Best Faction for a stupid Paladin-type?


Pathfinder Society


So, I've been out of PFS for about two years, and thinking about playing again today or tomorrow.

My idea is a Tiefling (Demon-Spawn) Paladin (Iroran Paladin) who will later take a single dip into Sohei in order to flurry with his Sansetsukon.

Point buy: Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 15
With Racial: Str 18 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 5 Wis 10 Cha 17

So, yeah, he's an idiot. He tries to follow the path laid out by his adoptive father, an Iroran Monk, to seek perfection in himself... but he's not always sure what that means.

First skill point will probably be into Diplomacy (though I'm open to alternate suggestions), so he'll start with a +7, and then the single skill point he gets each level will probably go into various class skills, Sense Motive, etc., to get the little boost on them. Once he dips into Sohei at his fifth level, I'll put one in Perception.

Now, I'm fully aware that no matter which faction he takes, there are some faction missions he won't be able to do, being mentally challenged. Which faction, or factions, are the *most* compatible, though?

5/5 5/55/55/5

The silver crusade was pretty much made for people like him. Its headed by a paladin, so there shouldn't be any conflict.

Dark Archive 4/5 Venture-Agent, Maryland— Baltimore aka DrParty06

Andoran (Liberty's Edge) & Silver Crusade are very popular among paladins. Though you could easily spin him as being an unsuspecting pawn for Cheliax (Dark Archive), Sczarni/Qadira (The Exchange), or Taldor (Sovereign Court). One thing to be aware of is there aren't missions that need to be completed for each faction anymore, just a secondary success condition for the group and the potential to earn additional boons for members of a faction that don't always depend on doing certain things like the old faction missions.

Sovereign Court

And of course you can always make an argument for Grand Lodge. He doesn't have ulterior motives like most Pathfiners - he just goes where the boss guy tells him to because he trusts them. (Except if they're bad! He doesn't like the bad men!)


DrParty06 wrote:
One thing to be aware of is there aren't missions that need to be completed for each faction anymore, just a secondary success condition for the group and the potential to earn additional boons for members of a faction that don't always depend on doing certain things like the old faction missions.

Oh, that's new! So, you're saying my prestige won't be so dependent on my skills in general?

I don't think I want to go the pawn route, so it's probably going to be Silver Crusade based on what people have said... it's the most straightforward. I don't think "Rock" has the subtlety for Andor.


Oh, and this is unrelated, but I can do the following, yes:

Take Power Attack as my 1st level feat, and then change it to Fey's Foundling when I reach level 2? Because you can change your character choices the first time you level in PFS?

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

Rudy2 wrote:

Oh, and this is unrelated, but I can do the following, yes:

Take Power Attack as my 1st level feat, and then change it to Fey's Foundling when I reach level 2? Because you can change your character choices the first time you level in PFS?

If you look at This Post from Mike Brock. You wouldn't be able to retrain power attack for fey foundling at level 2.


At level 2, no, but before level 2 you could. Like, before playing the session that will bring you to level 2, yes?

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play wrote:
At the start of a Pathfinder’s career, you are allowed to adjust your character before settling in for the long haul. Before you level up a character for the first time, you may change any aspect of it except its Pathfinder Society Number. Changes may only be made between adventures and before playing as a character above 1st level.

If I'm reading this correctly, on the slow advancement track, I could play the first two sessions with power attack, and then switch before the third session (the one that would bring me to level 2).

Silver Crusade

If you qualified for Fey Foundling at level 1 (I don't remember if there are any prerequisites), then that should be fine, using first level rebuild rules. You can change anything you want on your character before playing for the first time at level 2. So even after your 3rd session at normal advancement (or 6th at slow track, but I wouldn't slow track level 1), just before you play at 2nd level.

But honestly, I don't see why you'd bother doing that. Just take Fey Foundling up front. Power Attack is usually unnecessary at low levels, since low level characters miss a lot, and melee types generally do enough damage not to need the damage boost against low level enemies. I usually wait until at least level 3 to take Power Attack on my melee characters, because I won't use it at lower levels, anyway. The only exception is if you need it as a prerequisite for something else.


The way I look at it is this: Fey Foundling does almost nothing for me at level 1; won't even have a wand of CLW at that point. At level 2, when I get Lay on Hands, it suddenly becomes much better.

If I do train away Power Attack, I'll get it back at level 3, though.

Silver Crusade

Like I said, Power Attack really isn't useful at low level. The penalty to hit is a bigger problem when your chance to hit is that low to begin with, compared to higher levels when it doesn't matter as much.

And you should pick up a wand of CLW after your first adventure. It only costs 2 prestige, which you'll usually get the first time out, though sometimes, it may take until the second scenario. Even without one, someone else in the party will hopefully have some healing, and if you're on the front line, you'll end up needing it at some point.

Shadow Lodge

Brian Lefebvre wrote:

If you look at This Post from Mike Brock. You wouldn't be able to retrain power attack for fey foundling at level 2.

That thread was about the Ultimate Campaign retraining rules, not the PFS first level retraining rules.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Rudy2 wrote:
The way I look at it is this: Fey Foundling does almost nothing for me at level 1; won't even have a wand of CLW at that point. At level 2, when I get Lay on Hands, it suddenly becomes much better.

Of course, at 1st level people are usually only healing you for 1d8+1 or 1d6. So adding 2 on top of that would help when they roll a 1 on the die.

5/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

SCPRedMage wrote:
Brian Lefebvre wrote:

If you look at This Post from Mike Brock. You wouldn't be able to retrain power attack for fey foundling at level 2.

That thread was about the Ultimate Campaign retraining rules, not the PFS first level retraining rules.

The problem is if he waits until after the third game to retrain he is level 2, and does not meet the requirements of the feat.

The first level retrain rules allows him to change anything before playing at level 2, but he still needs to meet the requirements for any choices that he selects.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

That's needless semantics. He is retraining his first level feat, not taking a new feat at 2nd level.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DrParty06 wrote:
Andoran (Liberty's Edge) & Silver Crusade are very popular among paladins. Though you could easily spin him as being an unsuspecting pawn for Cheliax (Dark Archive), Sczarni/Qadira (The Exchange), or Taldor (Sovereign Court). One thing to be aware of is there aren't missions that need to be completed for each faction anymore, just a secondary success condition for the group and the potential to earn additional boons for members of a faction that don't always depend on doing certain things like the old faction missions.

Up until recently, if there was any faction that I would describe as a pack of MurderHobos, it would be the Andorans. The running joke locally was that standard equipment for an Andoran PC would be a watertight bag for the head you'd get sent to collect. When faced with a mission that could be negotiated with peacefully, every Andoran I've ever seen has frequently chosen the violent and murder options. In one instance, the party was being led out of the desert by a water merchant who had a slave it was the Andoran's mission to free. The merchant in question had essentially saved the party's lives because they were lost in the desert.

The Andoran a "neutral good" druid. without preamble, snuck on the merchant and stabbed him through the back on the spot. He did not consider any other option, just cold-blooded murder. With his other actions during the module, he's about the only PFS player whom I've pushed an alignment change (to neutral) on him.

Andoran is supposed to be a "good" nation, but the people who represent her, are a pack of violent scum as far as I can see.

5/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

TriOmegaZero wrote:
That's needless semantics. He is retraining his first level feat, not taking a new feat at 2nd level.

A player could say the same thing about retraining their level 1 feat, while using the Ultimate Campaign retraining rules, to take Fey Foundling as his level 1 feat.

Mike's post says that you must meet the requirements of your choice in order to select it when retraining.

Silver Crusade

Let me see if I understand Brian's train of thought here:
I start a character as a half-orc barbarian with Power Attack. After three sessions, I decide that I don't like playing a martial class, so I change to a halfling wizard. I can't keep Power Attack because I no longer have a 13 Str. However, I'm not allowed to change it to Arcane Strike because my barbarian (who no longer exists) couldn't cast spells?

Where do people come up with this stuff? More importantly, WHY do people come up with this stuff? There is no reason to make this any more difficult than necessary.

You can change anything about your character that you want except the character number, provided you do so before playing above level 1.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Brian Lefebvre wrote:
A player could say the same thing about retraining their level 1 feat, while using the Ultimate Campaign retraining rules, to take Fey Foundling as his level 1 feat.

PFS rebuild and Ultimate Campaign retraining are two separate things.

Silver Crusade

My 5 int paladin is Silver Crusade. She also took Fey Foundling as her level 1 feat and held off on Power Attack until level 9. And so far she hasn't even come close to dying, nor has she ever lagged behind in the damage dealing department. Take from that what you will.

5/5

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Brian Lefebvre wrote:
A player could say the same thing about retraining their level 1 feat, while using the Ultimate Campaign retraining rules, to take Fey Foundling as his level 1 feat.
PFS rebuild and Ultimate Campaign retraining are two separate things.

This.

The PFS rebuild is rebuilding WHILE you are level 1. You aren't considered 2nd level until you hit the table with that level 2 character. So, if you wish to change out a feat that requires you to be 1st level, you still are.

Retraining using the Ult. Campaign rules only go into effect AFTER you are actually 2nd or higher levels. At that point in time, you are no longer 1st level and no longer qualify for feats that have to be taken at 1st level.

Silver Crusade

LazarX wrote:

Up until recently, if there was any faction that I would describe as a pack of MurderHobos, it would be the Andorans. The running joke locally was that standard equipment for an Andoran PC would be a watertight bag for the head you'd get sent to collect. When faced with a mission that could be negotiated with peacefully, every Andoran I've ever seen has frequently chosen the violent and murder options. In one instance, the party was being led out of the desert by a water merchant who had a slave it was the Andoran's mission to free. The merchant in question had essentially saved the party's lives because they were lost in the desert.

The Andoran a "neutral good" druid. without preamble, snuck on the merchant and stabbed him through the back on the spot. He did not consider any other option, just cold-blooded murder. With his other actions during the module, he's about the only PFS player whom I've pushed an alignment change (to neutral) on him.

Andoran is supposed to be a "good" nation, but the people who represent her, are a pack of violent scum as far as I can see.

I played that same scenario with my ex-slave bard who is loyal to Andoran. I first tried to talk the merchant into giving up his slave, then eventually "compensated him" for the loss of property if he did (essentially buying the slave and freeing him).

I also have a lawful good cleric of Sarenrae in the Silver Crusade, who played quite a few earlier seasons scenarios back when faction missions mattered, and she got stuck with Andoran faction missions a few times. As a priestess to the goddess of redemption, she was reluctant when she first read faction missions to kill people. But in every case, those people proved themselves irredeemably evil by the time she reached that point, so she ended up completing those faction missions without hesitation.

The one time she actually refused to do an Andoren faction mission, it was to spread lies about a group of slavers. Since Sarenrae is also the goddess of honesty, which is often overlooked, but this particular priestess takes that seriously (lawful good and all that), my character refused to make up rumors that way. Because we had two actual Andorans at the table, the mission got done anyway, so I still got the prestige, but I would have been fine with it if I hadn't.

My point is that not all Andorans are murderhobos. Some players do understand how to be subtle about this stuff, and acknowledge shades of grey. I personally find role playing a lawful good character in that faction to be an interesting RP challenge sometimes, but a fun one. But then, I'm also the guy with a chaotic good gnome prankster bard in the Silver Crusade.

5/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

Sniggevert wrote:

This.

The PFS rebuild is rebuilding WHILE you are level 1. You aren't considered 2nd level until you hit the table with that level 2 character. So, if you wish to change out a feat that requires you to be 1st level, you still are.

Retraining using the Ult. Campaign rules only go into effect AFTER you are actually 2nd or higher levels. At that point in time, you are no longer 1st level and no longer qualify for feats that have to be taken at 1st level.

A character is level 2 when it has acquired 3 xp. A 3 xp character is eligible to make use of the level one retraining rule, even though it is level 2, until it is played at level 2.

Those level 2 characters with 3 xp are completely mutable because level 1 can be freely retrained, and the second level selections aren't locked it yet since the character had not been played.

If the OP retrains power attack for fey foundling while he has 1xp or 2 xp he is fine. It is when he tries to retrain power attack for fey foundling at 3xp where he runs into the problem of not being eligible for the fey foundling feat.

The Fox wrote:

Let me see if I understand Brian's train of thought here:

I start a character as a half-orc barbarian with Power Attack. After three sessions, I decide that I don't like playing a martial class, so I change to a halfling wizard. I can't keep Power Attack because I no longer have a 13 Str. However, I'm not allowed to change it to Arcane Strike because my barbarian (who no longer exists) couldn't cast spells?

Where do people come up with this stuff? More importantly, WHY do people come up with this stuff? There is no reason to make this any more difficult than necessary.

You can change anything about your character that you want except the character number, provided you do so before playing above level 1.

Retraining stats, race, class, feats, skills, spells, etc can be done in any order. If changing a stat or class leaves you with an illegal feat selection then you would be forced to choice a legitimate option before finishing retraining.

5/5

Brian Lefebvre wrote:
Sniggevert wrote:

This.

The PFS rebuild is rebuilding WHILE you are level 1. You aren't considered 2nd level until you hit the table with that level 2 character. So, if you wish to change out a feat that requires you to be 1st level, you still are.

Retraining using the Ult. Campaign rules only go into effect AFTER you are actually 2nd or higher levels. At that point in time, you are no longer 1st level and no longer qualify for feats that have to be taken at 1st level.

A character is level 2 when it has acquired 3 xp. A 3 xp character is eligible to make use of the level one retraining rule, even though it is level 2, until it is played at level 2.

Those level 2 characters with 3 xp are completely mutable because level 1 can be freely retrained, and the second level selections aren't locked it yet since the character had not been played.

That's not the distinction made in the Guide however.

The Guide wrote:


At the start of a Pathfinder’s career, you are allowed to
adjust your character before settling in for the long haul.
Before you level up a character for the first time, you
may change any aspect of it except its Pathfinder Society
Number. Changes may only be made between adventures
and before playing as a character above 1st level.
Any
exceptions will be noted in the Pathfinder Society FAQ.
You are able to keep all treasure, Prestige Points, special
boons, and XP that you have earned and apply them to the
character once you retrain as long as the character meets
the criteria above.

After 1st level, if you own a copy of Pathfinder RPG
Ultimate Campaign, you may use the retraining rules that
begin on page 188 to alter your character.
Such changes
must be made in the presence of a Pathfinder Society
GM, the GM must initial each change, and each change
must be noted on an official Pathfinder Society Chronicle
sheet. If the GM wishes to audit your character before the
changes are made, you must present the character to the
GM. If time is a limiting factor, the GM may choose not to
allow retraining during that session. When utilizing these
retraining rules, you must expend wealth as outlined in
the Retraining section of Ultimate Campaign, as well as
1 Prestige Point per day of retraining since time between
scenarios is undefined.

Before you level up your character and lock it in by playing, you can change ANYTHING except the PFS number. You are not considered to be 2nd level yet, because at the start of the 2nd paragraph we see what happens when you are.

If you were already considered 2nd level, then, by the Guide, you HAVE to start using the Ult. Campaign retrain rules, which is not what was intended.

Silver Crusade

Brian, that post from Mike Brock that you referenced is talking about retraining based on the retraining rules in Ultimate Campaign, when they first became legal for PFS.

That's not the same as the PFS specific 1st level rebuild rules, which essentially let you start over. You can build your character as a new 1st level character, then add the normal level ups for hitting level 2 afterward. That means all legal options at level 1 are legal when rebuilding.

By your interpretation, nobody would be able to change their race when they rebuild, because you can't change your race using the retraining rules in Ultimate Campaign. But the Guide to Organized Play specifically says that you can change anything but your PFS id #.

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Brian Lefebvre wrote:


A character is level 2 when it has acquired 3 xp.

I disagree. A character is *eligible* to be level 2 when it has 3 xp, but it has not actually become level 2 until it has gone through the "leveling up" process, which takes place between sessions. The 1st level rebuild also happens in between sessions, before "leveling up".

"Leveling up" is not locked in (at any level) until the next time that you begin play.

Hard to find an exact quote in the CRB that says that (but then, at a basic level the way the CRB is organized makes *no sense* to me at all) but it is heavily implied in this quote from the "Awarding Experience" section. This was much more explicit in earlier versions of the game.

CRB wrote:
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game characters advance in level by defeating monsters, overcoming challenges, and completing adventures—in so doing, they earn experience points (XP for short). Although you can award experience points as soon as a challenge is overcome, this can quickly disrupt the flow of game play. It's easier to simply award experience points at the end of a game session—that way, if a character earns enough XP to gain a level, he won't disrupt the game while he levels up his character. He can instead take the time between game sessions to do that.

Shadow Lodge

As an example of the difference between the Ultimate Campaign retraining and the PFS first level rebuild rules, I have a paladin that I want to be able to use the Ultimate Mercy feat at level five, meaning I need to take the Greater Mercy feat to qualify, and using it requires ten uses of Lay on Hands. In order to get those ten uses, I need to take Extra Lay on Hands.

Greater Mercy requires the Mercy class feature, which paladins get at level three, so that's the earliest I can take that feat; meanwhile, Extra Lay on Hands obviously requires Lay on Hands, which paladins get at level two. Since my level three feat is taken up by Greater Mercy, and my level five feat is taken up by Ultimate Mercy, that means the only feat slot left is my level one.

Now, using the Ultimate Campaign retraining rules, at level two I could retrain my first level feat into Extra Lay on Hands, because I qualify for it at my current level. Conversely, I couldn't retrain into Fey Foundling, because it requires you to be level one when you take it, so I don't qualify at my current level.

The PFS first level rebuild rules, on the other hand, are a ground-up level-by-level rebuild, so I couldn't use them to create a character that couldn't have existed without retraining/rebuilding. I couldn't use my first level feat to take Extra Lay on Hands because I have to rebuild the character one level at a time, and the character doesn't have Lay on Hands when I have to select that feat. On the other hand, I could certainly choose Fey Foundling, because at that time in the rebuild process I haven't progressed the character past first level.

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