Thelemic_Noun |
Do your PCs actually build golems?
It seems to me that the Craft Construct feat and the golem manuals are just there to take up space. I know Craft Construct isn't PFS legal, but some golems seem like a pretty good (or at least interesting) investment.
With Craft Construct, an iron golem becomes affordable between level 14 and 16. The nearest approximation in terms of monster summoning is the elder earth elemental with summon monster VIII.
In comparison, the iron golem has +5 AC, +2 attack, +4 damage, 5 extra points of DR (though this DR is typed), a free-action Con-damage breath weapon, immunity to most magic, and is healed by fire damage.
On the downside, it loses earth glide, 5 feet of reach, and 39 hit points.
On the higher end, the adamantine golem is a steal at 350,000 gp. You are almost guaranteed to never run into a foe that can wield an adamantine vorpal weapon, and few creatures have access to miracle or wish, and fewer still will realize it can be used to kill the golem. That’s on top of its fast healing 10 and DR 15/epic. So your investment will have serious staying power.
The adamantine golem’s attack bonus of +41, 19-20 crit range, and 6d10+13 damage for both of its slam attacks is also impressive.
In addition, it’s 30 ft speed allows it to keep up with the party.
So, am I neglecting something that makes golems suboptimal for PC use, or do players just not use them because of the feat requirements?
DonDuckie |
I think many just ban Craft Construct if they ban Leadership. I really like the feat, so I allow it, but it hasn't been relevant yet.
It's not always that big an investment, the alchemical golem is priced similar to a +4 weapon (if memory serves), but it's not limited in usage by number of wielders. That's my favorite for mid levels - it has bombs :D
Craft construct and manuals are in the game because of ... wait for it ... LEGACY. They were in 3rd edition, so they are in PF.
I don't think the feat requirements are that bad, if you are building a crafter, then wondrous items and arms+armor are probably already on your mind.
Issac Daneil |
Golems do all share a weakness of limited mobility; the flight spells won't work on them, and I'm uncertain if they can benefit from worn items.
As for crafting; I've had a few players who WANTED to, but never reached high enough play. So, I believe the will for it IS out there. Even I've toyed with the notion, but I tend to prefer summoned and called outsiders instead.
Master_Crafter |
I actually played a campaign where my character was an exclusive crafter for the party. Ended up crafting constructs for municipalities to serve as messengers and guards. The messengers paid for themselves, so I even have a discount on the guard constructs.
We actually ended up affecting the timeline when my character crafted the Golden Army for the Lich villan before he even became the bad guy. They were all Brass Golems with the regeneration ability (unlimited mending), implanted intelligence (brain bioconstruct), and crafting feats. Long as there were a couple left they could salvage brains from fallen enemies and craft more of themselves.
Probably want the best idea. We never did fix that timeline.
Corvino |
Surely one limitation is going to be the time taken to construct them. A Stone Golem will take close to two months, while an Adamantine Golem takes near a year!
Many of them are also pretty much just bricks that can fight. Large or Huge bricks that can't follow you everywhere. If something just flies up out of range then your golem is a huge, animated paperweight. Decorative and expensive, but unable to do much.
The idea of having one guarding your party HQ is pretty cool though.
Ravingdork |
Flying golems are pretty easy:
Spell Storing (Sp) A shield guardian can store one spell of 4th level or lower that is cast into it by another creature. It “casts” this spell when commanded to do so or when a predefined situation arises. Once this spell is used, the shield guardian can store another spell (or the same spell again).
Immunity to Magic is treated like Spell Resistance with an infinite value.
Spell Resistance (Glossary)
A creature's spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities.
Ergo, your shield guardian golem can cast fly on itself.
Ravingdork |
I've made a character with a golem, though I've not yet had a chance to play him.
One of my friends had a dwarven cleric of Torag who built and used a Graven Guardian through much of Carrion Crown (thanks in no small part due to its great defenses and fast healing).
In v3.5 Eberron, another one of my friends loved playing artificers with a variety of homonculi and other minor construct servants.
Faelyn |
Way back in the good old days of 2E... I had an elven wizard with a stone golem. He saved that wizard's butt so many times from dragon's breath weapon and other AoEs. Our DM allotted me bonuses to my saves for hiding behind the golem (essentially Cover/Concealment).
I think golems can definitely have their usage, if you can swallow the cost.
Kimera757 |
Do your PCs actually build golems?
It seems to me that the Craft Construct feat and the golem manuals are just there to take up space. I know Craft Construct isn't PFS legal, but some golems seem like a pretty good (or at least interesting) investment.
With Craft Construct, an iron golem becomes affordable between level 14 and 16. The nearest approximation in terms of monster summoning is the elder earth elemental with summon monster VIII.
In comparison, the iron golem has +5 AC, +2 attack, +4 damage, 5 extra points of DR (though this DR is typed), a free-action Con-damage breath weapon, immunity to most magic, and is healed by fire damage.
On the downside, it loses earth glide, 5 feet of reach, and 39 hit points.
On the higher end, the adamantine golem is a steal at 350,000 gp. You are almost guaranteed to never run into a foe that can wield an adamantine vorpal weapon, and few creatures have access to miracle or wish, and fewer still will realize it can be used to kill the golem. That’s on top of its fast healing 10 and DR 15/epic. So your investment will have serious staying power.
The adamantine golem’s attack bonus of +41, 19-20 crit range, and 6d10+13 damage for both of its slam attacks is also impressive.
In addition, it’s 30 ft speed allows it to keep up with the party.
So, am I neglecting something that makes golems suboptimal for PC use, or do players just not use them because of the feat requirements?
350,000 gp is a serious chunk of change. It breaks the economy. A 16th-level character gets 315,000 gp. A 20th-level character gets 880,000 gp; 315,000 gp is more than a third of that. Compare to an earth elemental; it only costs a spell slot, more if you try to buff it (plus time cost) but ... that's it.
A golem is big and attention getting. The earth elemental is simply not there when you don't want it to be.
Rathendar |
One of the PCs in my group's Skull&Shackles game is doing just that as the game progresses actually. As long as the PC is willing to work with the DM on what final writeup is acceptable, it's no huge issue. (book 2 at this time, he's not up to true golems yet)
He does have an animated ballistae so he can shoot at the enemy ships while hiding behind cover on the approach. It's also half his caster level so when/if it's destroyed he can use make whole to zap it back without further gp expense. He adds more HD as his levels go up
Treefolk |
Ive tinkered with the idea of crafting constructs in game, the high cost is usually the killer of it though.
Lately ive been playing with a villain concept of a ghostly wizard who possesses his constructs.
Also in some of the more recent bestiaries clockwork creatures are appearing as fairly cost effective options versus golems.
Ravingdork |
If high cost is a problem, try animated objects. They are dirt cheap, easily replaceable, can be hidden as mundane objects, can be used as their mundane counterparts (an animated tool or armor is still a tool or armor, respectively), and quite powerful and versatile (especially the bigger ones).
Lincoln Hills |
Honestly, the cost is so high that it's hard to justify anybody ever building the darn things. I realize that's a conscious choice to avoid having PCs flood the world with killer robo... uh, golems... but it makes no sense for any spellcaster to bother unless they find some kind of really, really specific job that outsiders, undead, etc. just can't handle. Meanwhile, elsewhere, the druid has spent his 300K on a squad of awakened saber-toothed tigers in magical barding. So unfair.
Benchak the Nightstalker Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8 |
Alex Smith 908 |
Golems are always too expensive and too limited in what they can do. I already have the fighter/paladin/barbarian to deal damage and absorb hits, I don't need another one with fewer feats and abilities.
Other utility constructs like homonculus though see play all the time in my games. Same as a necromancer with utility undead.