Inspire Greatness+Magical Knack

[EvilPaladin]

Inspire Greatness wrote:

A bard of 9th level or higher can use his performance to inspire greatness in himself or a single willing ally within 30 feet, granting extra fighting capability. For every three levels the bard attains beyond 9th, he can target an additional ally while using this performance (up to a maximum of four targets at 18th level). To inspire greatness, all of the targets must be able to see and hear the bard. A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s), the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target's Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice), a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls, and a +1 competence bonus on Fortitude saves. The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependent. Inspire greatness is a mind-affecting ability and it relies on audible and visual components.

Magical Knack wrote:

You were raised, either wholly or in part, by a magical creature, either after it found you abandoned in the woods or because your parents often left you in the care of a magical minion. This constant exposure to magic has made its mysteries easy for you to understand, even when you turn your mind to other devotions and tasks. Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn't raise your caster level above your current Hit Dice.

Quick Question, does a caster with Inspire Greatness on him and the Magical Knack trait gain a +2CL? Looks like they do, since the +2CL would not raise it above current HD, and IG increases current HD temporarily, but what do others think?

[Rudy2]

RAW, yes. RAI, no.

[Neume]

I thought that was 100% intended. But yes, that works rules as written. That is the caster bonus for the ability.

[Archaeik]

While I've also contemplated why IG is worded the way it is, I'm fairly confident that it does not grant you more benefit than indicated.

That is to say
-the HD are classless/raceless
-the HD do not increase your BAB as we would otherwise expect(you gain a competence bonus instead)
-the HD do not increase saves (although you gain a competence bonus to Fort saves)
-the HD count as "regular" only "for determining the effect of spells that are HD dependent" (Note: it is implied here as "spells that target you", but as written it would also apply to a spell you cast that has an effect based on your HD [independent of any CL])

Now, I do think you have a reasonable RAW argument, and overall, it really doesn't matter too much if they work together since it's a very specific and otherwise suboptimal combination. But, RAI, it likely doesn't work.

Do the HD from IG increase Special Quality DCs that depend on HD(such as poison)?
Can you gain an extra use of Stunning Fist(or similarly scaling abilities)?
That would give more weight to this interpretation.
Currently, it appears the answer to all these things is, "ask your GM".

[Lifat]

Archaeik wrote:

While I've also contemplated why IG is worded the way it is, I'm fairly confident that it does not grant you more benefit than indicated.

That is to say
-the HD are classless/raceless
-the HD do not increase your BAB as we would otherwise expect(you gain a competence bonus instead)
-the HD do not increase saves (although you gain a competence bonus to Fort saves)
-the HD count as "regular" only "for determining the effect of spells that are HD dependent" (Note: it is implied here as "spells that target you", but as written it would also apply to a spell you cast that has an effect based on your HD [independent of any CL])

Now, I do think you have a reasonable RAW argument, and overall, it really doesn't matter too much if they work together since it's a very specific and otherwise suboptimal combination. But, RAI, it likely doesn't work.

Do the HD from IG increase Special Quality DCs that depend on HD(such as poison)?
Can you gain an extra use of Stunning Fist(or similarly scaling abilities)?
That would give more weight to this interpretation.
Currently, it appears the answer to all these things is, "ask your GM".

I think RAW is crystal clear that these two things work together.

I think you make an exceptionally good case for RAI not letting them work together. Personally speaking I do believe this is one case where the rulemakers made an oversight (understandably). I think you are absolutely right about your idea of RAI. I would judge it differently however and I would allow it even though I think it is RAI not to let it work. I simply don't think it is that powerful.

[kinevon]

Note that you are worrying about what is a far-out coprner case, where someone takes a trait, Magical Knack, that is, for 8 levels, of no value to them at all, and doesn't buy anything, or take any feat or other trait, that increases their caster level on its own, for the few times this would apply?

Gah. The times when this would apply would be fairly rare, except, possibly, for the bard themselves.

Magical Knack is mainly taken when it is already going to be used, for, say, a MT build, or an EK build, not somewthing you would likely takle at first level, and not get any benefit from until 9th level. And that for only a limited number of times a day.

The caster is more likely to have already taken feats like Varisian Tattoo, traits like Precocious Spellcaster, and bought the Ioun stone that adds +1 caster level, by this time. And then you run into the rule clarification, maybe from JJ, that Magical Knack is applied last, and cannot be used to raise your CL above your total HD. Meh.

This is so far out into corner case that it isn't worth worrying about, or the extra caster level boost is not worth worrying about for less than three minutes of adventuring time.

[Lifat]

kinevon wrote:

Note that you are worrying about what is a far-out coprner case, where someone takes a trait, Magical Knack, that is, for 8 levels, of no value to them at all, and doesn't buy anything, or take any feat or other trait, that increases their caster level on its own, for the few times this would apply?

Gah. The times when this would apply would be fairly rare, except, possibly, for the bard themselves.

Magical Knack is mainly taken when it is already going to be used, for, say, a MT build, or an EK build, not somewthing you would likely takle at first level, and not get any benefit from until 9th level. And that for only a limited number of times a day.

The caster is more likely to have already taken feats like Varisian Tattoo, traits like Precocious Spellcaster, and bought the Ioun stone that adds +1 caster level, by this time. And then you run into the rule clarification, maybe from JJ, that Magical Knack is applied last, and cannot be used to raise your CL above your total HD. Meh.

This is so far out into corner case that it isn't worth worrying about, or the extra caster level boost is not worth worrying about for less than three minutes of adventuring time.

They could take the feat that grants 2 extra traits, but bottomline is that I agree with you. This is a very unusual corner case and that is partly why I'd allow it to work.

[Cevah]

EvilPaladin wrote:

Inspire Greatness...

Magical Knack...
Quick Question, does a caster with Inspire Greatness on him and the Magical Knack trait gain a +2CL? Looks like they do, since the +2CL would not raise it above current HD, and IG increases current HD temporarily, but what do others think?

If you have Inspire Greatness on you, your Magical Knack lets you get +2 CL. It does not give +2 if you are already gaining benefit from it when multiclassing.

However, if you are a Bard giving yourself Inspire Greatness, you do not get Magical Knack's +2 until after the spell is cast. I.e. if you are Bard 10, you only get 1 target of Inspire Greatness until after you do it. If you do it again while Inspire Greatness is in effect, then you get the extra target.

/cevah