This is hatred on a national level, peace cannot happen because one or both sides will still be humiliated and impoverished as titans roll over them to "enforce peace".
Moving around wont help you much, knowing the situation from the point of view of my cluster of tight knit nations (scandinavia) "we've" just about had it with politically sensitive immigrants from eastern europe and certain countries from the middle east in particular. The fear of immigrants is so strong were I live that the prospect of a small Mosque (the first of its kind where I live) has sparked a national dispute and a move to hold a nationwide vote. A nationwide vote to decide if we allow a Mosque to be built, thats kinda dramatic.
This whole thing will take centauries to ever blow over, which is lamentable to those who prefer not to partake of the violence.
My hat off to anyone who lives in the suffering region's who does not submit to hateful behaviour.
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How to end the conflict? Duke it out till both sides are mostly dead, the survivors will be incapable of telling friend from foe in all the blood. Thats when eyes open and people realise what they did was wrong, thats how nations bond into permament alliances.
Just look at Norway-Denmark-Sweeden, Britain-Spain-France-Germany or USA-Britain.
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Youths of Gaza manifesto.
"F*#! Hamas. F@+% Israel. F##+ Fatah. F!+~ UN. F@#% UNWRA. F&~+ USA!"
You know, that's the kind of program I can get behind.
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I wonder what position within Hamas the 7 kids (4 died, 3 injured) on a Gaza beach who were hit by Israeli bombs yesterday held.
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I wonder what position within Hamas the 7 kids (4 died, 3 injured) on a Gaza beach who were hit by Israeli bombs yesterday held.
According to the IDF: (my own translation)
Initials details from our inquiry of the event show that an attack was made in the area, where terrorist dwelled and from which they carried out attacks. If indeed civilians were harmed, that is a tragic incidence. It is important to remember that the cynical use that Hamas makes of the people of Gaza held hostage by them often leads us to about attacks against terrorists, as have been proved many times the last few days. We have no interest in harming citizens who got caught in the circumstances.
Make of that what you will. For whatever it's worth, there is some truth in it - the IDF carried more than a thousand attacks on Gaza. Had it really been in the business of killing civilians, you'd have tens of thousands dead by this point. A more cold and calculating argument is that those air strikes are really, really expensive, and are used with discretion - mindless killing is simply not effective enough to justify them.
In short there's little reason to believe that the children where the designated target of that attack. One can argue that the IDF didn't do enough to prevent their deaths, but I think without really knowing exactly what happened and how it happened that doesn't make much sense. The blame for those childrens' deaths should full where it's due - on the mutual failure to reach a peaceful solution to the conflict.The subject of the civilian death caused by the IDF comes up often - and it should. What's important to do is take those numbers in perspective and realize that given the confines, an actual effort is made to minimize them. The numbers speak for themselves - thousands of bombardments into a civilian area resulting in hundreds of death is a very low ratio, especially when one missed attack can result in the death of more than twenty people. Compare, for example, to the death toll in Iraq caused directly by U.S attacks - according to Wikipedia, somewhere between 5k and 10k civilian casualties in the first month of fighting. Condition in Iraq were not nearly as bad as in Gaza.
And if one really wants to see how it looks when an army is actually trying to kill civilians, look to Syria. What you see in Israel is very tame, when put in the context of a war.
It's important for me to stress the point that neither I nor any sane human is happy with those deaths. Only that given the sort of military operation Israel is undertaking, some deaths are inevitable. Blaming Israel of purposefully murdering children is not accurate or helpful - it's conquering those people's lands in the first place that's the issue, and changing that is the only way to stop the deaths. For now, 113 missiles were fired from Hamas into Israel territory yesterday. Just as Hamas can't be expected not to shoot those missiles, Israel can't be expected not to retaliate. The leaders of Israel and Hamas are still in contact via Egypt to try and reach a ceasefire (it seemed like we had one a couple days ago, but Hamas decided to reject it).
Honestly, and I apologize in advance if this is not politically correct, isn't the reason there doesn't seem to be a solution to the problem that it is a situation only made possible by large amounts of foreign capital? We like to think in terms of solution by returning to some sort of natural state, but without massive power and money used to prop that situation up, it would never have happened. At its heart is an even more vicious conflict than Ireland (which was certainly nothing to sneeze at, with millions dead and centuries behind it), also made different because the brits were one part of the conflict.
I wish it could be as tsuruki says, but that style of all-out warfare would likely escalate into nuclear war today. And, of course, the cultural war has been going on even longer than the nordic conflicts have, so don't hold your breath, I guess.
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Having given my "Israeli's are not a bloodthirsty tribe of child killers, war means unintentional casualties" speech... I believe this round of fighting is almost exclusively Israel's fault. Following the union of the Hamas with Patah in the Palestinian government, Israeli leadership has been anxious to find away to undo the union, not wanting Hamas to get a stronger political foothold than it already has. Using the kidnapping of the three Israeli children as a flimsy excuse, they sent the IDF to try and break the new government by force. When it was later found out that while "searching" for the children (in practice taking dozens of prisoners with no charges against them, wrecking homes and public buildings, and disrupting life in any way possible) the army already knew they were dead... that's inexcusable. That was a pointless, dangerous provocation. And lo and behold, Hamas retaliated. And when they did, they did it in such force that Israel had to retaliate too... and from there to here it was the usual spiral of violence.
Having given my "Israeli's are not a bloodthirsty tribe of child killers, war means unintentional casualties" speech... I believe this round of fighting is almost exclusively Israel's fault. Following the union of the Hamas with Patah in the Palestinian government, Israeli leadership has been anxious to find away to undo the union, not wanting Hamas to get a stronger political foothold than it already has. Using the kidnapping of the three Israeli children as a flimsy excuse, they sent the IDF to try and break the new government by force. When it was later found out that while "searching" for the children (in practice taking dozens of prisoners with no charges against them, wrecking homes and public buildings, and disrupting life in any way possible) the army already knew they were dead... that's inexcusable. That was a pointless, dangerous provocation. And lo and behold, Hamas retaliated. And when they did, they did it in such force that Israel had to retaliate too... and from there to here it was the usual spiral of violence.
Which is a win for israel, because it gets them more land, and thats the only thing they're not making any more of.
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Having given my "Israeli's are not a bloodthirsty tribe of child killers, war means unintentional casualties" speech... I believe this round of fighting is almost exclusively Israel's fault. Following the union of the Hamas with Patah in the Palestinian government, Israeli leadership has been anxious to find away to undo the union, not wanting Hamas to get a stronger political foothold than it already has. Using the kidnapping of the three Israeli children as a flimsy excuse, they sent the IDF to try and break the new government by force. When it was later found out that while "searching" for the children (in practice taking dozens of prisoners with no charges against them, wrecking homes and public buildings, and disrupting life in any way possible) the army already knew they were dead... that's inexcusable. That was a pointless, dangerous provocation. And lo and behold, Hamas retaliated. And when they did, they did it in such force that Israel had to retaliate too... and from there to here it was the usual spiral of violence.Which is a win for israel, because it gets them more land, and thats the only thing they're not making any more of.
That's a jumbled up view of things.
The desire to have more land is purely a religious and racist concept in Israel - it's about people wanting to unify and settle all the lands that were supposedly given by God to the ancient Jews. It's not about greed, it's about ethnic domination.
These views are held by some in Israel, but many (including me) strongly disagree, of course. Israel isn't lacking for land (70% of the country is a perfectly habitable desert that's currently almost empty), and the atrocious crimes committed daily in the occupation, as well as the severe cost both in money and life is way too much to pay for a few more acres of land.
So, Israel doesn't win. It looses. Those deaths could have been prevented. Those millions of dollars could have been used to upgrade our hospitals, to improve our economy, to better our education system. Instead we get another few stinking little caravans for religious nut-jobs to huddle in and make the local Palestinians miserable. Yipee kai yay, mother f*%#er.
EDIT: just had to run for shelter right now, and from the sound of the eventual boom, the attack landed pretty close. I feel real victorious right now.
Absolutely a loss for Israel as a country... but probably still in line with factional forces within the Knesset.
Pretty hawt for a sociopathic chauvinist...
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But remember, atheist scum are the dangerous people. They have no morality, you see.
hat's a jumbled up view of things.
The desire to have more land is purely a religious and racist concept in Israel - it's about people wanting to unify and settle all the lands that were supposedly given by God to the ancient Jews. It's not about greed, it's about ethnic domination.
Its about the same thing its always about: land, water, strategic defense positions. Its not matter of greed its a matter of pragmatism.
She reminds me of a quote... "All hail great warlord George W Bush! May he kill every man, woman and child in the Middle East!"
I wonder what position within Hamas the 7 kids (4 died, 3 injured) on a Gaza beach who were hit by Israeli bombs yesterday held.According to the IDF: (my own translation)
Initials details from our inquiry of the event show that an attack was made in the area, where terrorist dwelled and from which they carried out attacks. If indeed civilians were harmed, that is a tragic incidence. It is important to remember that the cynical use that Hamas makes of the people of Gaza held hostage by them often leads us to about attacks against terrorists, as have been proved many times the last few days. We have no interest in harming citizens who got caught in the circumstances.Make of that what you will. For whatever it's worth, there is some truth in it...
Well, I could link to a video showing an almost empty beach where they played, but you'd (general you) have to look at two dead and mangled kids, so I'll refrain from posting that link.
A Danish reporter and several other international journalists were just around the corner from the beach when the attack hit and they all came rushing to see what had happened. The Danish reporter told us, on the news yesterday, that the journalists were all horrified at the attack on an almost empty beach with kids playing on it.So yeah, I don't really give much credence to the IDF report.
As for minimizing civilian casualties. Well, they say they do.
Like their "knock on the roof" bombs. I wonder how many people would be able to gather up kids or elderly people and vacate a multi-story house in 57 seconds - including anyone who might have been injured in the "knock" bomb impact.
Then add to that the fact that they do this during the night too.
Meanwhile there's a warning app for Israelis...
I totally agree, comrades, about not trusting the sacred word of the IDF, but, as a citizen of the United States of America, I feel compelled to note that Lord Snow has a point. It's not exactly Shock-and-Awe proportions.
I keep waiting for more translations from our comrades in Israel/Palestine, but I guess the Britishiznoid comrades are more prolific.
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As for minimizing civilian casualties. Well, they say they do.
Like their "knock on the roof" bombs. I wonder how many people would be able to gather up kids or elderly people and vacate a multi-story house in 57 seconds - including anyone who might have been injured in the "knock" bomb impact.
Note that there was enough warning from the phone call for them to be ready and filming when the first bomb hit. I've seen another video in which there was enough time to set up a fixed camera across the street and catch both bombs. That video appeared to show a minute between strikes, but there was very clearly a cut in the middle where some video was removed. The claim is that there is normally 10-15 minutes between the strikes.
And remember, the warnings allow time to set up these cameras.
So... It could be worse? Not a ringing endorsement, I know.
As for minimizing civilian casualties. Well, they say they do.
Like their "knock on the roof" bombs. I wonder how many people would be able to gather up kids or elderly people and vacate a multi-story house in 57 seconds - including anyone who might have been injured in the "knock" bomb impact.Note that there was enough warning from the phone call for them to be ready and filming when the first bomb hit. I've seen another video in which there was enough time to set up a fixed camera across the street and catch both bombs. That video appeared to show a minute between strikes, but there was very clearly a cut in the middle where some video was removed. The claim is that there is normally 10-15 minutes between the strikes.
And remember, the warnings allow time to set up these cameras.
So... It could be worse? Not a ringing endorsement, I know.
I'm not seeing or hearing a cut, there's continuous sound without any interruptions throughout the clip.
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As for the "using human shields" charge against Hamas, both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch both investigated those charges after the "Cast Lead" operation in 2009:
Amnesty: "Contrary to claims by Israel WE FOUND NO EVIDENCE of Hamas using Palestinians as human shields but a number of examples of Israeli troops holding Palestinian civilians hostage while using their homes as firing positions." (emphasis added)
HRW: "To date, the Israeli government and IDF have denied wrongdoing for civilian deaths during the Gaza fighting, saying the military did everything possible to minimize civilian casualties. One element of this argument is that Hamas placed non-combatants in danger by hiding and engaging Israeli forces from amidst civilians, making it impossible for Israeli forces to attack without causing “collateral damage.” As noted, in the 19 IDF attacks Human Rights Watch documented, selected to highlight policies that led to unlawful deaths, WE FOUND NO EVIDENCE that Hamas or other Palestinian fighters were present at the time of the attack." (emphasis added)
Edit:
I would just like to add a personal note. I have nothing against the average Israeli on the ground (or the average Palestinian either). The vast majority of them/you are caught up in a conflict you would rather see end sooner than later. My beef is with the government and the military who sanction these kind of atrocities. The war-hungry and militant part of Hamas (or any other like-minded Palestinian organisation) has my clear derision too (although I can sympathize with the reasons why they have been formed - my country had an active resistance when we were occupied during WWII).
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I'm not seeing or hearing a cut, there's continuous sound without any interruptions throughout the clip.
And remember, the warnings allow time to set up these cameras.So... It could be worse? Not a ringing endorsement, I know.
Yes, it was in the other video. I'll try to find the link, I believe I saw it on reddit.
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Yes, it was in the other video. I'll try to find the link, I believe I saw it on reddit.
I'm not seeing or hearing a cut, there's continuous sound without any interruptions throughout the clip.
Here it is. The comments point out where to look for the jump. Not clear whether RT was aware of the editing or not.
Ground invasion of Gaza has commenced. F*ck Netanyahu, way to escalate the situation.
Certainly they're not trying to slaughter Palestinians. That would be a PR nightmare, if nothing else. But their justifications for the deaths they do cause are pretty thin and completely unreliable.I totally agree, comrades, about not trusting the sacred word of the IDF, but, as a citizen of the United States of America, I feel compelled to note that Lord Snow has a point. It's not exactly Shock-and-Awe proportions.
I keep waiting for more translations from our comrades in Israel/Palestine, but I guess the Britishiznoid comrades are more prolific.
Hmm. Maybe my pre-work [bubble bubble bubble] anti-USA irony didn't work? Oh well. Always next time, I guess.
Btw, my dear friend, Omar the Former Arab Terrorist has changed his Facebook profile so that over a background that reads "I'm ready for Hillary" is an inset with the Palestinian flag and a caption reading "These colors don't run." People were giving him a lot of flack for selling out to the Democrats. Sometimes jokes on the internet don't work as intended.
No, you misunderstand.
He was trying to say that the Palestinian people won't bow down to that sociopathic, war-mongering harridan, either.
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All I can do from here is pray to the Heavens for you and your loved ones to be safe, Lord Snow, and for Israelites and Palestinians to one day find the strength to forgive and be forgiven.
+1
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Well, I could link to a video showing an almost empty beach where they played, but you'd (general you) have to look at two dead and mangled kids, so I'll refrain from posting that link.
I asked a friend in the army (generally a reliable source of information) what happened on that beach. Apparently, they attack was made from a boat - there was a little cabin from which Hamas made several attacks in the past few days. The ship blew the cabin up without knowledge that the kids were inside. There's a serious investigation going on about the fact that no one checked. Like others said, if nothing else, killing kids is bad for PR, which even the army understands.
Ground invasion of Gaza has commenced. F*ck Netanyahu, way to escalate the situation.
My initial reaction was the same - it was, perhaps, much stronger, as I have several friends and relatives who might find themselves as part of the invasion force.
However, there's information that I didn't have at the time, and that's changing the picture significantly - the recent discovery of just how extensive the Hamas network of tunnels is. Apparently they've been busy, digging very deep into Israel territory. An attack they attempted - sending several armed men into israel via tunnel, to pop up from under ground and either slaughter or kidnap civilians in a nearby village - was found and thwarted just in the nick of time. Imagine that, sneaking into your country. Yeah, we need to find and destroy those tunnels, which is impossible to do with air strikes.I may have criticism for his leadership and his unwillingness to find peace with Palestine, but Netanyahu is a very careful and competent military leader. His previous operation in Gaza was relatively short, restrained and didn't end up with a ground invasion. During the current little war, when right wing politicians called for scaling up the attacks and to invade Gaza with ground forces, he publicly denounced them and said they were "nothing more than background noise".
He gained my trust in his military decision making, basically.
Here it is. The comments point out where to look for the jump. Not clear whether RT was aware of the editing or not.Yes, it was in the other video. I'll try to find the link, I believe I saw it on reddit.
I'm not seeing or hearing a cut, there's continuous sound without any interruptions throughout the clip.
Its clearly staged in any case. Note the absolute lack of people...in this building or either of the ones to either side or on the street...even after some bomb goes off on the roof...and the conveniently placed camera filming the whole thing.
I asked a friend in the army (generally a reliable source of information) what happened on that beach. Apparently, they attack was made from a boat - there was a little cabin from which Hamas made several attacks in the past few days. The ship blew the cabin up without knowledge that the kids were inside. There's a serious investigation going on about the fact that no one checked. Like others said, if nothing else, killing kids is bad for PR, which even the army understands.
Well, I could link to a video showing an almost empty beach where they played, but you'd (general you) have to look at two dead and mangled kids, so I'll refrain from posting that link.
This does not really add up. I've seen the film with the dead toddlers [very disturbing images] and they are too far up the beach for them to have been in some building (there are none anywhere nearby). Furthermore this was shelling. Its an inherently inaccurate weapon that relies on saturating the target area and figuring that something is bound to hit the intended target. Presumably an artillery shell just landed reasonably close to the toddlers and they where killed by the concussion of the nearby blast.
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I asked a friend in the army (generally a reliable source of information) what happened on that beach. Apparently, they attack was made from a boat - there was a little cabin from which Hamas made several attacks in the past few days. The ship blew the cabin up without knowledge that the kids were inside. There's a serious investigation going on about the fact that no one checked. Like others said, if nothing else, killing kids is bad for PR, which even the army understands.
Well, I could link to a video showing an almost empty beach where they played, but you'd (general you) have to look at two dead and mangled kids, so I'll refrain from posting that link.This does not really add up. I've seen the film with the dead toddlers [very disturbing images] and they are too far up the beach for them to have been in some building (there are none anywhere nearby). Furthermore this was shelling. Its an inherently inaccurate weapon that relies on saturating the target area and figuring that something is bound to hit the intended target. Presumably an artillery shell just landed reasonably close to the toddlers and they where killed by the concussion of the nearby blast.
Perhaps I misunderstood my friend, then.
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Its clearly staged in any case. Note the absolute lack of people...in this building or either of the ones to either side or on the street...even after some bomb goes off on the roof...and the conveniently placed camera filming the whole thing.
That doesn't necessarily mean it was staged. I'm told that the IDF phones ahead of the knock bomb, so they would have time to set up a camera before a real strike.
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His previous operation in Gaza was relatively short, restrained and didn't end up with a ground invasion.
That would be 'Pillar of Cloud'?
From Wikipedia: In just one week, the Israeli army destroyed numerous public and private premises, including 52 places of worship, 25 non-governmental organizations (NGOs), 97 schools, 15 health institutions, 14 journalist premises, 8 police stations, 16 government buildings, and 11 political sites. Fifteen factories and 192 trade shops were damaged or destroyed. Twelve water wells as well as agricultural lands were destroyed
Short yes, restrained questionable, efficient definitely.
I'm a little confused. What exactly is the point of blowing up a building if they know the bomb is comming? I mean the entire point of those rockets is they DON"T take a base or infrastructure to set up. Its easier to get down the stairs than grandma.
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I'm a little confused. What exactly is the point of blowing up a building if they know the bomb is comming? I mean the entire point of those rockets is they DON"T take a base or infrastructure to set up. Its easier to get down the stairs than grandma.
So they can claim to be the good guys while taking houses and infrastructure from the Palestinians. Would be like giving us an e-mail 10 minutes before 9-11 and pretending that makes it somehow less terrorism.
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I'm a little confused. What exactly is the point of blowing up a building if they know the bomb is comming? I mean the entire point of those rockets is they DON"T take a base or infrastructure to set up. Its easier to get down the stairs than grandma.I've been wondering that myself.
It seems a horrible way to target militants. I suppose it could be for targeting larger weapon caches.
It is however, a great way to spread fear and punish the populace without killing too many people, which would make for bad PR.
The stated reason is to get weapon stores and (maybe?) places where they manufacture the rockets.
It also probably doesn't hurt that the warning practice accentuates the differences in tactics. "We phone ahead to avoid casualties, they drive car-bombs into markets."
Well, I could link to a video showing an almost empty beach where they played, but you'd (general you) have to look at two dead and mangled kids, so I'll refrain from posting that link.I asked a friend in the army (generally a reliable source of information) what happened on that beach. Apparently, they attack was made from a boat - there was a little cabin from which Hamas made several attacks in the past few days. The ship blew the cabin up without knowledge that the kids were inside. There's a serious investigation going on about the fact that no one checked. Like others said, if nothing else, killing kids is bad for PR, which even the army understands.
Like I wrote above, international journalists were very, very close by, so let's hear it from their perspective:
NY Times (article covers several journalists) - Witness Accounts of Gaza Attack That Killed 4 Boys.The Guardian - Witness to a shelling: first-hand account of deadly strike on Gaza port.
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Publicly denounced the idea of invading Gaza with ground forces, then went ahead and did so.
Things change. What spurred the attack was the Hamas attempt at attacking through the tunnels, that was stopped literally minutes before turning into a disaster with many casualties. IDF currently focuses on finding and destroying those tunnels. Unlike many other actions taken in this war, this one is one billion percent justified. If they can manage to make the ground invasion achieve it's goals - bring down the tunnel infrastructure - and pull out as quickly as possible, that move has my full support. Mostly ineffectual missile fire is something that requires a retaliation - sending 12 armed soldiers into the heart of a town to kill as many as possible is too much of a step up in the aggression. No country in the world would tolerate that possibility.
And yes, he changed his mind. A famous Israeli leader once said, "only a mule would refuse to change it's mind" - part of being a good military leader is knowing when to exert force, and how much. So far, Netanyahu showed more restraint, control and calculation than most in any government I witnessed so far.
If the only thing that the IDF did was actually collapse the tunnels... I'd agree with you.
But I think it would be a naive mind that thought that's the 'only' thing they're going to do.
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If the only thing that the IDF did was actually collapse the tunnels... I'd agree with you.
But I think it would be a naive mind that thought that's the 'only' thing they're going to do.
Currently Israeli military people are tentatively assessing that we might be able to collapse the tunnel infrastructure - many other objectives are reported to being pursued, such as finding and destroying or stealing Hamas weapon stashes and missiles.
At the very least fewer houses are being destroyed, and most of the civilian population wisely chose to adhere to the military's demand to evacuate the areas of the invasion, limiting the amount of civilian casualties.
You are right, of course, that things might get much worse than that in a blink of the eye. Understand, however, that bringing down those tunnels IS crucial.