i don't really use official golarion as published, i use a more customized variation with a higher level of magic and features pulled from anime and action cinema.
But...the 'as published' is what was being discussed...
n/m.
Not seeing it your way here.just as humans use cattle on farms for sustenance required to survive, vampires use free humans for sustenance. at least vampires don't cage their "meal tickets" the way humans do. humans keep cattle encaged behind small fences on a farm to be raised for nothing more than to die and feed their human masters, vampires don't do that to humans at all.
I'm actually a little bit concerned that, in your personal view, humans equate to nothing more than cattle. ;)
Humans are intellectual superior beings to cows. Vampires are not intellectually superior beings compared to humans, but are equally intellectual due to the fact that they are human undead. If a vampire that once was human maintains its human intelligence, it should realize without doubt that killing other humans is an inherently evil act that one should not do. That it chooses to do so, treating another human being as nothing more than a (relatively) mindless animal, indicates the inherently evil nature of the vampire.
Especially since, if blood is all it needs, it could simply take the blood from the cow.
Just sayin'.
i don't really use official golarion as published, i use a more customized variation with a higher level of magic and features pulled from anime and action cinema.
And that's fine. In your setting, you run how things work. You are the master of your world and the rules of nature. I'm just pointing out the flaw in the argument comparing undead to predators in the base setting. The disconnect is largely through the different perceptions of undeath in different media.
Also, this topic is about Golarion. Hence the title. And the forum it is in.
Not seeing it your way here.just as humans use cattle on farms for sustenance required to survive, vampires use free humans for sustenance. at least vampires don't cage their "meal tickets" the way humans do. humans keep cattle encaged behind small fences on a farm to be raised for nothing more than to die and feed their human masters, vampires don't do that to humans at all.I'm actually a little bit concerned that, in your personal view, humans equate to nothing more than cattle. ;)
Humans are intellectual superior beings to cows. Vampires are not intellectually superior beings compared to humans, but are equally intellectual due to the fact that they are human undead. If a vampire that once was human maintains its human intelligence, it should realize without doubt that killing other humans is an inherently evil act that one should not do. That it chooses to do so, treating another human being as nothing more than a (relatively) mindless animal, indicates the inherently evil nature of the vampire.
Especially since, if blood is all it needs, it could simply take the blood from the cow.
Just sayin'.
That is a good point to bring up. In the setting and rules, there is nothing stopping a vampire from hunting animals, or even having an ally donate blood so it doesn't feed on the innocents. Granted, I'd imagine it'd be like getting bad weed or coke cut with baking soda, but it'd be something a good aligned vampire could do in the setting and rules.
In my game, the victims have to be sapient creatures and animal blood/donated blood only resets the hunger DC penalty by half. It doesn't totally get rid of it.
i don't really use official golarion as published, i use a more customized variation with a higher level of magic and features pulled from anime and action cinema.Sounds like a pretty cool version.
the mechanics are so altered it doesn't resemble core pathfinder anymore. part of it, is i allow martial classes to Gestalt a ToB class of their choosing for the purpose of manuevers.
Actually, being turned into an undead against your will absolutely does impact your destination after death, in that it prevents your soul from moving on TO that destination. That's the primary reason why, in Pathfinder, undead are mostly evil.
they are evil because they are mad?
most normal undead aren't undead by choice usually.
Liches are by choice,
vampires CAN be either… some undead BECAME that way BECAUSE they were evil mortals. but if I'm a necromancer and I just start creating undead out of available bodies, whats the deal with that? I just forced unwilling souls to stay lost in the nether regions as I used them for my own play toys.
if I die, they are free willed…then what? are they evil just because they are trapped and mad?
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If you die, the undead are still there. At least until someone can free them of their curse. That's kind of what you are doing when you force them into undead forms. Cursing them with unlife, trapping the spirit, and denying them an afterlife corrupts it in the Physical World. You're essentially doing evil things to people. That's the deal with that ;)
People doing evil things to innocents is tragic. But that's kind of the point of evil. For example, a leader knows their town is in danger and as a last ditch effort, makes a deal with a devil to protect the city. Lo and behold, the city is saved. So now when the leader dies, the soul belongs to the devil for all eternity to be tortured and turned into the building block of Hell. Is that fair or just? The leader made this decision to save their town, so they did good. But even then, they signed their soul away and while it's unfair that they are being tortured, that's the point of evil. Just like daemons steal souls and harvest them for their own purposes. Those might be goodly souls, but at the moment, they are powering a terrible engine of destruction against their will. Because daemons are evil. Or a legion of vampires forced into their condition by an evil elder vampire. Sure they didn't ask to be vampire spawn, but the elder vampire needed troops. Because vampires are evil.
That's the point of evil. They do evil things to good people and corrupt and break them. Evil is unfair and cruel because it simply is. And the point of good is to reverse that and save said innocents from their fate. Or, prevent it from happening in the first place.
Considering by raw that undead can be turned back to their living form via resurrection and true resurrection, I imagine a trapped soul that is freed from undeath isn't doomed to an afterlife in the evil planes.
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vampires are tigers? Really? Ok then if that works for you:) it is pretty funny that a thread that started about realistic borders has turned into Vampires, free Zombie laborers, outsider higher learning institutions and tigers:) talk about your six degrees of seperation:)vampires aren't the same species as tigers, but a Vampire's need for the amino acids found in blood is no different from a Tiger's need for meat, a required sustenance. in other words, just as tigers are apex predators, so are vampires. humans only see them as evil because they are lower than the vampires and most undead on the food chain. much like how most cattle would realistically percieve a human as evil due to being lower than a human on the food chain. but humans actually treat their livestock worse than vampires treat theirs.
Amino acids? You got to be kidding? Is this written in the rules anywhere?
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Undead... hunger... human... cattle...
Welcome to Geb, we have all your unliving needs covered!
Amino acids? You got to be kidding? Is this written in the rules anywhere?vampires are tigers? Really? Ok then if that works for you:) it is pretty funny that a thread that started about realistic borders has turned into Vampires, free Zombie laborers, outsider higher learning institutions and tigers:) talk about your six degrees of seperation:)vampires aren't the same species as tigers, but a Vampire's need for the amino acids found in blood is no different from a Tiger's need for meat, a required sustenance. in other words, just as tigers are apex predators, so are vampires. humans only see them as evil because they are lower than the vampires and most undead on the food chain. much like how most cattle would realistically percieve a human as evil due to being lower than a human on the food chain. but humans actually treat their livestock worse than vampires treat theirs.
i based the Amino Acids thing off a certain real world disorder that happens to be a form of Porphyria often associated with vampiric anime characters.
You could get all the amino acids in blood from a steak. there's only 22 of the things.
You could get all the amino acids in blood from a steak. there's only 22 of the things.
only works reliably if you are a rich vampire. thing is, there are impoverished and even middle class vampires as well. the latter two can't afford to eat enough steak to get the required acids every day. which ends up leading to being persecuted for cattle theft, or persecuted for drinking blood, either of which will get you in trouble, cattle theft gets you in worse trouble depending on the setting.
Course, that is fine in your setting. But even in the base assumption for the game, according to the bestiar, undead do not need to eat, drink, or sleep. With the possible exception of the dhampir, which I think is a monstrous humanoid. So, thats why in Golarion and the base setting, taking a creature's blood/life energy/flesh without needing the sustenance and against their will is evil. They don't have Porphyri and don't spread vampirism via pathogen. They, like all undead, are the result of magic.
And honestly, at that point, if you are making the reason for being a vampire biological, I'd just go ahead and change them to monstrous humanoids instead of undead.
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vampire? apex predator?
Tiger? really.
There's an S-ton of humans that have practically hunted just about everything they can nearly to extinction and the only reason why there are any animals left is because people made rules and enforce those rules on NOT killing all of them.
Last I checked, fantasy worlds weren't populated by vampires and adventurers nearly extinct.
I think you have the APEX thing backwards?
tigers were hunted nearly to extinction before modern hunting rifles were even produced.
not because tigers are a good source of food…. because no one had invented call of duty yet, and this is what humans were doing for fun (killing tigers)
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Sci fi was already part of the world.
Elves are supposed be some crashed race from the next world (forgot name) all the monsters from the barrier peaks module are actually scattered throughout the 4 bestiaries.
Clockwork monsters are also in various modules.
So to me it's nothing new. Hell they added Cthulhu and Kaiju so as far as I care they are tossing everything at us and letting us pick what part to play with. I really don't mind having the option.
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vampire? apex predator?
Tiger? really.There's an S-ton of humans that have practically hunted just about everything they can nearly to extinction and the only reason why there are any animals left is because people made rules and enforce those rules on NOT killing all of them.
They probably mean from the vampire's perspective, and in the sense where they are no longer human (or elf or whatever), and where tigers hunt other animals and (and rarely humans) for food, and humans hunt other animals for food, vampires have gone up the chain and hunt things at a higher bracket. However, unlike all those other things, there are two big difference. Vampires do not need to eat/drink etc. . . So if you locked a vampire away for 5 years straight, they would not starve to death or die of thirst. It's not required for them to survive in the physical sense, though they do have a constant need to. The other big difference is that vampires do not need to kill in order to eat or survive, outside of losing control of themselves.
Another thing is it isn't that they are THE apex predator, as much as one of many, something that's also reinforced with many vampires, being immortal, beginning to plot and scheme in order to feed and keep their minds active. As far as the Amino Acid thing. I personally hate the kind of modern vampire concept of trying to make it scientifically explainable. It's way, way to overdone, and honestly, kind of boring. <It's kind of cool to have individuals think they can figure it out, (and not because it isn't), but the idea of just having vampires (and other supernatural and cursed creatures) be scientifically explained is dumb.
vampire? apex predator?
Tiger? really.There's an S-ton of humans that have practically hunted just about everything they can nearly to extinction and the only reason why there are any animals left is because people made rules and enforce those rules on NOT killing all of them.
They probably mean from the vampire's perspective, and in the sense where they are no longer human (or elf or whatever), and where tigers hunt other animals and (and rarely humans) for food, and humans hunt other animals for food, vampires have gone up the chain and hunt things at a higher bracket. However, unlike all those other things, there are two big difference. Vampires do not need to eat/drink etc. . . So if you locked a vampire away for 5 years straight, they would not starve to death or die of thirst. It's not required for them to survive in the physical sense, though they do have a constant need to. The other big difference is that vampires do not need to kill in order to eat or survive, outside of losing control of themselves.
** spoiler omitted **
Another thing is it isn't that they are THE apex predator, as much as one of many, something that's also reinforced with many vampires, being immortal, beginning to plot and scheme in order to feed and keep their minds active. As far as the Amino Acid thing. I personally hate the kind of modern vampire concept of trying to make it scientifically explainable. It's way, way to overdone, and honestly, kind of boring. <It's kind of cool to have individuals think they can figure it out, (and not because it isn't), but the idea of just having vampires (and other supernatural and cursed creatures) be scientifically explained is dumb.
I couldn't agree more with your last paragraph.
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Another thing is it isn't that they are THE apex predator, as much as one of many, something that's also reinforced with many vampires, being immortal, beginning to plot and scheme in order to feed and keep their minds active. As far as the Amino Acid thing. I personally hate the kind of modern vampire concept of trying to make it scientifically explainable. It's way, way to overdone, and honestly, kind of boring. <It's kind of cool to have individuals think they can figure it out, (and not because it isn't), but the idea of just having vampires (and other supernatural and cursed creatures) be scientifically explained is dumb.
Reminds me of midichlorians from episode 1. I dont care for these types of explainations either.
Not least because that would be possibly the least efficient method of getting amino acids you could come up with, most of the volume of blood is water. A protein shake would so much more efficient, not to mention you wouldn't need to hunt the thing, just stop by your local late night GNC.
Reminds me of midichlorians from episode 1. I dont care for these types of explainations either.
What are midichlorians? I can't say I have any idea what you are talking about.
*sharpens Gamorrean axes*
As for vampires and amino acids, yaaaaa dumb dumb even White Wolf didn't make that distinction, although technically a vampire could just eat rare steaks, in White Wolf he'd have to eat like an entire cow to get one blood point. Actually said that in the 2nd ed book in fact. An entire cow was worth one blood point.
Not least because that would be possibly the least efficient method of getting amino acids you could come up with, most of the volume of blood is water. A protein shake would so much more efficient, not to mention you wouldn't need to hunt the thing, just stop by your local late night GNC.
Not to dogpile Auren, but that's kind of the issue with scientifically explaining magic. You start getting players nitpicking on things like the inefficiency of drinking blood. And if there is one thing us nerds are known for, it's being really nitpicky when it is unnecessary. :)
Not least because that would be possibly the least efficient method of getting amino acids you could come up with, most of the volume of blood is water. A protein shake would so much more efficient, not to mention you wouldn't need to hunt the thing, just stop by your local late night GNC.Not to dogpile Auren, but that's kind of the issue with scientifically explaining magic. You start getting players nitpicking on things like the inefficiency of drinking blood. And if there is one thing us nerds are known for, it's being really nitpicky when it is unnecessary. :)
i guess i shouldn't be using technobabble to justify things.
Honestly, it's for the best. Just saying "vampires need blood for sustenance" is fine enough. The more detail you get into something, the more people will try and poke holes into it.
Honestly, it's for the best. Just saying "vampires need blood for sustenance" is fine enough. The more detail you get into something, the more people will try and poke holes into it.
in my games, vampires need blood for sustenance, just like zombies need meat for sustenance. it is an actual need based on a variety of old vampire novels that got anime adaptions.
Honestly, it's for the best. Just saying "vampires need blood for sustenance" is fine enough. The more detail you get into something, the more people will try and poke holes into it.
Agreed, go ask around regular people into why they eat. Sure, scientifically speaking it's because you need the nutrients only available through the consumption of select organic matter; but most people will answer "Because I was hungry and felt better after eating something tasty."
Vampire hunger and feel much better afterwards, and their tastiest select organic matter happens to be the blood of a still living humanoid. Like animals, they don't even need to understand why it happens. It just does.
i guess i shouldn't be using technobabble to justify things.
One reason to technobabble it is if you want to expand on the idea behind it.
If vampires or humans did research to discover that it's specific amino acids that are needed, then that means that someone is interested doing something with that knowledge. Either by discovering the perfect recipe for artificial blood; or using gene therapy on animals to reproduce the same blood types; or finding a way for humans to produce more of those amino acids so not as much blood is required; or produce some concentrated "super" blood that's more powerful than regular blood; etc.
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I like the idea of photo-sensitive blood-sucking viral-maddened freaks (retaining the humanoid or animal type they started with) running around all 'vampire plague,' but I'd like it better if that was a very distinct thing from supernatural vampires.
(Or perhaps a sub-strain, the result of normal people being bitten by supernatural vampires and surviving, or ingesting vampire blood, or even a curse that supernatural vampires can use to keep 'vampire hunters' busy killing off the rabble while they observe from the shadows and determine their methods, and find their weaknesses, etc.)
My Row campaign include a goblin who thinks he's a gnome riding in a human-sized suit of clockwork armor.
And it's fun as a result.
How does Numeria and Iron Gods "ruin everything"? Technology has been an aspect of AD&D since early on. Not only did we have such things as Barrier Peaks, but we also had the armor go from plate mail to include field plate and full plate, the inclusion of firearms, and golems which could easily be considered robots when you get down to it.
For that matter, how is these technological elements any different than the inclusion of psionics into the game which multiple people have done and which has been a part of the game since AD&D with that 1% chance of having psionic abilities?
Seriously, this gnashing of teeth over Iron Gods makes no sense as you can easily call any technologies in here magic and could easily reskin it to be magic in nature. Androids? They're a variation of clone. Laser pistols? Wands of magic missile. Giant robots? Giant golems.
If you stretch your imagination, think of what you can do with this.
Every thought about this?
Many people say D&D also had technology...
THIS isn't D&D, many people playing Pathfinder because they want to escape from D&D and don't like it.
When we didn't like Tech in Pathfinder, we also didn't like it in D&D. Duh.
There are lots of reasons for people to choose Pathfinder over DnD. Given that the major DnD settings didn't really heavily incorporate technology, I seriously doubt that played any role at all.
Ok, you don't like Tech in your Pathfinder or your D&D, it is very easy to just not use something you don't like.
My Row campaign include a goblin who thinks he's a gnome riding in a human-sized suit of clockwork armor.
And it's fun as a result.
How does Numeria and Iron Gods "ruin everything"? Technology has been an aspect of AD&D since early on. Not only did we have such things as Barrier Peaks, but we also had the armor go from plate mail to include field plate and full plate, the inclusion of firearms, and golems which could easily be considered robots when you get down to it.
For that matter, how is these technological elements any different than the inclusion of psionics into the game which multiple people have done and which has been a part of the game since AD&D with that 1% chance of having psionic abilities?
Seriously, this gnashing of teeth over Iron Gods makes no sense as you can easily call any technologies in here magic and could easily reskin it to be magic in nature. Androids? They're a variation of clone. Laser pistols? Wands of magic missile. Giant robots? Giant golems.
If you stretch your imagination, think of what you can do with this.
Every thought about this?
Many people say D&D also had technology...
THIS isn't D&D, many people playing Pathfinder because they want to escape from D&D and don't like it.
When we didn't like Tech in Pathfinder, we also didn't like it in D&D. Duh.
it would seem The Evil Queen has forgotten The Most Important Rule.
Evil Queen, it's a lot easier to not use a rule they do release than use a rule they don't release. I'd rather they release things for those of us that do want it that just avoid anything different for the safe of not offending some people.
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Honestly, it's best to ignore Evil Queen. He does this for attention and rarely has anything intelligent to add to the discussion when it comes to this. Best to move along and continue the conversation without him.
Again, he's looking for attention. The guy is a certified narcissist and proud of it. All he wants to do is insult what people like and rile them up. Best to ignore him and move along with the conversation.
And again Odraude is being ignorant of what being a narcissist is about and that it isn't a choise but a mind-condition, and narcissism has nothing about me not liking tech mixed with fantasy. And i'm not proud of anything, you just being a cruel ......
You are looking for attention and favorite count, not me.
+ All I wanted to say was, that people don't care that D&D also used technology, as we didn't like it in D&D as well, so that comparison isn't legit.
And again Odraude is being ignorant of what being a narcissist is about and that it isn't a choise but a mind-condition, and narcissism has nothing about me not liking tech mixed with fantasy. And i'm not proud of anything, you just being a cruel ......
You are looking for attention and favorite count, not me.
+ All I wanted to say was, that people don't care that D&D also used technology, as we didn't like it in D&D as well, so that comparison isn't legit.
Then don't. Allow it. In. Your. Game. Or, as a player, simply don't join groups that use it. This is so trivial a solution it's absolutely mind boggling how people can't get this.
Might want to look elsewhere if you want to a campaign setting that only supports standard fare medieval fantasy. Or you could, you know, modify Golarion yourself as GM.
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And again Odraude is being ignorant of what being a narcissist is about and that it isn't a choise but a mind-condition, and narcissism has nothing about me not liking tech mixed with fantasy. And i'm not proud of anything, you just being a cruel ......
You are looking for attention and favorite count, not me.
+ All I wanted to say was, that people don't care that D&D also used technology, as we didn't like it in D&D as well, so that comparison isn't legit.
I was ok with tech in D&D and am quiet looking forward to Iron Gods. Every bodies play style is different. It is ok to not like tech in your games but there are people who do.
Pathfinder is a off shoot of D&D and so it is not that much of a stretch to have Supertech in it.
I'm quite looking forward to the tech guide (it got me to subscribe to the campaign setting). Ever since I read the ISWG, I've been looking forward to Numeria being detailed.
As far as I can tell, just from reading the ISWG, Golarion has had varying levels of techs and themes and genre possibilities since its inception. It isn't becoming genre inclusive, it has always been!!
Also, some people like some stuff, other people don't like other stuff. Stuff is put in to cater to the needs of people who may like it, if you don't like that stuff, don't use it.
On an ENTIRELY unrelated note, for some reason, it honestly just popped into my head, but the flag option for posts could really do with a troll option listed. One can troll without being abusive. The default options at the moment don't seem to cover every forum eventuality....
And again Odraude is being ignorant of what being a narcissist is about and that it isn't a choise but a mind-condition, and narcissism has nothing about me not liking tech mixed with fantasy. And i'm not proud of anything, you just being a cruel ......
You are looking for attention and favorite count, not me.
+ All I wanted to say was, that people don't care that D&D also used technology, as we didn't like it in D&D as well, so that comparison isn't legit.
Then don't. Allow it. In. Your. Game. Or, as a player, simply don't join groups that use it. This is so trivial a solution it's absolutely mind boggling how people can't get this.
Might want to look elsewhere if you want to a campaign setting that only supports standard fare medieval fantasy. Or you could, you know, modify Golarion yourself as GM.
Because anything that is done that he doesn't like is deemed worthless and shouldn't be allowed in what he considers his product.
Trust me, the guy is an attention seeker that blames his narcissism for acting like an a*#~$@$.
vampire? apex predator?
Tiger? really.There's an S-ton of humans that have practically hunted just about everything they can nearly to extinction and the only reason why there are any animals left is because people made rules and enforce those rules on NOT killing all of them.
They probably mean from the vampire's perspective, and in the sense where they are no longer human (or elf or whatever), and where tigers hunt other animals and (and rarely humans) for food, and humans hunt other animals for food, vampires have gone up the chain and hunt things at a higher bracket. However, unlike all those other things, there are two big difference. Vampires do not need to eat/drink etc. . . So if you locked a vampire away for 5 years straight, they would not starve to death or die of thirst. It's not required for them to survive in the physical sense, though they do have a constant need to. The other big difference is that vampires do not need to kill in order to eat or survive, outside of losing control of themselves.
** spoiler omitted **
Another thing is it isn't that they are THE apex predator, as much as one of many, something that's also reinforced with many vampires, being immortal, beginning to plot and scheme in order to feed and keep their minds active. As far as the Amino Acid thing. I personally hate the kind of modern vampire concept of trying to make it scientifically explainable. It's way, way to overdone, and honestly, kind of boring. <It's kind of cool to have individuals think they can figure it out, (and not because it isn't), but the idea of just having vampires (and other supernatural and cursed creatures) be scientifically explained is dumb.
If vampires don't need to eat, why then are they always depicted as having a NEED to EAT?
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It's rather like the difference between Hunger & Appetite. Vampires & Ghouls have a drive to Consume. It is part of the nature of their varied curse.
Another part is that no matter how much they consume, they will never feel sated.
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Vampires do become more unstable, and weaker when they don't feed. They have a hard time passing for mortal, and begin loosing their resistances and fast healing. So while they don't gain sustenance, they DO gain advantages from feeding.
Ghouls can become more powerful, and pass for human/whatever they were beforehand if they don't eat flesh ever.
Sooo... these two are good candidates for non-evil undead.
Esp with the vampire gaining some level of protection against the sort they feed from. So the idea of a vampire who feeds exclusively off of villains and ruffians, and maybe is even employed by the city as an executioner would be an interesting idea.
Vampires do become more unstable, and weaker when they don't feed. They have a hard time passing for mortal, and begin loosing their resistances and fast healing. So while they don't gain sustenance, they DO gain advantages from feeding.
Ghouls can become more powerful, and pass for human/whatever they were beforehand if they don't eat flesh ever.
Sooo... these two are good candidates for non-evil undead.
Esp with the vampire gaining some level of protection against the sort they feed from. So the idea of a vampire who feeds exclusively off of villains and ruffians, and maybe is even employed by the city as an executioner would be an interesting idea.
Ghouls and Vampires can resist, but it's extraordinarily difficult to them, especially when you consider that they are effectively immortal, and the longer the live the greater the chance they have of slipping up.
I would imagine that many vampire has tried the "feed off of ruffians" routine. But that can be a slippery slope, and allowing your hunger to subconsciously decide who lives or dies is a pretty good way to look for any excuse to kill.