Mystic Theurge - why the hype?

[hgsolo]

Woden Finklestein wrote:

Requirements

Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.

My understanding is that Spell Like Abilities do not count as Spells and cannot be used to meet the prerequisite for the prestige class.

It has been clarified that they do. Check the faq.

[Woden Finklestein]

Sweeet...

[AndIMustMask]

ikr? it makes mystic theurge and eldritch knight ACTUALLY WORTH CONSIDERING.

[LazarX]

AndIMustMask wrote:

ikr? it makes mystic theurge and eldritch knight ACTUALLY WORTH CONSIDERING.

I still don't understand of the point of taking these PrC's without the spell casting classes to back them up.

[ParagonDireRaccoon]

LazarX wrote:

AndIMustMask wrote:

ikr? it makes mystic theurge and eldritch knight ACTUALLY WORTH CONSIDERING.

I still don't understand of the point of taking these PrC's without the spell casting classes to back them up.

A mystic theurge zookeeper build (summoner or necromancer) could be fun, summon or raise a small army and then buff them and your party. Eldritch knight can start at level 3 (human martial 1/ scryer (diviner subschool) 1/eldritch knight 10, then you can go dragon disciple 8 for a few more spell levels and fun DD abilities.

[strayshift]

Possibly in the minority here but I think the Eldritch Knight isn't so bad as is, there are two unavoidable levels of non-spell progression regardless. Also there are even (admittedly slight) benefits from delaying progression until you've got 6 levels of Wizard as opposed to 5 (better Saves, Base Attack and spell casting). Accelerated progression gives you more survivability in terms of hit-points earlier perhaps but ultimately not that much.

Mystic Theurge accelerated progression is much more of a difference, it allows a more 'standard' type of caster rather than the buffer/undead specialist it encourages under it's original pre-requisites. Personally I actually dislike that FAQ as it does appeal to the worst, most spurious min/maxing in my opinion. To sacrifice one level of casting and to (possibly) be a bit more MAD seems too good a deal in my view for the (lack of) requirements needed to gain a significant amount of additional spell power.

[andreww]

LazarX wrote:

AndIMustMask wrote:

ikr? it makes mystic theurge and eldritch knight ACTUALLY WORTH CONSIDERING.

I still don't understand of the point of taking these PrC's without the spell casting classes to back them up.

I don't see anyone suggesting doing so. I took AndItMustMask's comment to mean that the PrC's were now potentially viable options individualy, not that they should be somehow mixed together.

Personally I think the best early entry is probably the Garuda Blooded Aasimar Cleric 2/Empyreal Sorcerer 1. The See Invisibility SLA deals with the arcane side while Trickery or the Fate Inquisition can give you the divine requirement. All of your casting works off Wisdom so you can also take some of the best offensive arcane magic.

[AndIMustMask]

i meant individually they're now somewhat usable, not together--together'd be weird.

[Anzyr]

strayshift wrote:

Possibly in the minority here but I think the Eldritch Knight isn't so bad as is, there are two unavoidable levels of non-spell progression regardless. Also there are even (admittedly slight) benefits from delaying progression until you've got 6 levels of Wizard as opposed to 5 (better Saves, Base Attack and spell casting). Accelerated progression gives you more survivability in terms of hit-points earlier perhaps but ultimately not that much.

Mystic Theurge accelerated progression is much more of a difference, it allows a more 'standard' type of caster rather than the buffer/undead specialist it encourages under it's original pre-requisites. Personally I actually dislike that FAQ as it does appeal to the worst, most spurious min/maxing in my opinion. To sacrifice one level of casting and to (possibly) be a bit more MAD seems too good a deal in my view for the (lack of) requirements needed to gain a significant amount of additional spell power.

Any min/maxer worth their license (yes we have licenses, totally /blatant lies) will tell you that even with early entry Mystic Theurge is only "ok". The only PRCs really worth considering in Pathfinder are Evangelist and Exalted. And even then, 1/19 and straight 20 builds are better in a lot of cases. Well... unless you can tack on Eclectic/Esotetic Training... then yes Mystic Theurge is pretty crazy.

[andreww]

Anzyr wrote:

Any min/maxer worth their license (yes we have licenses, totally /blatant lies) will tell you that even with early entry Mystic Theurge is only "ok". The only PRCs really worth considering in Pathfinder are Evangelist and Exalted. And even then, 1/19 and straight 20 builds are better in a lot of cases. Well... unless you can tack on Eclectic/Esotetic Training... then yes Mystic Theurge is pretty crazy.

I have been looking at the bloatmage recently and it has potential for the wizard. You lose 2 bonus feats but gain up to 3d12 extra levels of spells per day. Not a terrible trade off.

With early entry you also get to steal sorcerer bloodline powers at level 11.

[Anzyr]

andreww wrote:

Anzyr wrote:

Any min/maxer worth their license (yes we have licenses, totally /blatant lies) will tell you that even with early entry Mystic Theurge is only "ok". The only PRCs really worth considering in Pathfinder are Evangelist and Exalted. And even then, 1/19 and straight 20 builds are better in a lot of cases. Well... unless you can tack on Eclectic/Esotetic Training... then yes Mystic Theurge is pretty crazy.

I have been looking at the bloatmage recently and it has potential for the wizard. You lose 2 bonus feats but gain up to 3d12 extra levels of spells per day. Not a terrible trade off.

With early entry you also get to steal sorcerer bloodline powers at level 11.

Huh, that is really impressive. A 3d12 + a guaranteed 10 extra spell levels per day is pretty impressive. Especially with early entry, which will get you those guaranteed blood points very quickly. And of course bloodline tricks.