Greetings Fellow Gamers,
If a character has the Catch off Guard feat, would they threaten the areas around them with an improvised weapon?
Mule picks up a broken axe handle to use as a makeshift bludgeon. Would he be able to make attacks of opportunity against the unarmed lumberjacks in the camp?
Hans has a heavy crossbow and has been peppering goblins from afar, when suddenly a sneak leaps from the underbrush and tries to grapple him. Hans brings the stock of his crossbow onto the top of the goblin's head, knocking him out.
Eodyn has a longspear, and is fighting against an ork who steps in and tries to sunder the spear, and Eodyn drives the haft of the spear into the the orks face.
All of these characters have "Catch off Guard"
They all seem reasonable to me.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
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There might be inherent game balance issues in allowing catch off guard to threaten adjacent squares with a reach weapon.
In that case, probably the way it should work is that the reach weapon, once used as an improvised weapon, no longer counts as a reach weapon until a move action is spent to re-ready it as a 'proper' weapon.
Well, the longspear wouldn't do 'lonspear' damage. if uses as an improvised weapon, it would probably only do d6 bludgeoning damage. (like a club, except you couldn't get 1 1/2 times your strength to damage for using it '2-handed' though. same with the crossbow.)
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
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Still, threatening both adjacent AND at reach simultaneously is just reeking of wrongness. Not being able to AoO adjacent is basically the price of using a reach weapon. Even taking the polearm master archetype doesn't allow for that, so simply from game balance something as simple as a feat shouldn't allow for it to happen.
So it's not RAW that you'd lose reach to turn your reach weapon into an improvised weapon to AoO adjacent, I'd say it's RAI.. and even if not RAI it's at least a fair adjudication.
Well, I could get armor spikes and threaten simultaneously, so I'm not sure how it 'reeks of wrongness'
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
Ha ha, this reminds me of a very long and rage filled thread. Some dms allow it, using the haft of a polearm as a club or the like (as is done in martial arts that use polearms), but some disagree, saying the rules simply do not allow it.
Well, I could get armor spikes and threaten simultaneously, so I'm not sure how it 'reeks of wrongness'
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
Quite right. There is nothing wrong about it. You could also take Improved Unarmed Strike, or a level of monk, or a dozen other options that would allow you to do this sort of thing.
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The hesitancy comes from the ability to circumvent the natural drawback that is meant to balance out the benefit, namely an extend reach. I agree to a point; I would never let someone just use the longspear as a club for free but I would allow the Catch Off Guard feat to work in this case (making it a 1d6 improvised weapon). The reasoning is that I don't mind players avoiding drawbacks if they spend a feat to do so, be it catch off guard, imp. unarmed strike, exotic weapon prof, etc.
Quite right. There is nothing wrong about it. You could also take Improved Unarmed Strike, or a level of monk, or a dozen other options that would allow you to do this sort of thing.Well, I could get armor spikes and threaten simultaneously, so I'm not sure how it 'reeks of wrongness'
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
I seem to remember a very long thread on this and I'm on the "you don't threaten with both" side but that was argued exhaustively there. I do agree with the use of "Catch off guard feat" circumventing the restriction it though it's what feats are for.
Just the other day, I was playing shogun, and one of my onna bushi female samurai tried to close on a polearm user.
Cops a haft to the face and is pushed well back, falling over.
Brutal.
Sounds like catch off guard works perfectly for this. You know it is going to be great if you do a lot of damage and then finish them off with a low damage attack. It definitely allows a cool combat option.
Another question I have for Catch off Guard:
Could I use it to use a tower shield as an improvised weapon? It would, of course, include the penalties to attacks that the shield incurs as well as the penalty for using an improvised weapon.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
You normally cannot bash with a tower shield.
Shield, Tower: This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. As a standard action, however, you can use a tower shield to grant you total cover until the beginning of your next turn. When using a tower shield in this way, you must choose one edge of your space. That edge is treated as a solid wall for attacks targeting you only. You gain total cover for attacks that pass through this edge and no cover for attacks that do not pass through this edge (see Combat). The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
It is quite amusing that you can't bash someone with a wall of wood or steel in your hands.
I think the idea is more so that it is too heavy to move fast enough over such a short distance (your reach) that you can't get any effective damage from it.
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I think the idea is more so that it is too heavy to move fast enough over such a short distance (your reach) that you can't get any effective damage from it.
Exactly. I would rule that you couldn't use a Tower Shield as an improvised weapon for the same reason you couldn't use a table as an improvised weapon -- it is too large and unwieldy.
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Exactly. I would rule that you couldn't use a Tower Shield as an improvised weapon for the same reason you couldn't use a table as an improvised weapon -- it is too large and unwieldy.
But you can use a table to an improvised weapon.
Just because you can't lift it up and hit someone over the head with it doesn't mean you can't use it as a weapon.We're not talking feast hall trestle tables here.
Shove it rapidly into someone's midsection while it still remains on the floor?
Tip it up and over on top of someone?
Grab them by the scruff of the neck and drive their face into it? (This last one might be a grapple check depending on how your GM lets you 'fluff' your attack routines.)
Basically, if you've seen a Jackie Chan movie, you have an idea on how any piece of furniture could become a weapon. You don't have to be able to lift it up, but you do have to be able to manipulate it.
Tower Shields don't slow you down (like armor does), and it is moving just the same distance as a heavy shield. And a STR 17 Fighter putting his weight behind either of them will still be like getting hit by a truck. It's awkward, yes. If you are using it to 'bash' you aren't going to get a good 'swing' like you could with a light/heavy shield. Your options are pretty much 'shoulder check' and 'edge drop' but you could still use it.
The penalty for the tower shield and improvisation should adequately reflect that you are telegraphing your attack allowing the enemy to evade/brace for it properly; resulting in your missed attack.
Just my opinions.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
Dot for thought.
See Dark souls, especially dark souls 2. Two handing a mighty tower shield and bashing and crushing foes. Smash them down, then slice open with the rim as they try to get up. It is glorious.
That you can't bash with a tower shield is a bit ridiculous. If you take that tower shield and make it just a bit smaller, say making it a large shield, suddenly it is great for crushing low hp foes, but if its a bit larger than that, no go!