would just force casters into using only buff spells, amplifying the problems those spells cause with the overall system already. Even with concentration + extra rounds, I would tie the extra rounds to level or 1/2 level so that the characters still feel they get some benefit at higher levels. The only other option for combat would be to revamp the numbers in the evocation spells to make them worth while at higher levels. Pushing casters into the buffing role any more they already are won't help balance the system; it might make it more fun for the noncasters than it is currently, but it won't help the core system, especially at higher levels.
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But great Heroes in myth and legend didn't Fly. Not even Demi-gods like Heracles. Not Roland, not Lancelot, not Odysseus, not Jason, not Beowulf, not Samson. And those guys are Mythic.
Great heroes in myth and legend had nearly exactly same access to flight as mighty sorcerers did.
Mythologically speaking, self-powered perfect flight along the lines of Pathfinder fly or overland flight is usually the province of gods and angels and similar beings, if it even exists at all within the mythology. Magicians can't do it any more than warriors can.
But there were means of flight available to non-gods, and such were mostly equally available to all, without any special favor to wizards and their ilk. Alexander the great warrior fastens his chariot to a Roc. Solomon the mighty magician puts his throne on the back of a giant eagle. Daedalus the clever skill monkey designs working nonmagical wings by artifice, using only what he can get his hands on from inside a prison cell.
Not like Pathfinder, where wizards get not only to summon the giant eagles, but also are given the literally godly mode of flight, while skill monkeys aren't even provided the mechanical mortal substitute.
But great Heroes in myth and legend didn't Fly. Not even Demi-gods like Heracles. Not Roland, not Lancelot, not Odysseus, not Jason, not Beowulf, not Samson. And those guys are Mythic.Great heroes in myth and legend had nearly exactly same access to flight as mighty sorcerers did.
Mythologically speaking, self-powered perfect flight along the lines of Pathfinder fly or overland flight is usually the province of gods and angels and similar beings, if it even exists at all within the mythology. Magicians can't do it any more than warriors can.
But there were means of flight available to non-gods, and such were mostly equally available to all, without any special favor to wizards and their ilk. Alexander the great warrior fastens his chariot to a Roc. Solomon the mighty magician puts his throne on the back of a giant eagle. Daedalus the clever skill monkey designs working nonmagical wings by artifice, using only what he can get his hands on from inside a prison cell.
Not like Pathfinder, where wizards get not only to summon the giant eagles, but also are given the literally godly mode of flight, while skill monkeys aren't even provided the mechanical mortal substitute.
Atlantes could fly. So could Farmer Weathersky, Gwydion, Lleu, Merlin, Morgan le Fey, Iucounu the Laughing Magician and most of the powerful wizards from Dying Earth- from which D&D gets it's Wizards.
Now sure, not all of them do it by a "Fly" spell. Some shapechange, some summon creatures that carry them, some grow wings, etc.
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I'm giving you an example of a D20 derived game that manages to avoid martial/magical disparity even at very high power levels. Is it unrealistic? Of course it is! Are you really going to tell me you want realistic stories about an invulnerable flying space alien who shoots laser beams from his eyes?
If they are going to give the main character powers, yes I expect to them used realistically. I think that giving a character all that power makes writing a story about them very hard. But watching characters carry around the idiot ball does not endear me to a story. If you give a character the ability to do something, they should use it in a way that even the basic reader can figure out would be effective. And Superman... does not do that. Because it would be very boring.
Which leads us back to the martial/caster issue. I hate that in order for martials to play at the same table you need have casters carrying the idiot ball or gentleman's agreements that turn off abilities the character actually has.
But great Heroes in myth and legend didn't Fly. Not even Demi-gods like Heracles. Not Roland, not Lancelot, not Odysseus, not Jason, not Beowulf, not Samson. And those guys are Mythic.Great heroes in myth and legend had nearly exactly same access to flight as mighty sorcerers did.
Mythologically speaking, self-powered perfect flight along the lines of Pathfinder fly or overland flight is usually the province of gods and angels and similar beings, if it even exists at all within the mythology. Magicians can't do it any more than warriors can.
But there were means of flight available to non-gods, and such were mostly equally available to all, without any special favor to wizards and their ilk. Alexander the great warrior fastens his chariot to a Roc. Solomon the mighty magician puts his throne on the back of a giant eagle. Daedalus the clever skill monkey designs working nonmagical wings by artifice, using only what he can get his hands on from inside a prison cell.
Not like Pathfinder, where wizards get not only to summon the giant eagles, but also are given the literally godly mode of flight, while skill monkeys aren't even provided the mechanical mortal substitute.
Atlantes could fly. So could Farmer Weathersky, Gwydion, Lleu, Merlin, Morgan le Fey, Iucounu the Laughing Magician and most of the powerful wizards from Dying Earth- from which D&D gets it's Wizards.
Now sure, not all of them do it by a "Fly" spell. Some shapechange, some summon creatures that carry them, some grow wings, etc.
So exactly this point. Glad you agree with him. Now to acknowledge the fact that mythology provides skill monkeys and martials with that same sort of flight, and Pathfinder tends not to, or to price it far out of reach compared to the cost of a 3rd level spell.
Maybe concentration + a few rounds, but not just concentration. That would just force casters into using only buff spells, amplifying the problems those spells cause with the overall system already. Even with concentration + extra rounds, I would tie the extra rounds to level or 1/2 level so that the characters still feel they get some benefit at higher levels. The only other option for combat would be to revamp the numbers in the evocation spells to make them worth while at higher levels. Pushing casters into the buffing role any more they already are won't help balance the system; it might make it more fun for the noncasters than it is currently, but it won't help the core system, especially at higher levels.Change the duration of battlefield control spells to Concentration, or at most Concentration plus 1 or 2 rounds. Casters will still get to do incredibly awesome things, but they'll be much less able to get by without teammates.
You might also eliminate stacking on buffing. Only one per customer (from any source) at any given time. That would have the effect of increasing the importance of a character's "raw" abilities and also create more interesting tactical decisions.
Um.. that would hurt MARTIALS a lot... good luck iwht that Haste+Good Hope.... or haste and fly....
Um.. that would hurt MARTIALS a lot... good luck iwht that Haste+Good Hope.... or haste and fly....True but it would hurt casters more. No more stacking defences like mirror image/overland flight/elemental body for the arcane types. No more divine favour/blessing of fervour/righteous might for the cleric making Bab and raw physical stats more important. It would give the rogue the shaft but there is nothing new with that.
So how would a melee martial deal with flying things...
I feel like nerfing buffs would end up hurting the martials in the end (because now casters can just say screw wasting a spell slot on haste and fly for the fighter... Ill just prepare more Summon Monster XX spells)
You might also eliminate stacking on buffing. Only one per customer (from any source) at any given time. That would have the effect of increasing the importance of a character's "raw" abilities and also create more interesting tactical decisions.
It is an interesting idea and would have a fairly significant impact but on its own it probably isn't enough. Casters would just switch to more magic item based defences. 5e implements this in part along with a range of other changes such as far more limited spell slots and an apparent limit on magic items. It will be interesting to see if this has any real impact on the issue.
Overall I think casters could generally do with being a bit more vulnerable to offence.
5E does a number of things that look like improvements to me, although it's obviously too soon to really get a feel for how well it all works together.
How well they work together is the key. No one solution is going to solve the inherent problems in the system. Only a series of connected and related smaller changes will pull it off. We shall see if WotC found the right combination or not soon enough.
But you don't have to make it a rule that a superpowered character is genuinely super powered in everything, even if his PR says that he is. Nor do you have to assume that "mundane" skills can never beat magical super powers. I'd even...Sure, that could make a great game. Unfortunately as things stand that game is not Pathfinder and things would have to change fairly fundamentally for it to happen.So is the only real solution to martial/caster disparity to play a different game?
I have been playing older D&D and clones where spell casters do not have so many spells to pick rfrom and the way arcane casters get there spells varies a lot.
Depending on how much effort (rewriting) you want to do you could write out some house rules for a campaign specific game and ban a lot of non core stuff for everyone to bring damage down as well from insane to a little bit over the top.
One could do a loww magic world for example where spellcasters have been hunted to near extinction and the only way in is to multiclass at level 3 and find someone to train you like the Jedi from Star Wars or Dragonlance which the PC cleric was the only one and at level 5 Wizards had toktake the test which could kill you. I went as far as using AD&D magic item creation rules and banning the item creation feats in Pathfinder in 2012.
Even with spellcasters being banned/nerfed things like two handed weapons and bows still crush everything and classes like the Paladin, Ranger and critical hit builds with falcions overpower everything else. Two handed weapon users get to triple dip compared to a sword and board fighter- bigger weapon dice, more effect off power attack and +50% strength bonus (or 100% using splat book).
THere is a fine line between houserules and a rewrite. I'm opting towards the latter and I have been hybriding PF with AD&D/OSR. I front loaded the classes and went back to TSR era D&D multiclassing for example and are using BECMI era xp tables but the classes look like Pathfinder classes and I use BAB, feats and the PF skill system. I stripped out level 8 and 9 spells of Clerics and Druids but it created other problems so I will let them keep them I think but will make the use the same xp table as the Wizard perhaps but might let the cleric level up quicker to take care of the no one wants to play them. I stripped the animal companion off the Druid and they do not get wildshape until level 7. I will also tweak what spells are allowed in the game.
And, while saving throws improved in 1st ed, a fighter's save vs spells was very poor and only reached 50% at about level 11 (from memory - it's been 20+ years, so I might be mistaken here), so SoS/SoD spells were still very effective - about the same as now, probably. A low level fighter, as you say, was unlikely to save against anything.
You are misremembering a lot. The final bump for saves was not at 11th, and most spells didn't actually target the Spells save category anyway. SoD never did as far as I can recall. The Fighter had either the best or 2nd best saves in every other category, and wasn't far enough behind in the level chart to make enough of a difference.
Regardless a 50% save versus an Average to Challenging CR spell/SLA is actually pretty good for the 3.x Fighter. You've got maybe a +9/10 Will save with a Feat investment and a +3 cloak at 11 and a Challenging 'miniboss' caster will be targeting you with DC 23 saves, if he's horribly unoptimized and only uses NPC WBL and a PC-like race.
If you aren't pulling punches and you go no-holds-barred with a caster BBEG then really an optimized Fighter probably is only saving on a natural 20. And Fighter isn't even the only class with this problem.
To add to the OP though:
If you generated treasure by the book, magic items were heaped upon the Fighter. Magic weapons and armor everywhere. Miscellaneous gear less common, and a large portion of it was oriented towards 'martials' as well. Caster loot was rare. In some sense the magic-user got access to spells instead of getting to be decked out in magical equipment.
With the necessary 'big 6' and item creation this is no longer really the case.
No, no. This is a Solar v. Level 6 Rogue with 20th level WBL. The Rogue is still not going to win. Batman is a vanilla mortal. He *wishes* he had the kind of HP of a level 15 Wizard. Not to mention the reality warping power he sorely sorely lacks. And I'm not really trying to "spin" it. In D&D terms, that's pretty much what the fight *is*.
So because Anzyr says Superman can beat Batman, Superman must be a higher level/CR.
And all evidence to the contrary, like actual stories in which Batman defeats Superman, is author fiat, and the only fiat we should accept is Anzyr fiat.
Thus Batman is 6th level and has a lot of wealth.
As such, Pathfinder cannot properly model the interaction we've seen between Superman and Batman.
Nicely done, that logic almost makes a perfect circle. Works almost as well as your tinfoil hat Thanos vs 20th level wizard claim.
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No, my logic is that if the powers that Superman has were used by a person of common intelligence, Batman would have no chance. The fact that he does not and that Batman can "not make a sound", which as we all know is completely impossible for the ordinary human he is, make those decisions author fiat. Batman simply isn't capable of the kind of things a 15th level character would be. It's not that I'm applying fiat, I'm just making the narrative run like it would realistically. I have 0 dogs in that fight and no need to make the story entertaining. Batman is killed by Laser Beam, through multiple walls, across the entirety of Gotham City (which it took Superman literally seconds to get to), page 1. That's not the story cause I'm bad writer, or because I hate Batman, or because I like Superman. That's the story because realistically that's how it would go. Because Batman is a normal human with normal human levels and Superman is an extremely powerful outsider.
No, my logic is that if the powers that Superman has were used by a person of common intelligence, Batman would have no chance. The fact that he does not and that Batman can "not make a sound", which as we all know is completely impossible for the ordinary human he is, make those decisions author fiat. Batman simply isn't capable of the kind of things a 15th level character would be. It's not that I'm applying fiat, I'm just making the narrative run like it would realistically. I have 0 dogs in that fight and no need to make the story entertaining. Batman is killed by Laser Beam, through multiple walls, across the entirety of Gotham City (which it took Superman literally seconds to get to), page 1. That's not the story cause I'm bad writer, or because I hate Batman, or because I like Superman. That's the story because realistically that's how it would go. Because Batman is a normal human with normal human levels and Superman is an extremely powerful outsider.<blinking in disbelief> Batman a normal human? BATMAN? NORMAL?
Joking aside, for decades a significant number of people have had no problem at all suspending disbelief at the idea of Batman being a useful member of the Justice League, and I think that fact sheds light on reducing martial/caster disparity.
Although officially defined as human, the abilities Batman actually displays are way beyond what is humanly possible. But because they are abilities that can be handwaved as extraordinary skill, the reader accepts it. Everybody knows that no human being can lift a semi-truck, and so Batman can't either. But just how stealthily is it really possible for a human to move? That's much harder to estimate, so it's easier to accept that just maybe one person could be that good. How skilled is it really possible for a pickpocket to be? How good a detective? How skilled at martial arts? How good at intimidating others? How good an escape artist? The lines are a lot less intuitively obvious than with strength, and so...
Repeat after me: Author Fiat. And willing suspension of disbelief. Mechanics make willing suspension of disbelief not work. If you can't do something, you can't do something. No matter how cool it might be in a book.
I would actually be very happy if a level 6 rogue could play like Batman. Unfortunately a level 20 rogue with unlimited money still couldn't play like Batman, the only thing such a character would have over Batman is hit-points and that is only if we consider hit-points to be physical damage and not just someone's ability to avoid lethal/incapacitating blows.
Evidence offered to support Batman as a 6th level rogue: none.
Evidence offered to support Thanos as a 20th level caster's speed bump: none.
Evidence offered to support Zeus as a 13th level druid: none.
Every time something comes up where the character in question displays power far beyond what is doable with Anzyr's suggested build, it's author fiat, or using different mechanics, or some other such. It's never the real answer, which is that Anzyr is bad at doing stats. Possibly due to a failure to read the rules in a logical manner, evidenced elsewhere. Possibly due to a distaste for the genre of myth.
Comic book heroes, much like old mythological heroes, have faced off against a myriad of threats, often far beyond what a sub CR 30 offers in Pathfinder. Case in point? Baba Yaga creates demon lords and subjugates a country. Anti-Monitor wiped out multiple universes. Darkseid drives a planet around the galaxy. Joker once turned the entire planet into monkeys. Or jokers, or something like that, I'm not entirely sure. But for you, that's what, a 10th level monk?
Yz, their version of a genie, has demonstrated power beyond wish, usable at will. As has Mxyzptlk. No doubt 7th level caster stuff.
Lex Luthor, ordinary human, has played twelve chess games concurrently while thinking up non-magical solutions to defeating Superman, cancer, cloning, etc. Probably a DC 15 check based on your insistence that DC 10 will name every city in the world, ever.
Green Arrow has done more crazy stuff with his arrows than any 20th level archer built off PF rules can manage.
And that's just the beginning, but no doubt just more author fiat (also known as storytelling) and not suggestive that your entire premise, that the DCU fits mostly under 10th level, is the typical poorly supported assertions and insistences we've come to expect from you.
I think the XP progression issue needs to be taken into consideration. Besides putting everything on a single XP chart, 3.X made the later half of the 20 level progression much more accessible. Most earlier edition tended to trail off once name level was reached, of if not that, to go into domain level play. So most of the time problems that came with later levels were simply avoided by not going there.
I think the XP progression issue needs to be taken into consideration. Besides putting everything on a single XP chart, 3.X made the later half of the 20 level progression much more accessible. Most earlier edition tended to trail off once name level was reached, of if not that, to go into domain level play. So most of the time problems that came with later levels were simply avoided by not going there.
THat is part of it. Getting to level 18 was not likely to happen and I think the expected rate of progression was something like (with a weekly game).
Name level in about a year.
2 levels per year after that.
We still found martials decent up to level 14 or so in 2nd ed. Even at those levels wizards were glass cannons and Clerics and Druids were not CoDzilla of 3.x. DM more or less controlled what spells the wizard had access to as well.
Evidence offered to support Batman as a 6th level rogue: none.
Evidence offered to support Thanos as a 20th level caster's speed bump: none.
Evidence offered to support Zeus as a 13th level druid: none.
Every time something comes up where the character in question displays power far beyond what is doable with Anzyr's suggested build, it's author fiat, or using different mechanics, or some other such. It's never the real answer, which is that Anzyr is bad at doing stats. Possibly due to a failure to read the rules in a logical manner, evidenced elsewhere. Possibly due to a distaste for the genre of myth.
Comic book heroes, much like old mythological heroes, have faced off against a myriad of threats, often far beyond what a sub CR 30 offers in Pathfinder. Case in point? Baba Yaga creates demon lords and subjugates a country. Anti-Monitor wiped out multiple universes. Darkseid drives a planet around the galaxy. Joker once turned the entire planet into monkeys. Or jokers, or something like that, I'm not entirely sure. But for you, that's what, a 10th level monk?
Yz, their version of a genie, has demonstrated power beyond wish, usable at will. As has Mxyzptlk. No doubt 7th level caster stuff.
Lex Luthor, ordinary human, has played twelve chess games concurrently while thinking up non-magical solutions to defeating Superman, cancer, cloning, etc. Probably a DC 15 check based on your insistence that DC 10 will name every city in the world, ever.
Green Arrow has done more crazy stuff with his arrows than any 20th level archer built off PF rules can manage.
And that's just the beginning, but no doubt just more author fiat (also known as storytelling) and not suggestive that your entire premise, that the DCU fits mostly under 10th level, is the typical poorly supported assertions and insistences we've come to expect from you.
Evidence? Sure lets do that.
Lets start with The Alexandrian article "D&D: Calibrating Your Expectations". The article shows how much the early system corroborates somewhat (key word) closely to human expectations. It then goes on to discuss why Aragorn is not a level 10+ Ranger. Batman is a human. A regular one. He is the pinnacle of being a human. He's our best investigator/martial artist/company manager/technology developer etc. Putting Batman at 6th level is sufficient for that. A 6th level person would be phenomenally better then the mostly level 1-3 population of our world. The issue isn't what he can *do* in the comics, but rather what Batman *is*. The Pinnacle of human excellence (as we think of it) isn't 20th level. It's 6th because again, when expectations are calibrated that's what it the system tells us it is.
Thus, I am putting Batman at 6th level. That's not unreasonable. In fact, its very well supported. Darkseid is a high level outsider. He can go toe to toe with Superman and trade punches that instantly end Batman's existence again because he only has the HP of a 6th level character, a single 20 HD outsider hit should deplete all of it. See how the expectations match up? Wish is capable of everything Yz and Mxyzptlk are capable of doing. I would have no problem statting them as outsiders with a Wish SLA.
Green Arrow cannot I assure you out beat a 20th level Archer in terms of range or firing speed. Considering how high their attack bonus gets, the simply stupid Range at which they can still hit a human target is... far. Very very far. Like, completely totally unrealistically far (and therefore off limits to the Green Arrow).
Why can a 20th level Caster drop Thanos easy-peasy? Because he is just a really strong, really fast, really hard to hurt outsider that can shoot energy beams. Whoop-tee-doo. Can he stop time? Bind other strong outsiders? Cast no-save-just-be-mind-controlled? I mean can he create copies of powerful creatures that then serve him loyally? No? Can he at least create copies of himself? No? Really? That's sad. Sure he's "immortal" but La-T-freaking-da, he gets trapped in other planes all the time. You know what really make him look sad? Trap the Soul. Oh sorry, no save, no SR, lose your body and be trapped. Seriously. Do tell why a 20th level caster *should* be afraid of him? I mean can he even fly on his own? Cause really...
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here is the Link for ya Anzyr...
2nd -- Supes goes off-planet for a bit, finds a convenient meteorite, proceeds to fling it at the Batcave, with Batman inside (which Superman can indeed check from space). There, dead bat.Now can we please drop this tangent? Please?
Superman doesn't kill people. (Except that one time.)
That is a moral thing. That has NOTHING to do with Superman's power. Want an idea of just what superman is if he wasn't a boyscout? Play Injustice. Superman singlehandedly kills/enslaves just about everybody...
*sigh* Okay. Okay. I'm just gonna add two things, then can we get over the comic book contests, please?
1st -- If Batman, without his gear, was dropped from orbit, would he die from the impact? If yes, he's not level 20.
I've never seen it in the comic, so I can't answer what would happen there.
By the game rules, maximum falling damage in M&M is 16 ranks. But Batman has an Acrobatics skill of +15 and reducing falling damage by tumbling is DC 5. Assuming Batman's player rolls an 11 that's 11+15=26, or 5 successes which reduces the falling damage to 11 ranks. That makes Batman's toughness save DC = 11+15 or also 26. Batman's Toughness, including his Defensive Roll is 8. So if he again rolls an 11 that makes a total of 19, or 2 degrees of failure. That is defined as, "the target is dazed until the end of their next turn and has a -1 circumstance penalty to further checks against damage." So yes, Batman easily survives falling naked from orbit using his incredible acrobatic skill and ability to roll with damage.
2nd -- Supes goes off-planet for a bit, finds a convenient meteorite, proceeds to fling it at the Batcave, with Batman inside (which Superman can indeed check from space). There, dead bat.Now can we please drop this tangent? Please?
Superman doesn't kill people. (Except that one time.)
I would hope... *hope* that people would have a problem with the idea that an ordinary human could survive a fall from the stratosphere as unbelievable. But we are getting far a field. The big problem again is that Magic has options. Reality changing options. Fighters can only interact with reality on the terms of "smack if with stick". When an airship gets hit with Lightning and needs repaired... you know what the Fighter can contribute? He can hold a rope. And fulfill his life goal of being a Wharf. (OoTS reference!)