So... I was looking at the following feat; Disciple of the Sword. I began to wonder why oracles were left off the list of applicable classes for this feat. I thought... Hey this would be perfect for a battle oracle (a little redundant on some parts, but not too much). Especially if that oracle's primary deity happened to be Iomedae and that's when I noticed something odd.
Iomedae is not listed as a god for any of the oracle Mysteries... not a single one. What is that all about? You'd think she would at least be listed under the Battle oracle as one of her domains is War. Very confused.
*EDIT*
I must amend my last statement... I discovered she is listed for the recently added Solar mystery from The Harrow Handbook. Even so... One of the major deities and only one Mystery? Why is that?
Actually, she is mentioned for the Battle Mystery. So she had only one Mystery until the Harrow Handbook.
Why? Because oracles do not have to pray to a deity for their spells. they gain their spells from their curse as much as sorcerer's gain their spells from their blood.
Probably since oracles don't even need gods, though I admit just 'divine caster level 4' makes more sense.
What if Iomedae hates oracles? They get divine powers regardless of affiliation. As Ms. Paladin she loathes their lack of conviction.
This is what I love about the oracle fluff, you can spin it in so many different ways while still having the same basic class.
Paladins can't take it either, whats the issue?
Why? Because oracles do not have to pray to a deity for their spells. they gain their spells from their curse as much as sorcerer's gain their spells from their blood.
Essentially. Oracles gain their power when a god/elder thing/force of the universe/etc. goes rummaging through their heads and remodeling things however they feel like. That is why they get a curse- they are literally broken by the modifications that allows them to use their power.
Anyway, what does this mean overall? Well, Iomedae can certainly be the one that goes messing around in people's heads, but that doesn't mean they were originally a part of any formal organization, and does not compel them to join such an organization. The oracle could get their powers and decide 'hey, these demons are cool guys', and there is little Iomedae could do to stop it. But by the same right, Rovagug might have thought it could make you its champion (it also gets the battle mystery), and instead you fled to an Iomedae temple instead.
So what does this mean for the feat? Well, it is meant for clergy and servants of Iomedae's religion. Looking at the feat, it is not some divine power-it is just that her worshipers think longswords are cool, and spend their time training in them.
Now, you might say that this isn't fair, since that should mean that an oracle who worships her should be able to do it too... but hey, cavaliers, monks, etc. that worship her don't get this either, and they have just as much right as you do to it. Heck, as Scavion noted, paladins are also left out. So I will stick with the current version, since it fits well enough with the general setting, and it was what the designers decided to put down.
Actually, she is mentioned for the Battle Mystery. So she had only one Mystery until the Harrow Handbook.
Hmmm... clearly I was distracted whilst looking at the Battle Mystery, because you are correct. Her name is very clearly listed there. Need more coffee apparently.
Probably since oracles don't even need gods, though I admit just 'divine caster level 4' makes more sense.
Indeed.
Paladins can't take it either, whats the issue?
There's another thread about such things that references the Full BAB vs. 3/4 BAB on why paladins don't have access to the feat. To which I ask, if that is the reason why paladins do not have access to the feat, then why aren't oracles added as they are 3/4 BAB.
Why? Because oracles do not have to pray to a deity for their spells. they gain their spells from their curse as much as sorcerer's gain their spells from their blood.Essentially. Oracles gain their power when a god/elder thing/force of the universe/etc. goes rummaging through their heads and remodeling things however they feel like. That is why they get a curse- they are literally broken by the modifications that allows them to use their power.
Anyway, what does this mean overall? Well, Iomedae can certainly be the one that goes messing around in people's heads, but that doesn't mean they were originally a part of any formal organization, and does not compel them to join such an organization. The oracle could get their powers and decide 'hey, these demons are cool guys', and there is little Iomedae could do to stop it. But by the same right, Rovagug might have thought it could make you its champion (it also gets the battle mystery), and instead you fled to an Iomedae temple instead.
So what does this mean for the feat? Well, it is meant for clergy and servants of Iomedae's religion. Looking at the feat, it is not some divine power-it is just that her worshipers think longswords are cool, and spend their time training in them.
Now, you might say that this isn't fair, since that should mean that an oracle who worships her should be able to do it too... but hey, cavaliers, monks, etc. that worship her don't get this either, and they have just as much right as you do to it. Heck, as Scavion noted, paladins are also left out. So I will stick with the current version, since it fits well enough with the general setting, and it was what the designers decided to put down.
I get the feel you're talking about, restricting it to the organized "holy warriors" of the clergy. As far as fairness goes, I'm not all that concerned about who actually gets the feat I was more interested in what the general Paizo folks thought about why the oracles were left out. I'd say your explanation is a fairly good one, mechanics-wise and fluff-wise.
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Without unnecessary prerequisites how could we tell if we're playing Pathfinder?
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Probably since oracles don't even need gods, though I admit just 'divine caster level 4' makes more sense.
Oracles are divine tools and gain their powers from a god.
The god just does not ask permission. He touches the person and bestows his divine purpose upon the oracle without waiting for faith or prayers. The oracle has no choice in the matter.
Perhaps Iomedae simply prefers to bestow her touch on those who seek her blessings in a more traditional manner?
One more thing to think about would be the two page religious propaganda piece that is in Faiths and Philosophies.
This skill with long swords is a product of strenuous training as a form of devotion to Iomedae. Oracles aren't necessarily devoted to any gods so they have no more right to this feat than Summoners or Rangers.
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"Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deity."
"An inquisitor is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, longbow, repeating crossbow, shortbow, and the favored weapon of her deity."
Nothing similar for the oracle (or a paladin) unless it is under some mystery.
The feat idea require you to have Iomeade as your god (and paladin and oracles can have their spell even if they don't follow any god) and to get the longsword as a benefit from the class features.
First of all i didn't know they changed this feat, wow this is a good feat now, for reference the original was that.
I guess the reason that oracles don't get it is becuase a)they aren't usually affiliated with a church and b)they get half the benefits of the feat with their weapon mastery revelation.
I also kinda understand why magi don't get it (again they can get most of this feat's benefits through other means).
I also understand why bards don't get it (most combat bards in Golarion are associated with Serenrae).
I also kinda understand why rangers can't get this (again fluff restrictions)
What i don't understand is why on earth paladins and cavaliers don't get it, i mean whyyyy???? why can't the two "shinning knight"/"holy knight" classes can't get that feat? the only reason i can think of is that the fighter class dragged them down.
Paladins can't take it either, whats the issue?
They already get the chance to divinely bless their skill with a weapon, it just happens that any weapon they choose can be divinely blessed.
Because Clerics and Inquisitors are so devoted to their god they get magic powers. No other class can be that devoted or else they'd have cleric of Inquisitor powers too. Paladins are out because they are not powered by their devotion to their own god but by the fire of their own righteousness.
Because Clerics and Inquisitors are so devoted to their god they get magic powers. No other class can be that devoted or else they'd have cleric of Inquisitor powers too. Paladins are out because they are not powered by their devotion to their own god but by the fire of their own righteousness.
No.
While there can be paladins that don't get their powers (both paladin powers and spells) from deities, not all of them are so.In addition the inquisitors are in the same boat as paladins.
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Because Clerics and Inquisitors are so devoted to their god they get magic powers. No other class can be that devoted or else they'd have cleric of Inquisitor powers too. Paladins are out because they are not powered by their devotion to their own god but by the fire of their own righteousness.No.
While there can be paladins that don't get their powers (both paladin powers and spells) from deities, not all of them are so.
In addition the inquisitors are in the same boat as paladins.
I think, officially, Inquisitors are supposed to be all tied to deities, like clerics (and unlike paladins or oracles, who could be atheists/maltheists/whatever, if they wanted, since the source of their powers is not dependent on them *liking* the source of their powers (or even believing in them, let alone worshipping them)).
But that's just the setting specifics, and the *flavor* of Inquisitors fits places like Rahadoum and Razmiran (and darker interpretations of Hermea) *far* more than it fits gods like Shelyn or Irori or Gozreh.
If you want to use the Inquisitor class chassis to represent relentless inquisitorial agents of Razmir or Rahadoum, that's just all sorts of thematically appropriate to the setting, as long as you are not attempting to pass that off in Pathfinder Society.
When (non-balance related!) rules/mechanics and setting flavor aren't 100% in synch, go with whatever feels appropriate, recognizing that different tables will have different ideas of what's 'appropriate.' :)
Just keep balance in mind. The Inquisitor is not exactly the Summoner, so it's not going to throw the universe out of alignment if you don't require an Inquisitor to tie to a specific god (although allowing a non-denominational Inquisitor to choose their own favorite weapon would be a step in the wrong direction, IMO).
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I think, officially, Inquisitors are supposed to be all tied to deities, like clerics (and unlike paladins or oracles, who could be atheists/maltheists/whatever, if they wanted, since the source of their powers is not dependent on them *liking* the source of their powers (or even believing in them, let alone worshipping them)).Because Clerics and Inquisitors are so devoted to their god they get magic powers. No other class can be that devoted or else they'd have cleric of Inquisitor powers too. Paladins are out because they are not powered by their devotion to their own god but by the fire of their own righteousness.No.
While there can be paladins that don't get their powers (both paladin powers and spells) from deities, not all of them are so.
In addition the inquisitors are in the same boat as paladins.
Actually...according to James Jacobs, whose opinions are controlling on stuff like this, Inquisitors don't require a Deity. Only Clerics have that restriction. He's mentioned Inquisitors as agents of secular groups (I believe House Thrune specifically) as very possible. So...the rest of your post is more or less canonically acceptable.
Though on Rahadoum specifically, there's the issue of whether they are against Divine Casters like Druids, or just the Gods, since in the former case Inquisitors are also not really allowed. The developers' statements and the books combined make the exact degree of Rahadoum's prejudice against non Deity-affiliated Divine spellcasters a bit unclear.
"Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deity."
"An inquisitor is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, longbow, repeating crossbow, shortbow, and the favored weapon of her deity."Nothing similar for the oracle (or a paladin) unless it is under some mystery.
The feat idea require you to have Iomeade as your god (and paladin and oracles can have their spell even if they don't follow any god) and to get the longsword as a benefit from the class features.
In reference to the proficiencies; that is a very excellent point that I seemed to have overlooked.
Just so we're clear folks, I wasn't referring to the mechanical advantages the Paladin has. I'd assume that was fairly obvious.
Conceptually, why is the Paladin prohibited? RAW a Paladin does not even require a deity, yet many people insist that they are bound to one. You'd think a holy warrior/champion would be the top dog for this kind of thing.
Here's my take on it:
Cleric- requires a deity affiliation. No way around it.
Paladin/Inquistor- 90+% of the time has a deity affiliation, but can access divine power via other ways.
Oracle- little to no specific deity affiliation because it's a broader divine concept that is overwhelming the character rather than a specific archetype of that concept (i.e. a deity)
For example, my little kitsune oracle of life is wandering Galerion with the Pathfinder Society because she knew there was more to the mystery of life (and healing) than could be explained by the god of medicine Qi Zhong and the mother of her race, Daikitsu.
Again you're looking at it the wrong way, you're looking at the Paladin being denied a remedial gift for semi-martials, as opposed to be being granted the awesome power of Smite. It's like asking why Albert Einstein never got courses in remedial physics.Just so we're clear folks, I wasn't referring to the mechanical advantages the Paladin has. I'd assume that was fairly obvious.
Conceptually, why is the Paladin prohibited? RAW a Paladin does not even require a deity, yet many people insist that they are bound to one. You'd think a holy warrior/champion would be the top dog for this kind of thing.
You say that, but if paladins (especial paladins of Iomadae) are supposed to scoff such a bland bonus, then why does Iomadaean Sword Oath exist? And why is it so much worse than Disciple of the Sword?
As a paladin, you get a feat tax for something that doesn't even do as much, while your cleric buddy gets to save his feats and qualify for better ones. And who's supposed to be the defender of the church again?
It still offers access to Greater Weapon Specialization, shield bashing feats, Spellshatter (for dwarves, but still), Greater Weapon Focus, and Martial Mastery (for humans). While some of those require BAB, none that I brought up couldn't be taken for a mid-higher level game.
Furthermore, a human inquisitor or cleric who picks up Martial Mastery can grab a greatsword and have all these feats that are supposed to be for long swords to apply there. At level 16, you can rename the feat to "Disciple of which sword were we talking about again?"
Paladins can't take it either, whats the issue?
Paladins already have a feat that does exactly the same thing, back from somewhere in council of thieves.
Paladins can't take it either, whats the issue?Paladins already have a feat that does exactly the same thing, back from somewhere in council of thieves.
Are you talking about the Iomedaean sword oath feat? becuase that's a terible feat.
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The feat still requires "worshipper of Iomedae" so an Oracle who decides that one day she's cool with Demons would likely not be a worshipper of Iomedae anymore and wouldn't fulfill the pre-reqs. They should have access to the feat. They could be an oracle who had their powers bestowed by a other deity but who worships Iomedae and has trained extensively in the longsword in order to prove their devotion.
Warpriests should also, definitely, be able to take the feat. That way their bonus combat feats can be spent on things other than weapon spec. and greater wf/ws.