That *is* nice. I'd have a tough time deciding whether I'd want enlarge person or true strike on my spell list, though. Both are very useful.
Knowledge [Memory] is pretty strong if you want to be a knowledge Monkey. Add in Deific Obedience and Breath of Experience and you are gonna have a 10+int modifier on every knowledge for just a skill rank each paired with a handful of re rolls that is quite something.
I'm currently considering this for a wonky Ninja build, however Ninja's have way more skills making this a bit more attractive.
Knowledge [Memory] is pretty strong if you want to be a knowledge Monkey. Add in Deific Obedience and Breath of Experience and you are gonna have a 10+int modifier on every knowledge for just a skill rank each paired with a handful of re rolls that is quite something.
I'm currently considering this for a wonky Ninja build, however Ninja's have way more skills making this a bit more attractive.
Yes; I said as much a few posts ago, BUT I had forgotten about Breadth of Experience, so thanks for pointing that out. Definitely something to note.
I think the action economy of true strike is generally awful; it'd take you two rounds to make a "sure" maneuver. I think it's a good spell, but mostly in the hands of magi, who can use Spell Combat on it.
I'm inclined to agree, mostly. Between Strength and Fist, I think I'd choose Strength.
But I'd probably personally go for the Knowledge [Memory] as mentioned above over either.
I don't know that it's the best build to focus on, no. The only reason I even consider the cleric dip as an option is because of the huge boost to your ki pool you can get with a single level dip and a gong. The domain stuff is just gravy on top of that.
That being said, the presence of Deific Obedience (Irori) alone as an option makes knowledge skills something that need at least be mentioned in the guide as a possibility.
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The action economy of true strike isn't too bad if you use it as an opener before moving to melee range when you wouldn't have a full attack anyway.
The problem with Enlarge person is the one round casting time. That is a much larger hit to action economy in that you have a much larger chance of loosing the spell due to interruption, and it prevents you from moving or taking AoOs that round too.
I'm in the process of updating the guide with a bunch of new stuff. I will add credits when I am finished, so please do not be put out if your name does not appear as of yet for people who gave new input.
The problem with Enlarge person is the one round casting time. That is a much larger hit to action economy in that you have a much larger chance of loosing the spell due to interruption, and it prevents you from moving or taking AoOs that round too.
Enlarge person would be a "right before combat" spell in this case. I honestly don't see either enlarge person, or true strike, as something that would be worth spending your turn casting during combat.
Dang; realized that Breadth of Experience won't work for this build in most cases, because the race requirements are no good.
Yeah, in the guide I basically said "If you are going to be a Gnome ANYWAY, then this is a feat to consider".
Um am I missing something here? Don't you need Racial Heritage Gnome to qualify for Bewildering Koan and wouldn't that in turn allow you to qualify for Breadth of Experience?
You also need to be 100 years old. A half-orc is already dead, a human is 75% likely to be dead, and is venerable if not, and a half-elf is at least "old". Those ability modifiers are not favorable.
There seems to be disagreement about how long lived aasimar are. According to the Advanced Race guide, they are extremely long lived, so this would work for them in combination with Racial Heritage (Gnome). Others say they should not be that long lived for Golarion, so mileage may vary.
I will add a note about Racial Heritage (Gnome) to that one, though.
Also, I'm stupid, and just realized that a Half-Elf qualifies for it (since he counts as an elf) if old enough. Also remembered that in PFS age doesn't matter, as you're below the maximum age.
Dose this analysis of a Swashbuckler Dip seem correct? I haven't seen the class in action at all, so I'm uncertain.
First is that the Hamatulatsu Strike feat will allow your unarmed strike to qualify for the Swashbuckler special abilities.
Second is that you can flurry with a cestus or siangham, both piercing, until you want to switch to Unarmed Strikes and Hamatulatsu.
Third is that Dodging Panache is an amazing way to potentially block full attacks (besides the first attack) made against yourself, and your AC is majorly boosted against that first attack. Alternately, you can use this to close in to enemies. The other uses of “panache” are hum-drum, but this one is the major reason you would consider this dip at all. In any case, I would not do more than one level, unless you’re actually going for a primarily swashbuckler build with Paladin dip.
Also, here's what I said about the Bloodrager
I’m not so huge a fan of this possibility for flavor reasons (Bloodraging Iroran Paladin?), but there are some viable combos. You’ll likely want to take two levels if you go this route, since the second level gets you Uncanny Dodge, which is very good for the Iroran Paladin. The build otherwise gets you rage, fast movement, and a rage bloodline. Make sure to take “fatigue” as one of your mercies for lay on hands.
Two bloodlines in particular deserve a mention. First, the Celestial bloodline is nice. It mitigates the flavor issues somewhat, as you can view it as a “righteous fury” type thing. Treating your attacks as “good” aligned is a nice boon, and the extra 1d6 per attack to evil outsiders is somewhat situational, but very useful.
The Abyssal bloodline has a particular combination that is potentially powerful. If you play as a tiefling, you can use the Claw or Maw alternate racial feature to grab a bite attack. The Abyssal bloodline will then give you two claw attacks. These can be combined with iterative Unarmed Strike attacks (though not Flurry of Blows, so don’t dip Sohei in this case). Further, since you will have three natural attacks, you can take the Multiattack feat, so that your bite/claw/claw is only at a -2, in addition to your full iterative unarmed strike. If you go this way, the Feral Combat Training is worth looking at to apply to your claws. While using your unarmed damage for claws is not much of a boost, the less obvious thing is that the Brawling enhancement you will be applying to your armor will then also benefit your claws.
Thematically, the abyssal bloodline is problematic, but you can imagine the tiefling turning to the discipline of Irori to combat the pernicious influence of his evil blood. You can consider dipping up to four levels for this build, and getting the 4th level enlarge person effect that occurs whenever you rage; this is one of the few ways you can get such an effect without being a humanoid. The main mechanical downside of this build, besides the loss of paladin advancement, is that you cannot combine it with a reach weapon for control, since you’ll need your hands free for claws.
Finally, for Eldritch Heritage, the four bloodlines I highlighted were Arcane, Draconic, Orc & Shadow. Any others that anyone thinks deserve special mention?
I'm pretty ignorant on poisons, since they are generally not very good. If you hit multiple times in a round with that poison, would it actually increase the DC for successive hits, or just make them make more saves?
If I'm reading that correctly, though, they get a saving throw immediately upon being exposed, and if successful, it negates the poison, meaning it will not count for increasing DCs. It does mean that if they fail one save, things will quickly snowball.
And once it takes two saves to cure, then it becomes really brutal, since even if they make the first save, the poison is still around, meaning that the DC starts increasing.
Definitely work a look; not to my taste thematically, but I've added it to the guide, thanks.
Ok, I think I've incorporated all of the input so far, except for stuff on the paladin code, as well as updated the credits section. If I left you out, I promise it wasn't intentional! Just let me know.
I re-oriented the guide a bit, to lessen the implication that the three primary builds I highlight are the only way to use the class effectively. It's become clear over the course of this thread that that view is very limiting.
Next on my agenda are
1) Short note on managing swift actions in the "other build considerations" section.
2) Add a section on the Paladin code, near the end. Maybe an "Appendix"
3) Revamp the equipment section.
As always, input on any aspect of the guide, or this PrC in general, is very welcome.
Obviously the bloodrager is a strong class, but it's not clear to me that the straight bloodrager would be an superior character overall. Defensively, in terms of both AC and saves, for example, he would be lagging by a lot. Without the monk version of Unarmed Strike, he would be unable to combine the claws with additional iterative attacks. He'd lack the ability to flip off fatigue with lay on hands, and many other things besides.
That being said, I haven't thought deeply about the effects of the Bloodrager spell list. It may be the case that the class itself far exceeds the Iroran Paladin; I don't know. I've certainly heard murmurings of its potency. Such is power creep.
When I'm including a dip option in the guide, though, I'm not making the claim that the Iroran Paladin with a dip is superior to the class being dipped (though in many cases, I think that may be true). Rather, I'm just saying "here's a viable direction in which you can take this character". The reason the bloodrager is on there in the first place is because Uncanny Dodge benefits the Iroran Paladin a lot. (EDIT: Actually, I think you are the one that pointed that out to me :) )
Oh, I do want to ask, is your objection to the Abyssal Bloodline over the Celestial one a thematic one (which I can understand) or is there some deeper mechanical difference I'm overlooking?
If there is some reason I'm not seeing that makes the Abyssal bloodline dip a bad build, as opposed to it not being as good as a straight bloodrager, I definitely do want to know.
Equipment is more or less done, barring further input on it. To do list is now:
1) Finish section on Paladin Code/roleplaying; I started it, re-reading Irori's section in Inner Sea Gods to see if there is anything else of note.
2) Reorganize traits section to match the format of the other sections.
3) Add a spell-choice section, probably an appendix, so as to not overly crowd the main document.
Could a halfling under the effects of 'reduce person' (so that he is tiny) attack adjacent squares with a reach weapon? If so, that, in combination with the Risky Striker feat that was pointed out to me earlier, starts to make that build look *much* more interesting.
Alright, I consider the guide to be in a more-or-less "complete" form. I haven't done the spells section, which I may or may not get around to at some point. That's far from critical.
I'll continue to update it with any good suggestions added to this thread, though! Perhaps add more build ideas to it as they come to me; that sort of thing.
If anyone is interested in adding to it in a major way, send me a message, and I'll consider giving you edit access to it. I don't want to open it up to general public editing, though.
Looking at the ACG, for the Flurry build instead of 1 level in Sohei would it be more effective to take 2 levels of Brawler? Still can flurry in armor, gains martial flexibility, and perception as a class skill!
Any word on the update for this guide? Loving the insight into this class!
This may be a dumb question, but... why do you say you need to "pass through" Chevalier to get to Champion of Irori?
I guess a better question is: why not just use the "standard" paladin archetype (keeping smite evil) and the "standard" monk archetype if Champion of Irori is the goal?
Champion of Irori requires Smite Evil, which Chevalier gains. Iroran Paladin trades away Smite Evil.
Yeah, I just realized that, which is why I edited my earlier post. :-)
Yeah, I just realized that, which is why I edited my earlier post. :-)
Ah. I think the big allure is the Cha to AC and cha based Ki. You can get a lot of Cha goodies rather than split Cha/Wis from Monk...
But it requires so much multiclassing, I think you are right that straight Paladin is a bit better (and can focus Cha with some feats and smaller dips)
Any updates for this guide? Loved it and wondered if it gained anything from new releases.
Celestial Obedience?
So, been away from Pathfinder for, oh... 15 months. Anyway, made a few minor changes to the guide. For one, someone correctly pointed out in PM that Temple Sword is not a choice for a Sohei dip, because Sohei lose normal monk proficiencies in favor of martial weapons; I had completely overlooked that Temple Sword is not a martial weapon. Luckily, this has no impact on the martial Sansetsukon, which is what you should be using anyway for this build for flurrying. Changed the guide to note that. The second is confusion over this point:
I may be missing something obvious but for the is for the flurry build, is the only reason for the sohei archtype on the monk level dip the Sohei ability to always act in the surprise round?
thanks!
Because no, the reason for the Sohei dip is that it is the only way to be able to use Flurry of Blows in light armor. The other stuff Sohei gives you is just gravy. I added a link in the guide showing the ruling on that.
Anyway, I need to catch up on these new-fangled double class things, like Swashbuckler, which were playtest when I was first doing this. Any cool synergies people want to point out with the new stuff are welcome; if I include anything you suggest I will credit you in the guide, as I did for several others.
Celestial Obedience?
I did note that as a possible feat in the guide, but are you asking about something in particular?
Looking at the ACG, for the Flurry build instead of 1 level in Sohei would it be more effective to take 2 levels of Brawler? Still can flurry in armor, gains martial flexibility, and perception as a class skill!
You may not even still be around, but I'll answer this anyway.
Looking over the new classes, my thoughts are:
Swashbuckler dip: nah. Seems to have potential on the surface, but there are no decent piercing, flurriable weapons without paying too much for feats.
Brawler dip: no. You need two levels compared to Sohei's one level. Monk has perception as a class skill anyway, and the first level Sohei also grabs a bonus feat, and that nice "always act in the surprise round" icing on the cake. But, the big thing really is the fact that it's only one level. If you're doing mainly a paladin, you don't want to dip more than you have to.
HOWEVER, it does seem on the surface that Iroran Paladin 4 / Brawler X could be something very solid; I have to think about it more.
HOWEVER, it does seem on the surface that Iroran Paladin 4 / Brawler X could be something very solid; I have to think about it more.
Exemplar Brawler might be a good archetype to use with Iroran Paladin due to the CHA synergy.
Hmm... there is Charisma synergy there, yes, though my first thought is that it is splitting the focus of the character too much between melee and support.
That being said, the archetype doesn't seem to give up *too* much that is essential to the build; the most painful thing is probably the loss of the AC. It would also be *really* late in the build that the bardic music would start being effective.
Definitely a possibility, but it doesn't strike me as a fantastic choice just yet; of course, I don't understand the Brawler well yet, either.
Cool guide, good ideas.
Just one remark: Maintaining the bard archaeologist´s archaeologists luck requires a swift action to activate, but is then a free action to maintain.
So after activation it can very well be used with arcane Strike and other abilities which require a swift action.
Thanks.
That's true, but there's just so much Swift Action competition going on. Personal Trial & Ki Pool to start. My rule of thumb is that a character should never have more than three common uses of swift actions at hand, but others may disagree.
(Of course, many GMs, such as myself, allow players to use move or standard actions to take swift actions, in which case it's a very different matter)
While it's ture that Archaeologists luck can be maintained as a free action this isn't gonna happen all too often as it is restricted to CHA+4 uses per day thus you usually pair it with Lingering Performance and use a swift action every 3 rounds of combat.
Something cool called Variant Multiclassing came out while you were away, in Pathfinder Unchained. You trade out your 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level feats for class features from a certain class. It's not PFS legal though. Here is a guide someone wrote that shows some nice combinations.
Neat! Will have to add something on that. Initial thoughts:
Barbarian would be mechanically great due to rage and Uncanny Dodge (due to ability to remove fatigue with lay on hands, which the guide doesn't mention), but thematically horrendous. But, it will be mentioned.
Monk is actually no good, since you're dumping wisdom for the Paladin of Irori. Too MAD. Maybe something to consider if you were going for a dex-build anyway, but that's definitely not optimal.
Probably some good things you could come up with for sorcerer, but I haven't hyper-analyzed them all.
Wizard is nice; definitely some good stuff there.
Oracle might be good, though the 7th level ability is super-lame.
The very sad thing is that the iroran paladin archetype can´t take this PrC at all due to trading away smite evil.