Ok, so we all know that Divine magic is fueled by
-Deities
-Powerful Outsiders
-High Tier Mythic characters
What fuels arcane magic?
-Is it drawn through from another plane?
-Is is cosmic forces being tapped into by the user?
-Is it literally the life energy or whatever of the user?
-Are they "psychic powers"?
-Is it a manifestation of the "soul"?
-Why do characters have limited castings of arcane spells (Lore wise)?
According to Ultimate Magic anyone can become a Wizard. According to core rule book Sorcerers magic is someway related to their bloodline.
I do realize that magic should have an unexplainable quality, but I think that a power source would be at least basic knowledge that a player should know.
If anyone knows where Arcane magic comes from please help me out and tell me the appropriate book to read.
Well, from the etymology, 'arcane' means 'old'. In the history of Golarion, the aboleths were already old by the time humanoids sprung up and any deities gave magic. Aboleths know a bit of magic. Ergo, the same kind of old magic they have is what fuels modern arcane spellcasting.
Maybe.
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I think in your examples option 3 is pretty much it, but for all classes.
My personal take on this has always been along the lines of - at it's core, divine and arcane are pretty much the same thing: they are, in essence, manipulating the atoms of the universe to their own will.
For divining you are weakening the atoms of an area so that you can peer through.
For summonings you are breaking down a creature at an atomic level and rebuilding them.
Necromancy is weakening the positive traits of atoms so that the negative traits can become dominant. etc etc
The power that all these classes draw from is just, there. It's all around us, ready to be tapped into. It's in the air we breath, the ground we walk. The mechanics of spellcraft are pretty much the same across all classes: clairvoyance, for instance, is the same for a priest as it is for an arcane caster. So, really, the main difference here is in how these classes tap this power.
And that's a very individual thing I think. A druid may stand beneath a water-laden leaf for fifteen minutes, waiting patiently for a dewdrop to fall and hit her tongue. She is tapping into nature here, meditating on the day ahead.
A sorcerer will appeal to ancestral powers, drawing through them as a conduit.
A priest, with perhaps no innate understanding of the molecular structure of the world, relies on faith and their god to grant them access. Because, of course, the gods do understand the universe.
And the wizard, through study, simply uses formulas to access these gifts.
That's my take on it anyway. I'm sure there's as many different takes as there are different cheeses in Peckhams ^^
"...basic knowledge that a player should know."
Not necessarily. Not at all. Consider that in the real world, we don't even know where gravity comes from. There's an episode of the cable series Through the Wormhole that covered this pretty well, but the gist is this: science recognizes four fundamental interactions between particles (strong force, weak force, electromagnetism and gravitation.) Three of the four are associated with specific types of particles, but so far no one has ever found a "graviton" particle. If there are no gravitons, then what produces the gravition force? (It might be a pair of gluons, but that too is unproven.)
Anyway, my clumsy effort at making a point is that it's not unreasonable to assume a fundamental force, the existence of which is clear, which can be manipulated to varying degrees by almost anyone, but for which no one can identify a source.
If you want to identify a source of magic for your game, I'm not saying you shouldn't try -- I've always hated the notion that you shouldn't try to nail down rules for internal consistency in a game, but should just handwave it saying "dude, it's magic!" -- I'm just saying the information doesn't have to be widely available within the game world for the game world to make sense.
We call it the Essence. It's sort of a eternal well of raw arcane energy that either you are born with an innate connection to or you learn the methods of tapping it and shaping it.
Really simple and not well defined, I've always just left it at that.
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Or you could say that Arcane and Divine casters get their magic from the same source. The difference is that Divine casters get access through the gods, while Arcane casters get access through their knowledge. Or blood. Or Eidolon. Or music.
So it would be one source, two methods. (Or three.)
Okay, so I don't really like the idea that magic comes from an Arcane or Divine source. (And sometimes Psionic.) I also don't like class-based systems that much. I prefer games that allow the players to make up their own source.
In my setting, arcane magic is "the power of the world", that some learn to harness. Divine magic is "the power of the gods", and psionics is "the power of man". They're called the Three Forces of Universe.
Creative Director
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Divine magic comes from faith and belief.
Arcane magic comes from science and study.
Both of them come from the same raw magical energy in the end though... it's called primal magic in Golarion, so it might as well be called the same in the core rules.
Thanks James =} I had forgotten the part about primal magic.
As long as there are no midi-chlorians, I'll be content with "Arcane Magic <> Science!"
Overall, I always saw magic in fantasy as a primal force where divine magic is personally shaped by the gods for their followers while arcane magic is shaped by individual mortals through their own hands.
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One option;
When the universe was created, the creator(s) first had to create the tools, to create the universe. These words of creation, spoken thusly, created mountains. A garbled echoed fragment of them, pronounced badly by mortal creatures with barely-adequate mouthparts and tiny little voices, can call up a wall of stone. A feeble attempt at pronouncing the syllables that could be translated as 'let there be light' and brought suns into being across a universal scale, can instead produce light, or even daylight.
Divine spellcasters learn these words and fragments of the old tools of creation (and destruction...) from their divine patrons, as is all right and natural and as god(s) intended. Arcane spellcasters have stolen these secrets, using research into things that mortals have no place researching to catch the inaudible reverberations of the words of creation in every place, person and thing, echoing around within them, ever since those words were first uttered. Or perhaps they are just, in their own telling of it, picking up and mastering the discarded tools of creation, learning to speak stumbling child-like utterances of that first and most pure of languages, becoming like unto gods, without having to bend knee to the current crop of gods, few of whom even pretend to be in any way connected to the actual creator(s).
But that's just a theory. Whether divine or arcane, the vast majority of spellcasters don't necessarily know (or care) where magical power comes from, any more than warriors understand how to forge steel or rogues bother to learn how to mine, cut and polish their own gemstones.
Divine magic comes from faith and belief.
Arcane magic comes from science and study.
Both of them come from the same raw magical energy in the end though... it's called primal magic in Golarion, so it might as well be called the same in the core rules.
Ahhh ok. So Divine casters tap into Primal Magic through divine assistance. Arcane casters tap into primal magic through study or innate connection.
The type of spells I'm guessing depends on how Primal Magic is tapped into (thus a difference in spell list between Druids and Clerics despite both being divine)
I was having a debate over whether or not Psionics made sense in a world with magic and understanding the source of Arcane Magic was a key point.
Thanks a ton JJ!
I've used Set's version in the past.
Divine classes plug directly into magic power, while arcane classes have revealed ancient secrets or re-discovered powerful syllables via purely empirical means. An arcane spell's verbal component could sound like gibberish, but is really a prayer to a dead god in a forgotten language.
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For my basic setting I tied all magic to the planes. Divine magic came from the outer planes and thus was always aligned in some way, while Arcane magic mostly came from the inner planes. The really weird Arcane spells came from the Far Realms.
Divine Spellcasters were either people who's moral code was so intune with a specific outer plane they could tap it directly or they needed someone (IE: a God) to feed them power. That energy fills the Divine Caster's Aura, tainting it towards the Alignment of the Plane he draws his power from. Once a Divine Caster runs out of spells their Aura class feature shuts down.
Arcane Casters pulled eneergy from the Inner Planes, distilled it into threads and wove them into spells. Then they either knot them around their Arcane Focus or let their familiar hold onto them. Arcane Spells were ranked 1 to 9 depending on how many threads were needed to create the spell. Fireball for example needed 3 threads of power drawn from the Plane of Fire
Well, from the etymology, 'arcane' means 'old'.
Arcane means "secret" not "old", as in secret knowledge. In Tarot the 2 parts of the deck are the major and minor arcana with arcana hereto meaning secret knowledge.
It depends upon your setting, but some rely on a network of ley lines that actually carry the arcane spark that drives magic. Other settings might suggest portals to very magical realms such as the gateways to the fey realm might be the source of magic. In Game of Thrones, the fact that dragons have been brought back to the world is the impetus of magic regaining a foothold in the existence and power of magic.
Well, from the etymology, 'arcane' means 'old'.Arcane means "secret" not "old", as in secret knowledge. In Tarot the 2 parts of the deck are the major and minor arcana with arcana hereto meaning secret knowledge.
It depends upon your setting, but some rely on a network of ley lines that actually carry the arcane spark that drives magic. Other settings might suggest portals to very magical realms such as the gateways to the fey realm might be the source of magic. In Game of Thrones, the fact that dragons have been brought back to the world is the impetus of magic regaining a foothold in the existence and power of magic.
Oh, I was under the wrong impression for a while now. Shame too, because I liked the idea that arcane magic came before the divine variety and forced deities to tip the scales for a balance of power.
Ok, so we all know that Divine magic is fueled by
-Deities
-Powerful Outsiders
-High Tier Mythic characters
Not necessarily.
Under core rules clerics and druids do not need a connection to a god, outsider, or mythic characters to access divine magic.
In Golarion clerics need to worship a god but druids and other divine casters do not.
I'm partial to seeing divine power as not originating from specific individual beings but being a type of power that would exist even if deities did not.
Oh, I was under the wrong impression for a while now. Shame too, because I liked the idea that arcane magic came before the divine variety and forced deities to tip the scales for a balance of power.
Going by historical context, I'd say divine came first, as worship of spirits, deities and natural forces is probably the first instances of sources of power beyond human capability that was recognized. Think of the cave paintings, lithic henge structures, burial rites throughout the world as the first meaningful representations of power and the afterlife as the providence of the gods. The afterlife is a much more fundamental concern for thinking peoples which has to do with divinity, thus obviously divine came first among esoteric concepts.
Arcane, being secret knowledge learned as being personal power not derived from the gods, and possibly the study of proto-sciences of physics and chemistry. The entire concept gained from personal scholarship can be reasonably assumed to have arrived long after the understanding of such knowledge being the providence of the gods. Divine magic came first, arcane magic most likely millenia later. Arcane probably arrived at the rise of towns and civilizations, which long followed primitive religious beliefs. It only makes sense that divine precedes arcane.
I did like the 2e Birthright campaign setting take on elves (sidhelien) being fey beings and elder beings to humanity that did not worship gods at all, but considered arcane magic the source of their identity - thus in that world, if elves preceded man's existence, then in that case arcane preceeded divine. If your specific setting has unique origins of magical sources, then perhaps arcane can precede divine - a perfectly fine concept.
However, if using Earth history/prehistorical anthropological sources as the context to define magic in your fantasy world, divine definitely precedes arcane as the source of magic and probably by thousands of years.
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Oh, I was under the wrong impression for a while now. Shame too, because I liked the idea that arcane magic came before the divine variety and forced deities to tip the scales for a balance of power.
Depends on the setting.
In the Forgotten Realms, where arcane magic explicitly comes from / is at the whim of an ancient magic goddess, arcane magic is really kind of divine magic by another name anyway.
But in Golarion, where the current god of magic is a relative newcomer and not one of the 'old gods' like Pharasma, and where the Aboleth were sowing the seeds of arcane magic among themselves and their Azlanti flunkies before the gods were an active presence, then arcane magic does kind of predate divine magic. (Indeed, it was the spread of divine magic and the Azlanti turning to divine patrons that motivated the Aboleth into attempting to destroy the species! In Golarion, arcane magic, among the Aboleth, predates gods-worship and humanity and divine magic entirely.)
According to Ultimate Magic anyone can become a Wizard.NPC guide begs to differ. Despite having a good Int score there's one rogue who's been eternally frustrated in her quest to become a wizard.
So I do think that there is an undefined "Gift" that's required to cast any form of magic.
That "gift" could just be a measure of different forms of intelligence, though. Like how there are plenty of very intelligent people who just can't handle math in real life, for instance.
Thinking in a way required to use (book-style) arcane magic might be more rare than high intelligence generally, but it might not be a magical gift, in and of itself.
According to Ultimate Magic anyone can become a Wizard.NPC guide begs to differ. Despite having a good Int score there's one rogue who's been eternally frustrated in her quest to become a wizard.
So I do think that there is an undefined "Gift" that's required to cast any form of magic. That's the way I run it anyway.... not just any yokel or any genius can become a mage. The Gift is the limiting factor on the spellcaster population in any campaign world I make.
In ultimate magic it actually references average people learning magic through study. Not saying they'd get many spells or anything, but according to that book it's seemingly pretty easy to become a low level wizard.
Of course we're talking about two different books, so of course their would be differences. Also understanding magic like a wizard probably requires a similar mental skill set to understanding abstract mathematical concepts, something that's not directly linked to intelligence.
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According to Ultimate Magic anyone can become a Wizard.NPC guide begs to differ. Despite having a good Int score there's one rogue who's been eternally frustrated in her quest to become a wizard.
So I do think that there is an undefined "Gift" that's required to cast any form of magic. That's the way I run it anyway.... not just any yokel or any genius can become a mage. The Gift is the limiting factor on the spellcaster population in any campaign world I make.
She needs to kill moar orks. When she'll killed enough, she'll instantly become Rogue X / Wizurd 1.
The answer to more power is ALWAYS:
KILL MOAR ORKS!!!
magic spells are arcane. divine spells are prayers. you are confusing the term magic and the term spell. divine is not magic.
Scroll up amd read the Dino's post.
In ultimate magic it actually references average people learning magic through study. Not saying they'd get many spells or anything, but according to that book it's seemingly pretty easy to become a low level wizard.
This is like learning any skill, say like learning to play the piano.
Anyone can slam the keys and make individual notes, some may even know simple tunes by rote, but it takes a lot of practice to read and play music and not make it sound like a mess.
Arcane magic is just one of those "sciences" where you may know how to use it (like using computers), but the art of creating magic (like computer programming) is a whole different level of complexity that just doesn't interest as many people. And no matter how fabulous the results, if it can be simply reproduced by a magic item created by someone else, the average commoner will go with the item and concentrate on something else.
And as to the origin of arcane magic, if it parallels discoveries in real life, it would be from observation of naturally occurring magical phenomenas (outsiders, glowing gemstones, ley lines, etc.) and trying to control/channel the energy for their own use (like feng shui channels the flow of chi energy), and eventually some people with an affinity for it will reproduce it. Pretty much like electricity was a mysterious force in the previous centuries and enough scientists managed to make it mundane and make innovative uses of it beyond imagination. From lightning and static electricity to modern computers and large hadron colliders.
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Technically, as spell like abilities are considered arcane, fey are of the First World, and the First World preceded this one, arcane magic did exist before divine. At least for mortals.
===Aelryinth
Divine magic comes from faith and belief.
Arcane magic comes from science and study.
Both of them come from the same raw magical energy in the end though... it's called primal magic in Golarion, so it might as well be called the same in the core rules.
Ahhh ok. So Divine casters tap into Primal Magic through divine assistance. Arcane casters tap into primal magic through study or innate connection.
The type of spells I'm guessing depends on how Primal Magic is tapped into (thus a difference in spell list between Druids and Clerics despite both being divine)
I was having a debate over whether or not Psionics made sense in a world with magic and understanding the source of Arcane Magic was a key point.
Thanks a ton JJ!
I would just call it mind-magic, and those able to unlock their minds/brains can tap into it. Every creature has "mind-magic"(psionic) potential, but not everyone can access it.
I dunno, because Psionics are fluffed as being fueled by oneself, not as being a channel for an external fuel.
I dunno, because Psionics are fluffed as being fueled by oneself, not as being a channel for an external fuel.
That is what I mean when I say you have to be able to unlock your mind to access it it. Basically it(my flavor) is based on the theory that we only use about 10% of our brains, and in fantasy lands those who go beyond that 10% get access to psionics.
edit: I just said "mind-magic" because the name psionics makes some people start grabbing pitchforks.
*Looks proudly at Ultimate Psionics Hardcover on display at the center of my desk shelf*
I'm pretty ok with the term psionics, though yeah some people don't enjoy such a scary term lol. After all Psionics has been around since second edition and is therefore new and scary :)
Actually, psionics debuted in First Edition. It just didn't get its own book, being integrated into the PHB and DMG. You can even find entries for psionic abilities as a standard part of the stat block for 1E monsters.
Actually, psionics showed up in Eldritch Wizardry, the third supplement for the white box. And I'm not going to guarantee that's the first place they showed up, either.
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The big question is, why is the witch, with a patron, an arcane caster and not a divine one?
Because the witch makes bargains in full consciousness and will, not in worshipful humility.
Also, one can imagine a witch's patron as being a source of knowledge, not power.
For some reason, I want to use a food analogy.
A spontaneous caster knows a few recipes by heart.
A spellbook user keeps a cookbook.
A witch doesn't have a cookbook, but has a master chef on speed-dial. (Accessing a patron via a familiar.)
A divine caster orders prepackaged meals. They don't have to shop for raw ingredients. They don't suffer spell failure from armor because microwaving a Healthy Choice meal, while still technically 'cooking/casting' is a lot simpler and harder to screw up than making food from scratch.
Divine spontaneous casters (oracles and inquisitors) I guess would be something like a vending machine: many copies of a few things.
Not all witch patrons (I'd dare to say most, in fact) can grant divine spells. Baba Yaga, for instance, doesn't sell a line of microwavable spells, but she'll teach you to do it yourself. Teach a man to fish, an all that.
Even when you look at a being that can be both a divine source and a witch patron, Abraxus or Norgorber, for instance, the witch is attending cooking classes, while the cleric buys frozen dinners because he's such a huge fan.
For some reason, I want to use a food analogy.
It occurred to me that an alternative interpretation, that is somewhat more generous to clerics, is that instead of prepackaged meals, a deity (or other divine power source, like nature itself for druids) is more like a sous-chef.