Can paladins cast somatic spells with heavy shield and 1h weapon?


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Can a paladin cast spells with somatic components while wielding a heavy shield and a 1h weapon?


No.

You are required to have one hand free to cast spells with a somatic component.

To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell.

PRD wrote:


Components
A spell's components explain what you must do or possess to cast the spell. The components entry in a spell description includes abbreviations that tell you what type of components it requires. Specifics for material and focus components are given at the end of the descriptive text. Usually you don't need to worry about components, but when you can't use a component for some reason or when a material or focus component is expensive, then the components are important.

Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance of spoiling any spell with a verbal component that he tries to cast.

Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.

Material (M): A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don't bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.

Focus (F): A focus component is a prop of some sort. Unlike a material component, a focus is not consumed when the spell is cast and can be reused. As with material components, the cost for a focus is negligible unless a price is given. Assume that focus components of negligible cost are in your spell component pouch.

Divine Focus (DF): A divine focus component is an item of spiritual significance. The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character's faith. The divine focus for a druid or a ranger is a sprig of holly, or some other sacred plant.

If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash) and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash).

Very Respectfully,

--Bacon


Weapon Cord will allow you to cast and then use your move action to pull your weapon back to your hand.


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Yes, but in a contrived fashion. You cannot use a heavy shield, because it says you can't use the hand for anything.

However, a light shield says you could hold objects. When casting the spell you use a free action to move your sword from your weapon hand to hold it in the other hand (holding, but not wielding) and then use your free hand to cast the spell. Then move the weapon back as a free action.

And this is the better way to go, as ultimately the difference between a heavy shield and light shield is 1 point of AC.

Grand Lodge

Slacker2010 wrote:
Weapon Cord will allow you to cast and then use your move action to pull your weapon back to your hand.

Other than the weapon cord causing it to be close enough to pick up, how is that any different than just dropping it without a weapon cord?

It's still a "pick up weapon" action, isn't it?

Sczarni

Picking a weapon off the ground provokes.

Grand Lodge

Nefreet wrote:
Picking a weapon off the ground provokes.

Right, but isn't the weapon corded weapon still on the ground?


I agree that everything that is stated is RAW/RAI, but it's really bad RAW/RAI. Especially with regards to the likes of clerics, who seem to never have a good reason to use shields they have proficiency in, as it locks them out of most of their spell casting, which is their primary class feature.

Unless of course, you allow the small shield loophole.


claudekennilol wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Picking a weapon off the ground provokes.
Right, but isn't the weapon corded weapon still on the ground?

Logically it would probably be touching the ground, but it wouldn't be "on" the ground. It would still be "attended" because of the cord.

Sczarni

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Using a buckler or light shield is not a "loophole".

It's a mechanical choice built into the game.

If you're a Fighter, there isn't much reason not to grab a heavy shield.

If you're a spellcaster, you're going to grab something lighter.

Grand Lodge

Melkiador wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Picking a weapon off the ground provokes.
Right, but isn't the weapon corded weapon still on the ground?
Logically it would probably be touching the ground, but it wouldn't be "on" the ground. It would still be "attended" because of the cord.

Can you point me to where it says that "I won't get an AoO because of a weapon cord"? Or the chain of logic?

Sczarni

Weapon Cords are only 2 feet long. Unless you're a Halfling, the weapon never leaves your person.


claudekennilol wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Picking a weapon off the ground provokes.
Right, but isn't the weapon corded weapon still on the ground?
Logically it would probably be touching the ground, but it wouldn't be "on" the ground. It would still be "attended" because of the cord.
Can you point me to where it says that "I won't get an AoO because of a weapon cord"? Or the chain of logic?

Basically, because drawing a weapon doesn't provoke, and there is nothing to say that these are different actions.

prd wrote:

Draw or Sheathe a Weapon

Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.

If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.

Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.

Silver Crusade

This is why my battle oracle and weapon wielding clerics all have bucklers instead of heavy shields.

Grand Lodge

I'm not convinced. If something is tied to my wrist, and I reach down with that wrist (hand) to get it, it's still 2' away until it touches the ground, at which point I'm picking it up off the ground. Drawing a weapon =/= getting that hand on something dangling off of your wrist.

Melkiador wrote:
Basically, because drawing a weapon doesn't provoke, and there is nothing to say that these are different actions.

There's nothing that says they're same action, which is far more important.

I'm definitely open to persuasion, but so far there I haven't seen enough to convince me.


Well, retrieving a weapon on a weapon cord used to be a free action. But because of weapon cord shenanigans with gunslingers they had to change the type of action it was so that people couldn't have their crazy two weapon fighting gunslingers of mass destruction, which were tearing up tables at PFS.

In general free actions don't provoke. So, I would consider this partial basis that retrieving a weapon via weapon cord still doesn't provoke.


claudekennilol wrote:

I'm not convinced. If something is tied to my wrist, and I reach down with that wrist (hand) to get it, it's still 2' away until it touches the ground, at which point I'm picking it up off the ground. Drawing a weapon =/= getting that hand on something dangling off of your wrist.

Melkiador wrote:
Basically, because drawing a weapon doesn't provoke, and there is nothing to say that these are different actions.

There's nothing that says they're same action, which is far more important.

I'm definitely open to persuasion, but so far there I haven't seen enough to convince me.

"Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat..." It never specifies drawing from what, because not everything is a sword and has a proper sheath. Drawing a mace actually kind of implies that you are drawing it from some sort of a cord already, as there is no other reasonable way to wear one.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Your one-handed weapon could simply be sheathed when you cast your spell, and then you draw the weapon and strike with it. You'll need either quickdraw, or to put up with the usual action cost for drawing a weapon (free during movement, IIRC). Alternatively, your shield could be slung over your back and drawn after casting the spell, for the usual cost in the action economy.

I tend to think every point of AC is critically important for a paladin, making a heavy shield a must-have item. But if you have spells with somatic components that you consider important to cast in the middle of combat, I suppose a buckler could be a viable alternative to a heavy shield.

Grand Lodge

Claxon wrote:

Well, retrieving a weapon on a weapon cord used to be a free action. But because of weapon cord shenanigans with gunslingers they had to change the type of action it was so that people couldn't have their crazy two weapon fighting gunslingers of mass destruction, which were tearing up tables at PFS.

In general free actions don't provoke. So, I would consider this partial basis that retrieving a weapon via weapon cord still doesn't provoke.

Right, they had to go and ruin for the melee users it was intended for.. Anyway, I'm still not convinced. I'm going to start a new thread for discussion for it as this is far off topic from what was originally asked (and promptly answered).

Melkiador wrote:
Drawing a mace actually kind of implies that you are drawing it from some sort of a cord already, as there is no other reasonable way to wear one.

Right, a loop at the waist, or hanging on the back.. Not dangling about by your feet..


The rules question was already answered. I just wanted to add that I have no problems allowing a caster with a heavy shield to put his weapon into the shield hand and back again as a free action.

I imagine a large shield being strapped to your forearm with the hand gripping one of the leather straps. With this hand you also hold your weapon while casting.

I find there a some things in the game that are harder to imagine or more unbalanced.

Silver Crusade

Turgan wrote:

The rules question was already answered. I just wanted to add that I have no problems allowing a caster with a heavy shield to put his weapon into the shield hand and back again as a free action.

I imagine a large shield being strapped to your forearm with the hand gripping one of the leather straps. With this hand you also hold your weapon while casting.

I find there a some things in the game that are harder to imagine or more unbalanced.

Except that the description of heavy shields in the rules explicitly say that the hand holding the shield can't hold anything else. That's what light shields are for.

As for weapon cords, as someone noted above, they're only 2 feet long. The whole point is that you just jerk your wrist with the cord attached upwards, and the weapon flies up towards your hand, so you don't have to reach to get it off the ground. I don't know if the specific mechanics involved have been redefined in game terms since the gunslinger nerf, but it definitely shouldn't provoke and can't possibly be slower than drawing a weapon from a sheathe.


Just be glad they're not using the more "realistic" shields, with a single handle in the center.


Athaleon wrote:
Just be glad they're not using the more "realistic" shields, with a single handle in the center.

Most shield design I have seen, and admittedly its not something I see every day since they haven't been used in a couple hundred years, are designed to have two straps or a strap and a handle. Very few had a sole grip in the center, mostly because based on physics it's a worse design that makes it more difficult to keep control of the shield after blocking blows with it.

Edit: In researching this more it seems to be a transition from antiquity to the middle ages that saw the change in shield design.

Double Edit: It's called Enarmes.

Quote:

Enarmes are the leather gripping straps attached to the back of shields throughout the Medieval period.

Enarmes represented a significant advance in shield technology, as beforehand shields were held by a single bar that ran behind a boss. Enarmes were held in place by riveting through the leather and the facing of the shield, and reinforced with small, square-cut washers. Enarmes are visible on shields in the Bayeux Tapestry

So, the single boss design is the older design which gave way to enarmes.


Pass weapon to shield hand (Free action). If it's a heavy shield you can't do this and still be considered 'wielding' the shield. You don't care about that though. You are now 'carrying' both but 'wielding' neither. You get no AC bonus from the shield and do not threaten with the sword. They are just being carried.

Cast the spell with the empty hand.

If your spellcasting provokes an AoO you do not get the benefit of your shield (or any defensive properties of the weapon) while you are attacked.

Pass weapon back to empty hand (free action). You are now welding both weapon and shield again.

End your turn.


Claxon wrote:
So, the single boss design is the older design which gave way to enarmes.

"Gave way" may be a little misleading. There are advantages to the center hold. A center hold shield is much more of a weapon that blocks.

It's probably comparable to how the longbow "gave way" to the crossbow. Sure the longbow is "better", but it took forever to train longbowmen compared to crossbowmen.

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