Rudy2 |
@Ascalaphus
Working out some numbers, Paladin (Iroran Paladin) 4 / Monk (Sohei) 1 / Fighter (Unarmed Fighter) 1 provides an excellent base for Sentinel entry. You can pick up Dragon Ferocity as the free style feat from Unarmed Fighter; the damage this guy can dish out is pretty dang impressive, and his defenses, both AC and saves, are significantly better than any other unarmed build, as far as I can tell.
@Imbicatus
Hmm... I suppose that could work. Paladin 4 / Sorcerer 1 / Dragon Disciple, you're thinking? A lot of BAB loss, but the Strength bonuses could make up for it.
The Ki Pool, though, would only make his unarmed strikes count as magic, as far as I can tell. And it would not advance beyond level 4, so it wouldn't get to silver/cold iron/lawful/adamantine, etc., would would be a big pain in terms of DR.
What makes the possibility tempting is the Sorcerer casting you get on top of it. Low-level, but you could get a lot of utility out of that, between mirror image, enlarge person, etc.
@Dekalinder
Yeah, that was my mistake. It was originally a 3rd party thing that was later made official by Advanced Race Guide. I added it yesterday, so thanks.
Appreciate all the input, and always appreciate more. Probably won't do any more major updates to the guide until the weekend, though; work to do, and all that. :)
Ascalaphus |
My a strict RAW reading, Monastic Legacy is useless:
Monastic Legacy wrote:Add half the levels you have in classes other than monk to your monk level to determine your effective monk level for your base unarmed strike damage.So, in say, a Paladin 8 / Monk 1 build, by RAW, you'd be adding half of your non-monk levels (4) to your monk level (1) to determine your effective monk level (5) for your based unarmed strike damage. But Paladin 8 already gives you an effective monk level of 4.
However, a GM might allow you to stack half your paladin level (4) with your effective monk level (also 4), to get an effective monk level of 8 for unarmed strike damage. Effectively, it would be giving you full monk unarmed strike damage progression from your Paladin levels. I'd definitely allow it, as it's not overpowered:
It's giving you +1 average damage at Paladin 4-11, +2.5 damage at Paladin 12-15, +3.5 damage at Paladin 16-19. Good for a later pick, but not overpowered.
I'll add a note about it.
I want to go over this again. It's like a scab that I can't stop myself from picking at :P
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, an Iroran paladin gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. In addition, he gains the unarmed strike monk ability, treating his monk level as half his paladin level (minimum 1) for calculating his unarmed strike damage.
As I read this, the Unarmed Strike Monk Ability (USMA) is a sort of function that takes you monk level and size, and calculates a damage dice value.
Significantly, it doesn't say it stacks with actual levels in monk! Apparently you can have a real monk level and a paladin-monk level at the same time. This looks like a writer's mistake to me. On the other hand, if they do stack, weird stuff happens between the paladin's increasing damage and the sohei's non-increasing damage.
Benefit: Add half the levels you have in classes other than monk to your monk level to determine your effective monk level for your base unarmed strike damage. This feat does not make levels in classes other than monk count toward any other monk class features.
This feat is adding stuff to your Monk Level for purposes of USMA, and the paladin does have a monk level, even without actual levels in the Monk class. If you somehow got Still Mind without monk levels, you could take this feat and it'd probably apply.
Rudy2 |
In what I like to call my "reasonable GM" mode (though players may not always agree :) ), I would let the effective monk level granted by Iroran Paladin to stack with actual monk level as granted by monk levels in order to determine unarmed damage. However, since the Sohei, as you point out, does not increase unarmed damage, those levels should not stack, I would think, leaving you with only half of your Paladin levels if you combine with Sohei.
On the one hand, I agree with your interpretation that Monastic Legacy *could* work, but on the other hand, it seems kind of "cheating" to take half of your Paladin levels (since they aren't "monk" levels) and add half of them to the effective monk level (which is itself 1/2 of your Paladin level) to get unarmed strike damage. All in all, I have no idea what the RAI would be here, and little idea even what the RAW is.
Were a player to come to me wanting to do this, the way I would run it is this: Take half of the levels you have beyond your "effective" monk level for unarmed damage, and add them to that effective monk level. This to me seems the most fair.
For example, normally a Monk (vanilla) 4 / Fighter 10 would have a monk level of 9 for the purposes of unarmed damage if they took the Monastic Legacy feat. They are taking half of the levels they have that aren't granting them unarmed strike damage (5 being half of 10) and adding them to the levels that do.
Similarly, if a Player had a Paladin (Iroran Paladin) 6 / Monk (Sohei) 8, they have an effective monk level of 3 (1/2 of their Paladin level) for the purposes of unarmed damage. I would allow them to take half of the remainder of their character level, 5 (5 being half of 11) and add it to the 3 in order to get an effective level of 8 for unarmed monk damage.
That's not by any means RAW, but it does come close to what the original balance of the feat is supposed to accomplish, I think.
Ascalaphus |
Well, I suppose given how hard it is to pin down the RAW on this, it's off the table for PFS. In a home game though, it's certainly worth asking the GM how he reads it. Maybe you'll get lucky.
Me, I'd say that levels in "real monk" don't count for Monastic Legacy, but that levels in other classes (like Iroran Paladin, or Ninja with the Unarmed Combat Master talent) are counted.
So the level 6 paladin/level 8 sohei would end up with the unarmed damage of a 6th level monk (6/2 + 6/2 = 6); the Sohei levels are "dead".
With the Ninja (who just uses Monk level = Ninja level -4), it's possible to use Monastic Legacy to eventually go faster than a normal monk. I don't think that's all that special nowadays; we have oracles using Favored Class Bonus to advance animal companions faster than a druid. And while the Boon Companion was probably written for multiclassing druids, in practice it's mostly a Ranger feat. Also, there's a Monk's Robe item that actually gives you a bonus on monk level for determining damage, allowing you to deal damage as a monk 5 levels higher IIRC. So getting dice ahead of character level isn't new. </digression>
Flaming Duck |
Forgive me for the non-sequitur, but I have a really stupid question about the Iroran Paladin.
Do you need to worship Irori to use the Archetype? I suppose, because it is called the IRORAN Paladin, you'd assume so...but as there is no requirement listed anywhere I can find it's either implicit or absent. After all, some archetypes have racial requirements, but AFAIK only prestige classes have had religious pre-reqs, not archetypes. Could you worship Torag and take the archetype?
Like I said, a really stupid question, but it's been bugging me.
Addendum - In the introductory text "[paraphrasing] Irori offers no universal code - each paladin creates his own code" (pg 39, Inner Sea Combat). So there's that.
Rudy2 |
I think the writer of the archetype sort of assumed it would go without saying from the name and description. No, there is no formal requirement listed, but I would imagine it would be a rare GM indeed who would let you get away with worshiping another deity :)
Your attempt to combine the "Defensive Strategist" trait with the Iroran Paladin, though, is a noble endeavor, and I fault you not for it =D
Ascalaphus |
I've also been thinking. What if we took a step back from the Sohei and pick up a trait to gain UMD as a class skill. Then we get a wand of Mage Armor.
We become more MAD on Wisdom, but we save some money on armor. AC probably goes down a little bit, but we get access to all the other Monk archetypes.
What other archetypes have cool stuff to add? I'm having a surprisingly hard time finding any.
Rudy2 |
At high levels you can do some cool stuff. For example, the Ki Mystic's ability to re-roll stuff at level 5 synergizes very well with the 11th level aura the Iroran Paladin gets... but that's a 16th level minimum combo, there.
But, no, I don't see much reason to dip into anything but Sohei for the monk. Even if you do get UMD as a class skill, it's still going to be a long time before you can use the wands reliably. And the majority of the archetypes rely on Wisdom as a primary stat.
Wanderer [human only] would be alright if you wanted to go into Living Monolith. It gives you the endurance feat, and some nice spell like abilities. Nothing amazing.
Monk of the Four Winds would likewise be ok if your DM allowed the paladin levels to stack with monk levels to determine elemental fist damage.
Hmmm... I just noticed that, by RAW, there's nothing stopping you from using a Maneuver Master's Flurry of Maneuvers while wearing armor. It replaces Flurry of Blows, and says nothing about working like flurry of blows. That's probably not RAI, though. That's a strong possibility, though, if you can do flurry of maneuvers in armor.
Rudy2 |
You can't combine Brawler with either of its two "base" classes, Fighter or Monk. At least, that's what the playtest thing I downloaded indicates.
And, looking at it, I don't see a good reason to dip into Brawler over Sohei, to be honest.
Of the ACG classes, the one that looks most promising for *this* build is Swashbuckler, since you can easily make unarmed strikes do piercing damage with a feat, thus qualifying for the Swashbuckler's various abilities. I'll have to think about it more, though.
Rudy2 |
Removed, eh? That's a shame; I thought that was an excellent balancing mechanism. I'll probably keep it in my home games, anyway.
2 levels of monk gets two feats, even if they aren't floating, the amazing Sohei ability to always act in the surprise round, a +3 to will saves versus the Brawler's zero. Sohei doesn't lose any BAB on a full attack, and the 1 BAB on a single attack isn't going to make much difference.
Ascalaphus |
I'm waiting for the official ACG before I use any of it; I just don't like being forced to rebuild if I use playtest stuff now. But then it'll certainly be worth looking into.
If Crane Wing hadn't been nerfed, MoMS would've been worthy I suppose. But, well.
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Are we certain Power Attack is necessary? Lately I've been playing scenarios not using it at all because the AC of monsters has been on the high side. Against my paladin. :(
Rudy2 |
I've been thinking about that. I would keep it for sure for any build that stayed with a two-hander (Sohei Polearm Paladin, Variant Reach), but I'm not sure it's "necessary". I think if your build can afford to do that and get Furious Focus it's a huge boon for when you can't do a full attack. It's better than Vital Strike for that purpose, at least, and often helpful on a full attack as well.
But no, I wouldn't call it absolutely necessary, especially for the Flurry Paladin build who will end up using fists.
Black Feather |
Something a bit cheesy but clever nonetheless...if you're going for an unarmed build, anyway.
Dervish Dance (Combat)
You have learned to turn your speed into power, even with a heavier blade.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
All the feat says is "melee attack and damage rolls". It does NOT say "melee attack and damage rolls with a scimitar"
It's one way to drop strength entirely and still do some relevant damage.
I also like to do builds that play tricks on people, and flowing monk has this wonderful ability to trip anything that attacks you.
Haven't played flowing monk + dervish dance build yet but it's something I may want to try one of these days.
_____
Also, I always wondered when I saw that archetype: is the Cha you add to your Dex bonus to AC limited by armor in the same way as your Dex already is? From the description of it, it seems it may be, but if so it makes the archetype much weaker.
lemeres |
Something a bit cheesy but clever nonetheless...if you're going for an unarmed build, anyway.
Quote:Dervish Dance (Combat)
You have learned to turn your speed into power, even with a heavier blade.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
All the feat says is "melee attack and damage rolls". It does NOT say "melee attack and damage rolls with a scimitar"
It's one way to drop strength entirely and still do some relevant damage.
I also like to do builds that play tricks on people, and flowing monk has this wonderful ability to trip anything that attacks you.
Haven't played flowing monk + dervish dance build yet but it's something I may want to try one of these days.
_____Also, I always wondered when I saw that archetype: is the Cha you add to your Dex bonus to AC limited by armor in the same way as your Dex already is? From the description of it, it seems it may be, but if so it makes the archetype much weaker.
Eh, while I agree that it would make problems for a full DEX build, I don't think it is too weak. A mithral chainshirt (or celestial armor, since it is 'standard') would end up getting about the same AC as full plate when you bump up against max DEX (without the speed or ACP problems). The general idea is that armors would allow you to get an AC bonus of about 8-10 (give or take for a few armors) through a combo of DEX and armor.
Plus, I always question how effective dervish dance actually is. You are one handing a weapon and only getting a stat modifier and power attack x1. And it doesn't work out too well with unarmed strikes, since that means that you have to buy both an enchanted weapon and maybe Bodywraps of Mighty strikes.
Unless I've missed some of this conversation....
EvilPaladin |
Black Feather wrote:Something a bit cheesy but clever nonetheless...if you're going for an unarmed build, anyway.
Quote:Dervish Dance (Combat)
You have learned to turn your speed into power, even with a heavier blade.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
All the feat says is "melee attack and damage rolls". It does NOT say "melee attack and damage rolls with a scimitar"
It's one way to drop strength entirely and still do some relevant damage.
I also like to do builds that play tricks on people, and flowing monk has this wonderful ability to trip anything that attacks you.
Haven't played flowing monk + dervish dance build yet but it's something I may want to try one of these days.
_____Also, I always wondered when I saw that archetype: is the Cha you add to your Dex bonus to AC limited by armor in the same way as your Dex already is? From the description of it, it seems it may be, but if so it makes the archetype much weaker.
Eh, I worry about doing a full dex build though. Since CHA is added to dex, it hits up against max dex on your armor, doesn't it?
Plus, I always question how effective dervish dance actually is. You are one handing a weapon and only getting a stat modifier and power attack x1. And it doesn't work out too well with TWF, since you can't hold anything in the other hand. Even if you have unarmed strikes to go on the other hand, that means that you have to buy both an enchanted weapon and maybe Bodywraps of Mighty strikes.
Unless...
I believe that the point here is you hold and threaten with the scimitar, which is one of the interpretations of "Wielding" a weapon, and then you skip it and just use Unarmed Strikes and get Dex-to-Damage.
lemeres |
I believe that the point here is you hold and threaten with the scimitar, which is one of the interpretations of "Wielding" a weapon, and then you skip it and just use Unarmed Strikes and get Dex-to-Damage.
....so you are saying that if I loan you money so you can go to lawschool, you will easily be able to pay me back with your very successful career.....
Excuse me, I have to go take a rest to take care of my head ache.
EDIT-ok, seriously, there is major argument to be had for even allow dex to damage with unarmed strikes with that feat. Now you are removing the scimitar from a feat that is ENTIRELY CENTERED AROUND SCIMITARS. I mean, it shows up about as many times as periods in the feat.
Rudy2 |
All the feat says is "melee attack and damage rolls". It does NOT say "melee attack and damage rolls with a scimitar"
It's one way to drop strength entirely and still do some relevant damage.
I also like to do builds that play tricks on people, and flowing monk has this wonderful ability to trip anything that attacks you.
Haven't played flowing monk + dervish dance build yet but it's something I may want to try one of these days.
_____Also, I always wondered when I saw that archetype: is the Cha you add to your Dex bonus to AC limited by armor in the same way as your Dex already is? From the description of it, it seems it may be, but if so it makes the archetype much weaker.
While you might get away with the scimitar trick for something like PFS, where GMs are restrained from applying common sense, I think the RAI there is so 100% clear that it's not something I would consider a valid strategy. Clever to spot it, though.
As for the archetype, I've been assuming this entire time that the wording means that your charisma bonus and dexterity bonus are added together, and the resulting number acts as your dexterity bonus (for armor purposes). This is bad because, for example, it does make the armor limitation a real thing, but good because, for example, it means the charisma bonus is being added to your CMD as well. The guide acknowledges this.
However, it's not such a big deal as you think; it simply means you don't need to bother with dexterity, beyond perhaps a 12. It makes the archetype sub-optimal for archers and other dex-based builds (which has a lot to do with why I didn't include them), since you won't be able to simultaneously benefit from a high dex and a high charisma to armor, but it doesn't make a difference for a melee build. You're going to get Mithral Kikko, with a max dex of +6, and then Celestial armor, with a max dex of +8.
EvilPaladin |
Black Feather wrote:All the feat says is "melee attack and damage rolls". It does NOT say "melee attack and damage rolls with a scimitar"
It's one way to drop strength entirely and still do some relevant damage.
I also like to do builds that play tricks on people, and flowing monk has this wonderful ability to trip anything that attacks you.
Haven't played flowing monk + dervish dance build yet but it's something I may want to try one of these days.
_____Also, I always wondered when I saw that archetype: is the Cha you add to your Dex bonus to AC limited by armor in the same way as your Dex already is? From the description of it, it seems it may be, but if so it makes the archetype much weaker.
While you might get away with the scimitar trick for something like PFS, where GMs are restrained from applying common sense, I think the RAI there is so 100% clear that it's not something I would consider a valid strategy. Clever to spot it, though.
As for the archetype, I've been assuming this entire time that the wording means that your charisma bonus and dexterity bonus are added together, and the resulting number acts as your dexterity bonus (for armor purposes). This is bad because, for example, it does make the armor limitation a real thing, but good because, for example, it means the charisma bonus is being added to your CMD as well. The guide acknowledges this.
However, it's not such a big deal as you think; it simply means you don't need to bother with dexterity, beyond perhaps a 12. It makes the archetype sub-optimal for archers and other dex-based builds (which has a lot to do with why I didn't include them), since you won't be able to simultaneously benefit from a high dex and a high charisma to armor, but it doesn't make a difference for a melee build. You're going to get Mithral Kikko, with a max dex of +6, and then Celestial armor, with a max dex of +8.
Actually, GM's are allowed to apply some common sense. Its detailed in the Guide to Organized Play's "Table Variation" section. It covers things with varying interpretations like this.
Black Feather |
It's hardly ever done because scimitar is a lot better than unarmed strike in almost every situation...but it is legal by RAW.
The 18-20 crit range means you get to multiply most of your damage sources by 2 and that's a LOT better than a bigger damage die. Especially considering how much you have to put in comparably to buff one vs. the other (though Paizo has fixed the unarmed disparity a bit).
Black Feather |
If you've got enough build points, you can potentially stack Dex, Wis, Int, and now Cha to AC...
Of course, there aren't very many ways to do a viable build that way.
_____
The thing about RAW or RAI is that intent doesn't always come into it...some of the most famous and memorable inventions, games, ways of doing things, etc were unintended byproducts, accidents, and uses the original designer never "meant".
_____
There are a few ways to use this arch in a ranged build but standard paladin seems like a stronger choice to me.
JimmySC |
This is a really interesting archetype and an excellent guide, thank you for writing it! I am highly intrigued by the idea of a Halfling quasi-monk who's ridiculously defensive and decent offensively as well thanks to a few of the tricks there.
I did have one thing to question about - you state in the guide that the Confident Defense bonus is added to CMD as well as AC. I don't actually see any language anywhere to indicate that's the case however; the definition of CMD doesn't state that you add your Dex Bonus to AC to your CMD, it just states that your CMD is equal to 10+Str Mod+Dex Mod+Size Mod, and that Circumstance, Deflection, Dodge, Insight, Luck, Morale, Profane, and Sacred bonuses to AC apply to CMD. Since Confident Defense adds your Charisma on to your Dexterity explicitly for Armor Class and isn't considered one of those bonuses... am I missing something that would allow it to translate over?
Ascalaphus |
Jimmy: that's an interesting question. I think it's meant to transfer over, because basically everything that aids Touch AC (except size) is added to CMD as well. Likewise, anything at all that reduces your AC reduces CMD as well.
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Yesterday I saw a monk/paladin in action, quite impressive; extreme AC but super-low Strength, because he was going for an Agile amulet. I'm wondering if the Agile route is something for the Iroran as well. I personally don't really like it though, it feels a bit cheesy. Also, it's quite annoying to play all the levels before you can afford it.
Another though I had would be to dip 2 levels of Celestial Bloodrager, to get Good fists that do +1d6 against evil outsiders (as well as probably DR penetration!), Bloodrage, barbarian fast movement, and most importantly, Uncanny Dodge.
Rudy2 |
The problem with doing a dex/agile build with this archetype is that if you have a high dex and a high charisma, you're not going to hit armor caps very quickly.
Jimmy: That's an excellent point. I do think it's intended, but you're correct in that there may not be clear RAW support for it. I'll have to think about that, and possibly amend the guide.
Rudy2 |
Another though I had would be to dip 2 levels of Celestial Bloodrager, to get Good fists that do +1d6 against evil outsiders (as well as probably DR penetration!), Bloodrage, barbarian fast movement, and most importantly, Uncanny Dodge.
This is a good thought; at some point I'm going to have to look more closely at the new classes. I really don't know much about them right now.
Imbicatus |
The problem with doing a dex/agile build with this archetype is that if you have a high dex and a high charisma, you're going to hit armor caps very quickly.
You can somewhat alleviate that (and save a lot of money) by using darkleaf leather for a max dex of 10, or a haramaki if your combined bonus is above that.
If course, you may still have a better AC at the cap of Celestial armor unless your Dex and CHA are both very high.
Ascalaphus |
Ascalaphus wrote:Another though I had would be to dip 2 levels of Celestial Bloodrager, to get Good fists that do +1d6 against evil outsiders (as well as probably DR penetration!), Bloodrage, barbarian fast movement, and most importantly, Uncanny Dodge.This is a good thought; at some point I'm going to have to look more closely at the new classes. I really don't know much about them right now.
I was looking around for a source for Uncanny Dodge, since we rely so much on Dex to AC. Rogue takes too many levels to get it. Shadowdancer gets it, but the feat prerequisites are pretty painful, particularly Mobility (since we're replacing the need for high Dex with Cha). Barbarians get it, but they can't really be Lawful.
So imagine my surprise when I saw that the Bloodrager is allowed to rage even while Lawful. Although with stuff like the Celestial bloodline, it makes sense that that's possible.
So I'm rather hoping it'll still be the same when the definitive version hits the shelves.
---
By the by, I actually started playing a character like this yesterday. I took Improved Grapple and got a good initiative, and it was definitely nice; getting the drop on opponents and starting grapples in the surprise round is very nice.
Rudy2 |
Rudy2 wrote:You can somewhat alleviate that (and save a lot of money) by using darkleaf leather for a max dex of 10, or a haramaki if your combined bonus is above that.The problem with doing a dex/agile build with this archetype is that if you have a high dex and a high charisma, you're going to hit armor caps very quickly.
Not a bad point, but I'm still not convinced that it's a good path. Yeah, you save the money, but if you go to leather (+2) instead of Kikko (+5) your AC is not going to be any higher, practically speaking.
Rudy2 |
I was looking around for a source for Uncanny Dodge, since we rely so much on Dex to AC. Rogue takes too many levels to get it. Shadowdancer gets it, but the feat prerequisites are pretty painful, particularly Mobility (since we're replacing the need for high Dex with Cha). Barbarians get it, but they can't really be Lawful.
So imagine my surprise when I saw that the Bloodrager is allowed to rage even while Lawful. Although with stuff like the Celestial bloodline, it makes sense that that's possible.
So I'm rather hoping it'll still be the same when the definitive version hits the shelves.
---
By the by, I actually started playing a character like this yesterday. I took Improved Grapple and got a good initiative, and it was definitely nice; getting the drop on opponents and starting grapples in the surprise round is very nice.
... you're probably right, looking at it, that the bloodrager is the best dip by which to get Uncanny Dodge. Sorcerer spell list for item use, bloodline power, uncanny dodge, rage... But, man do I hate the flavor of it. I find myself hoping that they do add an alignment restriction in its final form, just because I don't want Paladins of Irori going into bloodrages. Gah.
Mobility is not that painful, I think, if you want to go for Shadowdancer. In most builds you're going to want to start with 12 dex anyway, and you can add a +2 enhancement to dex easily enough via Ioun Stone. Having 14 dex is nice, especially when you'll have a polearm and combat reflexes.
I started playing the "Rock" build I gave as an example at the end of the guide in PFS; it's a lot of fun so far, but I'm only level 2, so, we'll see where it goes.
Ascalaphus |
Qualifying for a feat with an Ioun Stone... eww. Just eww.
I don't really have a problem with the bloodrage. I think of it more as righteous fury. But then, I'm playing an Angelkin Scion of Humanity, with the idea that he's actually a human who's become a "little bit more" due to Iroran training for Perfection.
Most bloodlines are unsuitable, but the Celestial one is a perfect fit.
---
I specifically wanted Grapple because it's a RP-useful fighting style. It makes it much easier to capture/arrest bad guys instead of just pounding them into a fine paste that can't answer questions.
Rudy2 |
If you want to forgo flurry entirely, the Abyssal bloodline has promise for bloodrager.
A tiefling Iroran Paladin can grab a bite attack as a racial feature, pick up two claw attacks from abyssal bloodrager, and combine all of those (at a -5) with his iterative unarmed attacks (since he won't need his hands free). Not sure I like the feel of biting people as a Paladin, but it seems to have potential.
Rudy2 |
Can you use unarmed strike damage with that feat (link for reference)? Are you getting that from the "effects that augment an unarmed strike" clause?
Even if you could, your unarmed strike damage won't exceed 1d8 until quite late levels, so I'm not sure it would be worth a feat (two counting the weapon focus). Something to consider, though.
LoneKnave |
1d8 seems high level, but you can do stuff like use brawler enchant (cause you can actually wear armor), get enlarged, possibly stonefist gloves, etc.
Also, you could go absolute cheese and get boar-kin for even more natural attacks. Problem is, now they are all different so you'd need like 6 extra feats... probably not worth it.
Rudy2 |
Oh, excellent point about the brawler enchantment. Since you'd want that anyway for the build, that makes the WF(Claws) > Feral Combat Training(Claws) feats much more tempting; almost a must-have, actually.
I've never quite understood how gloves were supposed to work with claw attacks. I guess they're fingerless gloves?
Rudy2 |
Should have thought of this earlier, but a two level Bard (Archaeologist) dip gets Uncanny Dodge, Bardic Knowledge +1, Clever Explorer (at level 2, just +1 Perception & Disable Device, and fast Disable Device use), as well as the Archaeologist's Luck ability, which is still amazing with just a dip if you have Fate's Favored trait. Five cantrips, 3 1st level spells known, and the bard spell list for items. Synergies well with the high charisma.
Rudy2 |
Or, if you don't want to lose BAB, Ranger (Wild Stalker) also gets Uncanny dodge at second, and some other goodies. Add the trapper archetype too if you want trapfinding instead of the ranger spell list for items.