What sort of CR adjustment should I make for gestalt PCs?


Advice


So I'm considering running a campaign where the PCs are gestalt clerics, but I don't really know what sort of adjustment I should be making to the enemies to account for the additional class features.

Any suggestions?


Do t the gestalt rules themselves go into this? I believe it's +1 or +2 CR.

Edit, found it on the SRD:
Challenge Ratings
Gestalt characters can obviously handle more opposition than standard characters. The simplest way to compensate for this is to use adventures with tougher monsters. In general, a party of four gestalt characters can handle multiple encounters with a single monster of a Challenge Rating equal to their average level + 1. If the monster poses a challenge because it forces the characters to succeed on life-threatening saving throws (such as with a medusa or a wyvern), it’s even weaker against gestalt characters, who have few or no weak saves. Characters can handle multiple encounters with such monsters at a Challenge Rating equal to their average level + 2. A shambling mound (CR 6) or a medusa (CR 7) would be appropriate average encounters for four 5th-level gestalt characters. If you take this approach, realize that characters gain levels faster than in a typical campaign, because they’re gaining experience points as if those encounters were harder than they actually are. You’re obviously comfortable with a high-powered game, so faster advancement may be an additional benefit, not a problem. if you rely on published adventures, this is the easiest option.

If you want to keep level advancement at the standard average of thirteen encounters per level, reduce the Challenge Ratings of all the monsters and NPCs in your campaign by 1 (or by 2 if they rely on failed PC saving throws to pose a challenge). The shambling mound and the medusa would both become CR 5 monsters, and the gestalt characters gain levels at the usual rate. Monsters with a Challenge Rating of 1 become CR 1/2, and other monsters with fractional Challenge Ratings have their CRs cut in half (kobolds become CR 1/6, in other words). Many staple low-CR monsters don’t work well against a party of gestalt characters, even 1st-level gestalts.

Sovereign Court

Llyarden wrote:

So I'm considering running a campaign where the PCs are gestalt clerics, but I don't really know what sort of adjustment I should be making to the enemies to account for the additional class features.

Any suggestions?

+1..+2

The PCs are still limited in one big area. Actions. The may have 2 classes, and their options of what to do each round has grown, but they still only get 1 standard, 1 move, 1 swift.


I have not been able to find any gestalt rules so far. If you could link me to them that would be appreciated.

Sovereign Court

Gestalt Link


Impossible to determine.

Firstly, CR is a total crapshoot. It is far from an exact science; at best it's a loose guideline.

Secondly, classes vary insanely in power level, so whatever the character is combined with will make a huge difference in his 'effective level'.


It's +1 at best. I mean, a Gestalt Paladin|Oracle is roughly equal to a non-gestalt Paladin with an Oracle cohort (assuming same levels for the Paladins and lvl-2 for the cohort).

EDIT:

Zhayne wrote:
Secondly, classes vary insanely in power level, so whatever the character is combined with will make a huge difference in his 'effective level'.

Also very much true. A Fighter|Rogue is roughly on par with a non-gestalt Ranger. A wild-shaping Druid|Monk is a complete wrecking ball with next to no weaknesses.


The OP specified they were all gestalt cleric/X, just for the record.


Then CR really needs thrown out, because nothing stands a chance.


Zhayne wrote:
The OP specified they were all gestalt cleric/X, just for the record.

Oh, missed that. Yeah, depends heavily on spell selection. If all of them cast nothing but cure spells, there's nothing to worry about. If not, Azten has the gist of it.


Having run a Gestalt campaign, here's the advice I can give anyone else who wants to do the same. First, note the following:

1) given the action economy of the game, many Gestalt builds are not actually stronger. A caster/caster is still limited to the same number of spells as a non-gestalt caster.

2) that having been said, a gestalt character may have more resources to draw on per diem. A caster/caster could conceivably have twice as many spells that they can use. Any class that has abilities that have daily uses or use a 'pool' mechanic, can continue to use those resources longer.

3) class features of two classes can create unintended synergies. A Paladin/Oracle doesn't sound so bad, but certain Revelations (Sidestep Secret and it's ilk) can become quite potent with standard multiclassing- Gestalt takes away any penalties involved in creating such a character.

Sometimes even increased BAB and hit points can greatly boost a build's effectivness. A Druid/Fighter or Druid/Barbarian Gestalt makes Wild Shape much more dangerous, for example.

Simply increasing the CR of encounters isn't enough- you need to examine the builds your party is using, because it all comes down to how well the two classes synergize. A Barbarian/Wizard has two conflicting play styles, but is still viable because it can switch from one to the other.

A Barbarian/Rogue, on the other hand, can generally utilize all of their resources simultaneously- just imagine what happens when a pouncing, sneak attacking, Barbarian armed with multiple natural weapons while raging, can do if they win initiative.

If your PC's have lots of resources, but generally don't synergize well, you need not stronger enemies, but more encounters between rest periods. In this scenario, you should use a bigger budget for enemies, but don't necessarily use stronger monsters.

If your PC's have highly synergistic abilities, that allow them to hit harder, as opposed to lasting longer, stronger enemies should be used, but in limited numbers.

Most groups will fall somewhere in the middle, with both kinds of Gestalt characters. I would, in such cases, err on the side of more enemies per encounter. It's not especially fair to a Ranger/Cleric to have them routinely fight higher CR enemies just because they're in the same party as a more beastly Gestalt.

It's important, however, to not increase the xp of encounters. Doing so will just cause characters to advance more quickly, and the issues of a Gestalt campaign will quickly escalate. Increase the encounter budget when building the encounter by +1 or +2, but have it still only count as a standard encounter.

(So if you want to run a CR +1 encounter, for example, give yourself the budget of a CR +3 encounter, but it still only awards the xp of a CR +1).

In addition, groups with greater resources might not need to level as quickly, so consider using slower xp advancement.

A quick and dirty way to adjust encounters is to apply the Advanced simple template to monsters, but not increase their CR. While your Gestalt characters may be more powerfully offensively, they still only have the hit points of a character of their level. Higher CR monsters are not only offensively nastier, but they have a bigger pool of hit points, which means they can live to attack more often- a double whammy.

The Advanced template boosts numbers across the board, making the monster seem like it's higher CR, but the increased hit points for having +4 Con is less bothersome than the increased Hit Dice of a higher CR enemy.

As a final bit of advice, I advise caution with regards to Archetypes. Some Archetypes allow a class to gain the functionality of another class, which can result in Gestalts who have the same or similar ability granted to them from both classes simultaneously. Consider, for example, a Barbarian/Fighter [Viking], who gains the Rage ability twice, at differing advancement rates, and, worse, can trade Fighter bonus feats for more Rage Powers, on top of those granted by the Barbarian progression.

It would be simpler to ban archetypes until you've considered their impact on your game.

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