Natural attacks don't get Iteratives, but you could use a 1h weapon in 1 hand, get +6/+1 from that, and than make a secondary attack with your free claw, for BAB -5.
Alternatively, you could invest in something like armor spikes, attack at +6/+1 with Armor spikes, than attack with both claws at BAB -5
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HERE are the Universal Monster Rules for Natural Attacks. As Jayder22 pointed out, you don't gain iterative attacks with Natural Weapons.
Relevant rules:
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type
Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls.
From: Paizo.com
Natural attacks do not get iteratives, but in return, you can use as many of these natural weapons as you want during a full attack (Well, 1 per limb limit), and they all hit at full BAB (if they are primary).
As a barbarian, secondary natural attacks (or mixing primary ones with manufactured weapons, making them secondary) are not really worth it. This is because strength and power attack bonuses are halved on secondary natural attacks. And that is all barbarians have to offer for extra damage really. It would be a different story if you were a ranger, rogue, paladin , or fighter though (they all have ways of adding static bonuses to each hit that would not be affected by the difference)
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At this very moment they're about equal. Two hits at full str and full BAB with claws, or two hits at 1.5x str with one being full BAB and the other at -5 for the two-hander. If you move on your turn the two-hander is better with the single attack. The two-hander might do more damage if both attacks hit, but you're more likely to get both claws to hit, which is more than one two-hander hit.
Long term, you'll almost definitely end up using a two-handed weapon, unless you went out of your way to get at least 3 primary natural attacks. Even then, building for natural attacks is a specific thing that takes a good deal of investment to make it competitive with a two-handed weapon.
Besides using your claws only and using your two-hander only you have additional options:
- Use a weapon not wielded in the hands (armor spikes, dwarven boulder helmet etc) and your claws. By doing so the claws become secondary (-5 to hit and half strength to damage)
- Get more natural attacks, for example via rage powers, to have more attacks.
- Combine both of the above.
Example: Wear armor with armor spikes and get the animal fury rage power for a bite attack.
You can then use the spikes to make your normal attacks at +6/+1 (pure BAB) and the three natural attacks at +1/+1/+1 (again pure BAB) and half strength to damage.
That way you have less damage per attack than with the two-hander but you have 5 attacks instead of only 2.
If you add the multiattack feat (ask your GM about it because your natural weapons are not permanent) those are only at -2 not -5 and so would be at +4/+4/+4 (pure BAB)
As far as I know that only means that you only have 1 main- and 1 of-hand for two-weapon fighting issues. Not that you really need your appendage called hand.
For the natural attacks you neither need the main-hand nor the off-hand. And the spikes do not use the limb used by the natural attacks because you can attack with the spikes on your body, knee or whatever.
I'm curious about the difference in language between the Lesser Beast Totem and Animal Fury rage powers.
Beast Totem, Lesser
While raging, the barbarian gains two claw attacks. These attacks are considered primary attacks and are made at the barbarian’s full base attack bonus. The claws deal 1d6 points of slashing damage (1d4 if Small) plus the barbarian’s Strength modifier.
Animal Fury
While raging, the barbarian gains a bite attack. If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at the barbarian's full base attack bonus –5. If the bite hits, it deals 1d4 points of damage (assuming the barbarian is Medium; 1d3 points of damage if Small) plus half the barbarian's Strength modifier. A barbarian can make a bite attack as part of the action to maintain or break free from a grapple. This attack is resolved before the grapple check is made. If the bite attack hits, any grapple checks made by the barbarian against the target this round are at a +2 bonus.
The Beast Totem claw attacks are not called natural attacks, and does not mention limitations on their use. Animal Fury doesn't call the bite attack a natural attack, but does spell out the same limitation as a natural attack.
The way I see it right now, RAW, is if the barbarian has a hand free to use as a claw they can make a full BAB attack with it and not incur the -5 penalty if they're also attacking with a weapon.
Was this better defined or cleared up somewhere?
Claws are always natural weapons. They might have failed to put that in the text, but that doesn't give the right to forgo common sense.
They even mention that the claws are primary attacks (language only used when referring to natural attacks). And the general rules for natural attacks are as follows:
Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. The natural attacks by size table lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.
Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature's description.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do. See the natural attacks by size table for typical damage values for natural attacks by creature size.
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Doesn't the two-weapon-fighting with a two-handed weapon and armour spikes FAQ, mean that you need a hand to attack with armour spikes?
So you can't use armour spikes and two claw attacks at the same time?
Two-Weapon Fighting rules do not apply when combining natural attacks with manufactured weapons.
A Tengu Monk can even perform a bewildering array of Kick/Kick/Claw/Claw/Bite, at -2/-2/-5/-5/-5.
Claws are always natural weapons. They might have failed to put that in the text, but that doesn't give the right to forgo common sense.
They even mention that the claws are primary attacks (language only used when referring to natural attacks). And the general rules for natural attacks are as follows:
...Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. The natural attacks by size table lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.
Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature's description.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes
I wish they had spelled this out more clearly in the text of the applicable rage powers. Hell, if it just said somewhere "this is a natural attack" it would have clued me in to look them up.
I read the description in a vacuum and figured it was an extra attack while raging, and that "primary" just went along with the "full BAB" statement.
My barbarian was using a two-handed weapon, making an attack with it, then letting go with one hand as a free action to make one claw attack. Is this still possible, but with a -5 penalty to the attack roll?
My barbarian was using a two-handed weapon, making an attack with it, then letting go with one hand as a free action to make one claw attack. Is this still possible, but with a -5 penalty to the attack roll?No. You already used that limb to make an attack that round.
Is that a natural attack specific rule or does it also apply to, for example, dual wielding a greatsword and a spiked gauntlet?
Also, now that I've looked at the other rage powers the idea of an extra 1d6 attack every round starting at 2nd level seems quite unbalanced. Especially compared to things like Lesser Elemental Rage. I probably should have read past Beast Totem's armor and pounce before picking my first rage power.
Why would you need a real hand (as in the limb) to attack with the spikes on your breastplate? It is just that you can't wield more thaan two hands full of weapons for TWF.
You could even TWF using armor spikes and a boulder helmet while attacking with two claws. You have one main hand and one off hand attack when TWF. But natural attacks have nothing to do with TWF.
In order to attack with a weapon, you need 2 things; enough hands to wield it and an attack with which to swing it. Hands are straight-forward; all one-handed weapons require at least 1 hand, all 2-h weapons require at least 2 hands, most light weapons require at least 1 hand and some require none at all. An attack with which to swing it is provided by iterative attacks and off-hand attacks. Iteratives are provided by BAB; you get 1 to start and 1 more at 6 BAB and every 5 past that (6/11/16). You get 1 off-hand attack by default and can get more by using appropriate feats (ITWF/GTWF) or using class abilities that replicate those feats (Flurry), but making a 2-h attack subsumes your next potential off-hand attack if you have one (though, you don't need to have one to make a 2-h attack), in addition to an iterative attack (essentially, a 2-h weapon uses both a main-hand attack and an off-hand attack at the same time).
You can't TWF with Greatsword/Armor Spikes because, while Armor Spikes don't require any hands, they still require an off-hand attack and the Greatsword eats your off-hand attack(s) even when you make main-hand attacks with it.
Natural Attacks run up against a similar, but ultimately different barrier because you forego any natural attacks associated with a particular limb if you make a weapon attack using that limb. So, where you can't "let go" of your Greatsword and make an off-hand attack with a Spiked Gauntlet because the Greatsword ate your next potential off-hand attack, you can't "let go" of your Greatsword and make a natural Claw attack because making your Greatsword attack "disabled" your Claw for the duration of this full-attack in compliance with Natural Weapon rules. In fact, you could make a followup iterative attack with a Spiked Gauntlet by making your full-BAB attack with the Greatsword followed by your BAB-5 attack with a Spiked Gauntlet; that is completely legal. But you can't do this with a Claw because the Claw is "all or nothing" and...
That was a big help. My barbarian hasn't gotten to having a second iterative attack yet but I had been assuming that if I wanted to use one of them on the spiked gauntlet I would be taking penalties for two weapon fighting. I'm actually using a glaive and being able to make attacks at different ranges is valuable to me. (Also I don't use armor spikes because I think they're silly)
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Doesn't the two-weapon-fighting with a two-handed weapon and armour spikes FAQ, mean that you need a hand to attack with armour spikes?
So you can't use armour spikes and two claw attacks at the same time?Two-Weapon Fighting rules do not apply when combining natural attacks with manufactured weapons.
A Tengu Monk can even perform a bewildering array of Kick/Kick/Claw/Claw/Bite, at -2/-2/-5/-5/-5.
A monk can't use natural attacks when flurrying? So you can't do that as a Tengu Monk?
And even though the Two-Weapon Fighting rules do not apply, you still need a free hand to make the armour spike attack right? And you don't have a free hand if you attack with both your claws?
I was replying to your statement about Two-Weapon Fighting, not Flurry of Blows. A Tengu Monk can indeed Kick/Kick/Claw/Claw/Bite, just as well as a Tengu Fighter, or a Tengu Wizard.
You only need a free hand if you are wielding something that requires a free hand. Armor Spikes do not. You are misinterpreting the Armor Spikes FAQ. The FAQ is referring to off-hand attacks. You do not have an off-hand attack available if you are already wielding a two-handed weapon. Natural attacks have no bearing on that ruling.
Trust me in this. These discussions have gone on for years, peaking around the time of that FAQ. You can search for clarifications if you wish.
If you had 3+ natural weapons, I'd say beefing up your claws with AoMF would be a good possibility but with only 2... your only benefit is you have a decent weapon to fall back on if you're ever disarmed or otherwise deprived of your sword. Stick with your sword and just work towards Greater Beast Totem to get your Pounce. The claws are a peripheral benefit without at least one other natural weapon.
Here's a couple quick add-on questions:
1) If I had a witch's prehensile hair, could I use it to deliver a claw attack? I think I saw a thread recently asking if the claws have to be tied to the hands, but I'm wondering if the language of Prehensile Hair automatically precludes that anyway.
2) Is it possible to use Prehensile Hair to help wield a two-handed weapon, freeing up the other hand for claw?
EDIT: Number 2 seems to be answered in the Prehensile Hair description already. Oops, disregard.
OK, there's plenty of possibilities. The question is, which is the most effective?
Without iteratives, before level 6, my barbarian's damage came from a single two-handed 1.5 strength power attack. While in rage though, 2 claw attacks at full BAB were a slightly better option. I dealt a bit more damage and had two attack rolls, which improved my chances to hit.
Now, at level 6, with 2 iteratives at +6/+1 it's a different matter. I get two two-handed power attacks with 1.5 times my strength. That is an impressive amount of damage! My Attack bonus is +15/+10 witch is still a good chance to hit. I've calculated a combined average damage of 47.
This, in my opinion, is now far better than the claws, which attack at +14/+14 with a combined average damage of 31
Other options, with armor spikes and natural attacks at half strength and -5 attack just don't seem competitive and I haven't seen anyone using them out there.
Economically, I find that upgrading a full set of weapons (claws, armor spikes, great sword) is impossible. Furthermore, upgrading claws is somewhat limited. To start with, you can't get "masterwork claws" for 300 gp but have to save up for the bracers of mighty fists at 4000gp. Investing in manufactured weapons seems more effective.
That sums up why I have not played a pounce barbarian, yet. If you want to use a two-handed weapon the beast totem line is not worth it until you get pounce.
Right now you'd be better off with animal fury instead of beast totem, lesser. That way you could make your iteratives with the two-handed weapon and do the bite in addition to that.
Looks like I *am* going to pick up the prehensile hair hex.
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Natural attacks don't get Iteratives, but you could use a 1h weapon in 1 hand, get +6/+1 from that, and than make a secondary attack with your free claw, for BAB -5.
Alternatively, you could invest in something like armor spikes, attack at +6/+1 with Armor spikes, than attack with both claws at BAB -5
In this example wouldn't the manufactured weapon attack rolls be made at +4/-1?
I'm not sure where it is on the PRD (it's not in the Universal Monster Rules section), but in my Core Rulebook on page 182 under Natural Attacks in the 3rd paragraph it says the following;
"You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack"...
"In addition all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack (See Pathfinder RPG Beastiary) can reduce these penalties."
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I don't see that line at all; searched for the first few words on the whole combat page and even the whole PRD. Is it an old version of the CRB that you have?
It's the fourth printing from September 2010. I have no idea if it's been errata'd or not. I'll poke around, but I didn't see it on the PRD either.
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Here it is from the Paizo site. But the wording has changed a bit - but it's significant:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
They've dropped the part about your manufactured weapons/unarmed strikes being treated as if TWFing. They leave in reference to the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for some reason.