True, and I never said otherwise. Generally, it's based on Theory that healing can't outpace damage.And you aren't doing some "dismissing" of your own?Am I? I never accused anyone of being a "theorycrafter" who doesn't play the game or who plays the game wrong.
All I did was to mention that no one's gaming experience has any more weight than that of anyone else.
No, it's based on math. It doesn't even require you to be an expert on the game in the least. You just have to have a fight at pretty much any level.
Here's an example. A hobgoblin slaps you with a greatsword for 2d6+4 points of damage. That's 5-16 points of damage on a successful hit. Meanwhile, at the same level your cleric casts cure light wounds to heal 1d8+1 points of damage. That's 2-7 points of damage, and you cannot critically hit with it without risking a miss on your touch, whereas the hobgoblin could crush for 10-32 points of damage.
Sure, it's based on "math" if you get to pick the numbers. But a Hobgoblin doesn't do "greatsword for 2d6+4".
He does= longsword +4 (1d8+2/19–20).
And 1d8+1 does not equal 2-7, it's 2-9. A 1st level cleric does 1d8+1. That's just about the same as 1d8+2.
Now, +4 to hit? A NPC Human Fighter 1 has AC of 20. "AC 20, touch 12, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +2 Dex, +2 shield)"
The Hobgoblin has to roll a 16+ to hit. Or, a 20% chance. Thus, healing for a 1st lvl cleric- right out of the book, healing a 1st level NPC fighter, vs a Hobgoblin right out of the book- heals four- FIVE times as much.
Yes, it's math. The math shows healing wins.
Now we are not on the same page. Healing does not win normally unless you REALLY optimize for it with certain builds The average healer will not compete with incoming damage. He might stave off death, but even a spec'd out healer is not going to normally match someone designed to do hit point damage. The power attacking giant and the evoker designed to do several hundred points of damage to multiple targets will even end up on top. This is not a theory.
If you stand behind this fighter(any frontline type) and cure him every time he gets hit you might pull even against monsters hit normally for their level, but the problem is that you run out of cure spells before they run out of weapon swings. <---This is assuming CR=party APL
If it is a monster that hits hard for its level the healing will not keep up, and if there is more than one of these monsters hitting more than one party member you can't heal everyone without channeling and that does not keep up. <--This is not accounting for crits or abnormally low rolls and neither is the above paragraph.
Now to be clear are you saying that some melee brute such as a giant will not be able to out damage a cure spell, or are you saying only saying you think they can keep someone up long enough to matter?
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Here is one of my Real Life experiences with my cleric's healing not keeping up with damage. Keep in mind, this was my first PF character, and I didn't know the rules for PF very well, so I was far from optimized.
First level, we are fighting around 3 different humans[I think, it was a while ago], and the fighter in the group drops in one hit, along with a few others getting damaged. So, I used Channel Energy to heal everyone, and the fighter gets back up [and almost to full]. So, he stands up as a full-round action[houseruled to not provoke], and then the next turn, he gets dropped even further then the last turn. So rinse, repeat, [and I did throw a CLW or two at him IIRC] a few rounds later he was 1 point away from death, because I was combat-healing somebody who could only do frontline melee fighting. The healing I was doing was not keeping up with the damage, and was merely prolonging the fight.
Think of it this way, OP. Does a doctor just treat ailments that have already happened, or does he provide preventative care as well? You'd argue that they're both important things to take care of and you'd be right, but treating ailments in a reactive way is inferior to ensuring they don't occur in the first place. In a way, buffing is the same thing as healing.
Think of your shield of faith or your heroism as preventative care rather than suturing a wound.
I prefer playing healers too. Buffing is just part of the job.
Here is one of my Real Life experiences with my cleric's healing not keeping up with damage. Keep in mind, this was my first PF character, and I didn't know the rules for PF very well, so I was far from optimized.
First level, we are fighting around 3 different humans[I think, it was a while ago], and the fighter in the group drops in one hit, along with a few others getting damaged. So, I used Channel Energy to heal everyone, and the fighter gets back up [and almost to full]. So, he stands up as a full-round action[houseruled to not provoke], and then the next turn, he gets dropped even further then the last turn. So rinse, repeat, [and I did throw a CLW or two at him IIRC] a few rounds later he was 1 point away from death, because I was combat-healing somebody who could only do frontline melee fighting. The healing I was doing was not keeping up with the damage, and was merely prolonging the fight.
Good example. But what would have happened if you had not healed him?
Would they not have attacked others next? or finished off the Fighter? Did the other members of the party have better AC than the fighter? More HP?
Did you have an effective attack which would have dropped the foes, instead?
What ended up happening?
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Here is one of my Real Life experiences with my cleric's healing not keeping up with damage. Keep in mind, this was my first PF character, and I didn't know the rules for PF very well, so I was far from optimized.
First level, we are fighting around 3 different humans[I think, it was a while ago], and the fighter in the group drops in one hit, along with a few others getting damaged. So, I used Channel Energy to heal everyone, and the fighter gets back up [and almost to full]. So, he stands up as a full-round action[houseruled to not provoke], and then the next turn, he gets dropped even further then the last turn. So rinse, repeat, [and I did throw a CLW or two at him IIRC] a few rounds later he was 1 point away from death, because I was combat-healing somebody who could only do frontline melee fighting. The healing I was doing was not keeping up with the damage, and was merely prolonging the fight.
Good example. But what would have happened if you had not healed him?
Would they not have attacked others next? or finished off the Fighter? Did the other members of the party have better AC than the fighter? More HP?
Did you have an effective attack which would have dropped the foes, instead?
What ended up happening?
Well, I'm not entirely sure, as my memory for this isn't the best [It was, again, my first character]
The enemies would almost certainly attacked others, as I know how my GM would have run them, but the fighter wasn't exactly huge on optimization himself IIRC, and I think he had an AC of 15 or 16. I had a 17 AC at first level, and should have had 11 HP. What ended up happening was I got up into melee with only 1 or 2 CLW's and maybe a channel left, and I started pounding away with my morningstar. They had trouble hitting me, as they didn't have a huge attack bonus, and I think that I helped the other frontliners[there were at least 2] by flanking, and we managed to get them down to where they surrendered.
As to what would have happened if I hadn't healed, I can only answer that through theorycraft, as I had healed. Probably would have cast magic weapon, waded into melee, and started helping out with flanking and doing bits of damage. Only would have been a +3[1d8+3] attack, but with flanking, I think the fight would have been shortened significantly. Still would have channeled once or twice, because the party did need some topping off, but the fight would have been much less resource intensive.
People can play however they'd like. Most of the folks I play with (though certainly not all) prefer their PCs to survive rather than die though. If another player is willing to sacrifice their turn to save a PC that's very much appreciated. If they let another PC die so they can have a shot at glory taking down some random mook that probably won't be appreciated...at least not by the player of the dead PC...
Anyhow, I think everybody here (or close) agrees that emergency healing is great to have. People just can't quite agree on what constitutes an emergency. That will probably come down to a battle of caution vs confidence and how risk averse the players in question are.
@Thomas Long 175 - I usually go for much higher defenses than an AC19 Barbarian. Sometimes the dice seem to be against me though. That’s when I like to have some healing handy. Other times a DM decides, “I WILL hurt you no matter what your defenses are!!! The PCs MUST be in danger of death in every fight!!!” Then you get stuff like what we have in my “Healing is Handy” thread. The DM cranks up the challenge, the players crank up the defenses, and the game comes to a standstill (I guess maybe it is a matter of trust - or lack thereof)
The enemies would almost certainly attacked others, as I know how my GM would have run them, but the fighter wasn't exactly huge on optimization himself IIRC, and I think he had an AC of 15 or 16. I had a 17 AC at first level, and should have had 11 HP. What ended up happening was I got up into melee with only 1 or 2 CLW's and maybe a channel left, and I started pounding away with my morningstar. They had trouble hitting me, as they didn't have a huge attack bonus, and I think that I helped the other frontliners[there were at least 2] by flanking, and we managed to get them down to where they surrendered.
As to what would have happened if I hadn't healed, I can only answer that through theorycraft, as I had healed. Probably would have cast magic weapon, waded into melee, and started helping out with flanking and doing bits of damage. Only would have been a +3[1d8+3] attack, but with flanking, I think the fight would have been shortened significantly. Still would have channeled once or twice, because the party did need some topping off, but the fight would have been much less resource intensive.
Well this is largely a matter of luck and a little bit poor design. I mean, even tho the Fighter having a AC of just 16 isn't terrible, the fact that they hit him time after time and missed you when your AC was only 1 higher says a lot about luck.
That's not a bad attack, decent for a cleric, but who would you have been flanking with? And would the fighter player been having fun while he bled out and you guys killed the bad guys?
So yeah, in this one battle, you're right- due to bad luck healing wasn't helpful. It can happen.
Design Manager
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Anyhow, I think everybody here (or close) agrees that emergency healing is great to have. People just can't quite agree on what constitutes an emergency. That will probably come down to a battle of caution vs confidence and how risk averse the players in question are.
Pretty much right on here. I think everyone is on the same page that sometimes emergency healing is called for in combat; but what constitutes an emergency is going to vary from group to group.
I generally agree with the idea that in combat healing is usually less efficient than other options; but I've also been in an encounter where we would certainly have lost if the cleric hadn't been spamming Channel Energy round after round to keep us (more or less) on our feet against a superior force of advanced skeletons who likely would not have been dropped before half the party was murdered if the same channels were used offensively.
Basically, healing has a time and a place, and occasionally that place is going to turn out to be in combat. But it's generally not a wise idea to put all of your eggs in the healing basket as there's several other tools available that will often prove to be more effective.
The thing with healing is it situational. It's needed but only when it's needed. So best to make sure you can do something else beside healing. I think that's what gets people rallying against healers.
I know if was to play a healer I'd make sure I was useful in other ways by going with higher str off the start and lower Wisdom that I raise with level stat increases. That way I can contribute in combat as flanker, dishing out decent damage. Nothing spectacular but pretty good if I buff up first.
If we're not all on the same page I think we're at least in the same book. That said, I have formed the opinion that it might be sort of funny to try to "break the game" with healing. In the right AP I bet I could get the right DM to make a complaint like, "I can never kill anybody because of your overpowered healing!"
I've inflicted overpowered damage. I've had an overpowered AC. Once in a while I've even used overpowered DCs. We probably all have at one time or another. "Overpowered healing" might be a new concept though.
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Design Manager
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If we're not all on the same page I think we're at least in the same book. That said, I have formed the opinion that it might be sort of funny to try to "break the game" with healing. In the right AP I bet I could get the right DM to make a complaint like, "I can never kill anybody because of your overpowered healing!"
I've inflicted overpowered damage. I've had an overpowered AC. Once in a while I've even used overpowered DCs. We probably all have at one time or another. "Overpowered healing" might be a new concept though.
I think Life Oracles channeling as a move action with all kinds of other damage mitigation, transfer, and recovery abilities up is the only time I've ever seen this complaint.
Wait...
Once with a Vitalist, but it was specifically because the GM didn't really grasp the concept of effective in combat healing. He expected the healing to be insufficient and scale too slowly, so when a class did it well he leapt to the conclusion that it must be broken.
Basically, any time I've seen healing actually keep apace with damage it's been accompanied by GMs who feel like the buld must be broken because their party isn't getting close to death like they've come to anticipate. I think expending limited resources to keep your party from dropping into the red is something that's inherently pretty hard to actually break, unless you've got like crazy immediate actions that bounce the damage back at the enemy.
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Life link combined with boots of the earth, fey foundling, and fast healer might be what your looking for in regards to op healing. example.
