I have absolutely zero percent problem with humanitarian aid going to Gaza. I don't wish the Palestenians ill, but I certainly wouldn't want people firing rockets at me or my country, and I think the expectation that Israel should be ok with any non zero number of rocket attacks laughable.And as to who is killing more, so what? You want to live don't pick a fight you can't win.This should be interesting:
The part that should be particularly interesting is:
"The chairman of IHH, a major organiser of the Gaza Freedom Flotilla I, said that Turkish army troops will accompany the ships to protect it from any potential attack, pointing out that his organisation demanded the government to provide protection for them as Turkish citizens."
It could be just bravado, though. I can't find any confirmation there will be armed Turkish troops if, in fact, there is another flotilla.
. What did I say that was an insult?
And as no surprise you are totally unabe to give a non-biased answer. There are none soblind as those who refuse to see.
You called me blind and biased. That is an ad hom, not an argument. Note the complete, total, and utter lack of substance to anything you've said to actually make your argument.
Do better.
Merely pointing out that your argument is hypocritical
Which you haven't done. You didn't even mention hypocrisy, much less demonstrated it.
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. What did I say that was an insult?And as no surprise you are totally unabe to give a non-biased answer. There are none soblind as those who refuse to see.You called me blind and biased. That is an ad hom, not an argument. Note the complete, total, and utter lack of substance to anything you've said to actually make your argument.
Do better.
Merely pointing out that your argument is hypocriticalWhich you haven't done. You didn't even mention hypocrisy, much less demonstrated it.
And you are. Wanting Israel to be ok with something you'd certainly never be ok with, ignoring the number of rockets fired into Israel, etc. And I don't have to say the word hypocritical to show your argument is, obvious hypocrisy is obvious.
But you are vehment in your hatred and I doubt this will get through that any more than anything else I have said will.
So are you ok with bombing detroit to get the criminals there?
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And you are. Wanting Israel to be ok with something you'd certainly never be ok with
So your charge of hypocrisy relies on your ability to look into an alternate reality AND read my mind to see what I'd be ok with.
ignoring the number of rockets fired into Israel
This has not been ignored. Its been addressed and refuted.
You cannot explain why Israel is justified for retaliating against rocket attacks but the Palestinians are not justified for responding to the helicopter attacks. Your cherry picked argument to limit the conversation to JUST the rockets demonstrates that you're either anti Palestinian or just pro helicopter.
So a simple question I asked, how many 5 pound rockets are you ok with having fired at your house?
You asked a deliberately misleading, intellectually dishonest talking point that you are unable to justify with anything other than rote repetition. Are you anti Palestinian or just pro helicopter? How many helicopters firing rockets at your house would you be ok with? If evolution is true why are there still monkeys? Simple questions.
And tell me, what came first in this conflict, rockets beng launched into Israel or Israel attacking?
Not that it matters since it was so long ago, but Israel attacking. The invasion is a response to a kidnapping, which was a response to a bombing, which is a response to.... If you go back far enough it was a wave of illegal immigration, Israeli terrorists violence,false flag operations, kicking palastinians out of their homes and then keeping them from returning once the winner was clear. Mind you at this point that's about as relevant as thanksgiving getting its start with the pilgrims engaging in grave robbing and canibalism.
Who is Detroit at war with?
Detroit
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And tell me, what came first in this conflict, rockets beng launched into Israel or Israel attacking?
It didn't start with rockets. It started with the kidnapping and murder of 3 Israeli young men (age 16-19 I believe) near the West Bank. We still don't know who did this, but Israel blamed Hamas operatives - which is weird since Hamas is based in Gaza, quite a way away from the West Bank.
Then the IDF launch “Operation Brother’s Keeper” to find the three teenagers, arresting more than 300 Palestinians and actually killing other Palestinians too. Things escalate from there.Here's a time line. Second time line concerning the kidnappings.
I still haven't seen anything proving, as Netanyahu so vehemently claimed, who actually did the kidnapping.
I think they might be on to something, here.
My proposal:
Give every country a patriotic Gundam.
Seal off the middle east to outsiders.
Last Gundam surviving wins- that country has control of the area for the next year. They are held responsible for any atrocities/war crimes that are committed during that time(including during the Gundam fight itself to deter cheating), and they cannot banish a population/invade another country during their reign(to keep them from altering the playing field for next year).
Rinse.
Repeat.
...and it starts to emerge that Israel was looking for a fight, probably to break up any possibility of a unity government between Hamas and Fatah.
I pray to almighty god that this isn't true. Please god. This would be the start of something ugly if it was.
...and it starts to emerge that Israel was looking for a fight, probably to break up any possibility of a unity government between Hamas and Fatah.I pray to almighty god that this isn't true. Please god. This would be the start of something ugly if it was.
It doesn't matter. Far less reasonable things are believed about israel with less evidence. The truth is irrelevant, the truthiness will be unstoppable. Conversely, I think the difference between Hamas and a Palestinian terrorist not-hamas will be lost on Israel and the west.
I haven't rockets at anyone. If I were to start firing rockets at powers greater than myself I'd fully expect to be blown back to the stone age. Nor have I kidnapped anyone. Nor dug tunnels under foreign soil for neffarious purposes.So a simple question I asked, how many 5 pound rockets are you ok with having fired at your house?You asked a deliberately misleading, intellectually dishonest talking point that you are unable to justify with anything other than rote repetition. Are you anti Palestinian or just pro helicopter? How many helicopters firing rockets at your house would you be ok with? Simple questions.
I haven't launched missiles at anyone. If I were to start firing missiles at angry, deprived people I'd fully expect to be blown back to the stone age. Nor have I kidnapped anyone. Nor carved their land up to give to people I like and stolen their water.
The biggest, if not only, difference there is the argument that might makes right.
Or not to blame the current generation for actions taken by their grand parents and great grand parents.
The current generation is responsible for the embargo. The current generation is responsible for mass arrests and indefinite detention of protestors. The current generation is responsible for maintaining a system of roads. The current generation has maintained the Israeli only roads and check points effectively shrinking the already tiny area of the west bank. The current generation supports denying them so much as concrete because it might be misused.
You do not need to go back a generation to find a good reason for armed resistance.
But can't expect to hear anything pro Israel from you.
Have you TRIED basing an argument in facts and evidence rather than ad homs?
The more bad arguments for your position I see the less convinced I am that there are any good ones.
And again, Israel didn't start this spat. They might have wanted it but Hamas, independent cell or not, gave them the reason/
Your designation of when this spat started is entirely arbitrary, and cherry picked to make Hamas out to be the aggressor.
I don't know Israeli Arabs from Adam, but my Hebrew-speaking expatriate comrade once scoffed when someone referred to Palestinians as second-class citizens.
"Second-class citizens are the sephardim. Third-class citizens are the beta. Fourth-class, now we speak of Arabs."
Was bopping around on the Guardian's site and came across this article from last year:
Ethiopian women in Israel 'given contraceptive without consent'
Hamas can stop digging the tunnels. They cannot stop the tunnels from being dug. That is an enormous difference you're not getting, and it applies no matter what you want to fill the blanks in with.
Hammas can stop firing rockets. They cannot stop the rockets from being fired.
If Hamas stopped digging the tunnels someone else would dig the tunnels: they're not just terror tunnels, they're multi use. They smuggle everything from weapons to x boxes, medicine and caviar.
If Hamas as an organization died tomorrow, someone else would set up shop , put up a sign that says "under new management" and then it would continue unabated. You cannot treat "the palastinians" as a single entity. What central control over the area that exists is loose to non existant. Your expectation and experience that a government has effective control over its territory and people does not apply here.
All of these things are extremely possible and would take away many of Israel's concerns about safety and security.It would not. Israel is more than a little twitchy when it comes to security and will remain so for the foreseeable future: certainly longer than than anyone can keep the entirety of the Palestinian population away from a shovel.
Your point in this post is that...
1) Violence is being committed, whether Hamas exists or not
2) Therefore, Hamas cannot be held responsible for the violence it commits
That sum it up?
Close.
1) The violence is being committed whether hamas exists or not
2) Any plan which starts with "Violence will not happen" is an impossibility.
Close.
1) The violence is being committed whether hamas exists or not
2) Any plan which starts with "Violence will not happen" is an impossibility.
Except no one expects your version of 2 to happen. The Israeli's aren't stupid, they know violence is a possibility. What they want is mechanisms to stop it and find those committing it.
Hamas doesn't do anything to stop rocket attacks. They hand out order forms for more rockets.
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Interesting article for the "no faction of the Palestinians wants to work with Israel" crowd to consider:
Operation Protective Edge: Reading between the lines
Of particular interest is:
"The key to understanding Israel's bombardment of Gaza is the unity government between Hamas and Fatah that was formed on 2 June this year. While Palestinian unity is itself something that Israel has always done its best to sabotage, the fact that the US and EU actively welcomed the formation of the unity government and said that they would be willing to work with it in terms of negotiations, rocked Israel to its core. The notion of Hamas as the irrationally intransigent arch-rejectionist has always been absurd, but it is nonetheless an important part of Israel's own rejectionist mythology, in which Hamas's 'terrorism' and supposed inherent 'anti-Semitism' is utilised by Israel in order to maintain the status quo of occupation and the annexation of the West Bank, with Gaza contained and isolated under constant siege and the permanent threat of Israeli violence. Hamas's acceptance of the unity government meant that it in effect accepted the US terms for its cooperation with any Palestinian government, which is an acceptance of 'past peace deals' and thus, in turn, an acceptance of the PA's commitment to a negotiated two-state solution based on UN resolution 242."
I can't pretend to be privy to no particularly helpful insights or sophisticated analysis, but it's what I was trying to puzzle out on my own: If Hamas was dealing with Fatah, wouldn't that indicate they were about to, in practice at least, start dealing with Israel? Bibi: "We can't have that! Boom, boom, boom! Brother's Keeper and Protective Edge!"
Close.
1) The violence is being committed whether hamas exists or not
2) Any plan which starts with "Violence will not happen" is an impossibility.
Except no one expects your version of 2 to happen. The Israeli's aren't stupid, they know violence is a possibility. What they want is mechanisms to stop it and find those committing it.
Hamas doesn't do anything to stop rocket attacks. They hand out order forms for more rockets.
You're right, no one expects #2 to happen, which is why Israel is so obviously disingenuous when it claims it won't negotiate until it does.
What they want is genocide, pure and simple. If they wanted to stop it, they'd find and close the tunnels on the Israeli side.
Sorry, but there are no good guys in this conflict, just bigger bullies.
Israel got a bloody nose and came back with a glock.
Except no one expects your version of 2 to happen.Close.
1) The violence is being committed whether hamas exists or not
2) Any plan which starts with "Violence will not happen" is an impossibility.
Right. Its a canard. A hoopla. A distraction. A disingenuous talking point to ensure that NOTHING ever happens because the status quo that we have now is the absolute best thing possible for Israel. Look in this thread. Do you see how many calls there are for zero rocket attacks? Do you see people saying that the violence ends and then israel will promise to do something.. eventually?
The Israeli's aren't stupid, they know violence is a possibility. What they want is mechanisms to stop it and find those committing it.
Hamas doesn't do anything to stop rocket attacks. They hand out order forms for more rockets.
Sometimes they do one, sometimes they do the other.
Like I keep trying to tell you: The palastinians do not have a police force capable of stopping this. They would need to be heavily armed, heavily trained, and well equiped. Israel won't let a goup matching that description exist, much less travel through the check points it has set up within the west bank.
Look what happened with the kidnappings. Not-Hamas did something, Hamas gets the blame and they get invaded. Expecting any government to stop ALL crime with 2 million really pissed off people is absurd and they know it.
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Interesting article for the "no faction of the Palestinians wants to work with Israel" crowd to consider:
It was surprising to see how quickly they were able to set up an operation to arrest hundreds of people, including many of the ones who were just released in the prisoner swap. That is a lot of people to track.
It seems likely Netanyahu had the plan ready and waiting.
Interesting article for the "no faction of the Palestinians wants to work with Israel" crowd to consider:
It was surprising to see how quickly they were able to set up an operation to arrest hundreds of people, including many of the ones who were just released in the prisoner swap. That is a lot of people to track.
It seems likely Netanyahu had the plan ready and waiting.
Most likely. Including blaming Hamas for it.
It Turns Out Hamas Didn’t Kidnap and Kill the 3 Israeli Teens After All.
"...my wife to kill and Gildor to frame for it."
Although, some of the article I've been reading lead me to believe that I was too soft on Israel in some of my timelines above; apparently, some argue that although there were rockets from Gaza after Operation Brother's Keeper, Hamas didn't order rocket attacks until after the IDF started lobbing missiles into Gaza.
If so, I apologize to the anti-Semitic Islamic fanatics in Hamas for the calumny and slander.
Something else that's interesting is the division between the Egyptian military government and Hamas. The Egyptian military sees Hamas as allies of the Muslim Brotherhood, a group they don't particularly like, and has been very cooperative with Israel lately.
With the recent dead children in Gaza though, the Egyptian military has started to try and distance itself from Israel due to public opinion hating Israel more than the Muslim Brotherhood. This has pushed Hamas back into being stronger player in Middle-East politics.
Intermittent violence serves the political agenda of both sides. As long as that's true, enduring peace isn't an option.
What do you have that indicates the Egyptian military is distancing itself from Israel?
I cursorily google and get, from three days ago, Saudi, Egypt and Israel work together in Gaza attack.
I note that Middle East Monitor is a pro-Palestinian publication, and web surf over to DEBKAfile, which isn't, and, through the paywall I can see the beginning of an article which starts:
"Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu was wavering Sunday, July 27, between sticking with his understanding with Saudi Arabia and Egypt to crush Hamas, at the cost of a deep rift with Washington, or going along with Kerry, at the cost of Israel's security against dangerous terrorists."
Got around the subscription pop-up and I can see titles, but not articles, with such evocative names as: "A Troika Runs the Gaza War: Abdullah, Sisi and Netanyahu" and "US Ceasefire Ploy Deepens Rift with Saudi Arabia and Egypt" with the subheading "Facing inflexible Egypt, Kerry turns to Hamas Patron Qatar to soften its leader Khaled Meshaal."
I don't know Israeli Arabs from Adam, but my Hebrew-speaking expatriate comrade once scoffed when someone referred to Palestinians as second-class citizens.
"Second-class citizens are the sephardim. Third-class citizens are the beta. Fourth-class, now we speak of Arabs."
A bit old, but interesting:
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I don't know Israeli Arabs from Adam, but my Hebrew-speaking expatriate comrade once scoffed when someone referred to Palestinians as second-class citizens.
"Second-class citizens are the sephardim. Third-class citizens are the beta. Fourth-class, now we speak of Arabs."
A bit old, but interesting:
Wow that place is insane
And Israel is willing to call a cease-fire in order to allow Humanitarian aid into Palestine, if Hamas, and the rest of Palestine is.
"We are now maintaining an unlimited humanitarian cease-fire," Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor told CNN on Monday. "Our troops will only fire if they come under direct attack."Are they allowing Gazans to come back into the areas they control? To search for survivors, or bodies or belongings. They weren't in the previous ceasefire.
Are they continuing to seek out and destroy tunnels, possibly with people inside (or in the buildings above)? They were in the previous ceasefire.
There seems to be an issue on both sides, where "cease fire" really means "reload".
I don't know the answers, but here's the CNN piece.
What do you have that indicates the Egyptian military is distancing itself from Israel?
I cursorily google and get, from three days ago, Saudi, Egypt and Israel work together in Gaza attack.
I note that Middle East Monitor is a pro-Palestinian publication, and web surf over to DEBKAfile, which isn't, and, through the paywall I can see the beginning of an article which starts:
"Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu was wavering Sunday, July 27, between sticking with his understanding with Saudi Arabia and Egypt to crush Hamas, at the cost of a deep rift with Washington, or going along with Kerry, at the cost of Israel's security against dangerous terrorists."
Egyptian military targeting Hamas.
Israel building deals to sell natural gas to Egypt and Turkey.
Since civil war in Syria, European trade for Jordan now goes through Israel.
The Syrian civil war has been a drain on Hamas, both politically and financiall. For one, in 2012 they started backing the fundamentalist rebels. This put them at odds with Iran, a major political backer and funder, because Iran still supports the regime in Syria. Hamas headquarters used to be located in Damascus, but had to relocate to Qatar. They've since worked at rebuilding their relationship with Iran though.
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Note "complaints about civilian deaths" by CNN as if both sides were equally killing civilians. This is the "anti isreali" american media.
BBC Gaza death toll over 1,000 - Israeli toll up to 42
The palastinians have killed TWO civilians in this flare up.
Look at that bomb crater that used to be a house and tell me with a strait face they're trying to minimize casualties.