invisible sneak attack

[jimibones83]

If im invisible and take a full attack action, does every attack qualify for sneak attack or is it just the first one?

[Scavion]

Regular invisibility? No, only the first one.

Greater Invisibility would grant it on each one.

[jimibones83]

Ok so my vanishing trick from ninja isn't quite as valuable as my GM's been letting me get away with. I'll have to bring this to his attention

[Scavion]

jimibones83 wrote:

Ok so my vanishing trick from ninja isn't quite as valuable as my GM's been letting me get away with. I'll have to bring this to his attention

Right, it is useful to get into position with however.

[wraithstrike]

Just the first one.

[maouse]

Vanishing Move (Su): When you wish to not be seen, you aren't. As a swift action, you can make yourself invisible until the end of your turn. This effect ends if you do anything other than move. If you expend one use of mythic power when using this ability, it instead acts as .greater invisibility using double your tier as your caster level.

Turns the regular invisibility into greater for 1 MP. A good upgrade for any Rogue / Ninja / sneak attacker.

[Axl]

The ninja's vanishing trick is like the Invisibility spell.

The Invisibility spell explicitly drops if you make an offensive action. Therefore an attacker with Invisibility spell or vanishing trick will deny Dex bonus to AC on the first attack of a full attack. (The attacker will also gain +2 to attack on that attack.) However after that first attack, the spell/trick dissipates. On subsequent attacks of the full attack, the defender retains Dex bonus to AC.

[Zhayne]

Note that there is an Advanced Ninja Trick that does replicate greater invisibility.

[Lifat]

Yes. And do note that using vanishing trick is mostly meant for getting into position (flanking). At least that is the most efficient use in my opinion.

[Apocalypso]

If you have gotten into flanking position using Vanish-- every attack is a sneak attack.

If you are going *before* your opponent in the first round, he is flat-footed, and every attack is a sneak attack. Invest in initiative and going first.

[Cheapy]

Huh.

I did not expect this to be resolved so quickly, with jimibones83 taking the answer so well. Nothing against ya Jimi, but usually when newish posters make a thread on this topic, things are going to get nasty fast. Major props!

I was all ready to post this link, so I'll post it anyways: Ex-Member of the Pathfinder Design Team, the Esteemed Sean K. Reynolds explaining this. (And if you read the other posts, you'll see why I thought this might get nasty :))

[Lifat]

Apocalypso wrote:

If you have gotten into flanking position using Vanish-- every attack is a sneak attack.

If you are going *before* your opponent in the first round, he is flat-footed, and every attack is a sneak attack. Invest in initiative and going first.

Unless you are somehow next to the enemy when combat starts (not normal unless you invisibly sneak up on them), then you still get only 1 attack in on the enemy in the first round (if you go first). Of course if you have an ability like pounce then my statement is false.

[Apocalypso]

I usually did it as:

1st round: ranged sneak attack, vanish, move into flanking

2nd round: full round sneak attack

[Rub-Eta]

If invisibility is your only source to sneak attack, then yes. Only the first attack would add sneak attack damage, since you're not invisible after the first.

However, don't underestimate vanish. To me, it's a no-brain pick for any ninja. I'm sure there's someone who'll protest though. *starts looking for that someone*

[jimibones83]

Cheapy wrote:

Huh.

I did not expect this to be resolved so quickly, with jimibones83 taking the answer so well. Nothing against ya Jimi, but usually when newish posters make a thread on this topic, things are going to get nasty fast. Major props!

I was all ready to post this link, so I'll post it anyways: Ex-Member of the Pathfinder Design Team, the Esteemed Sean K. Reynolds explaining this. (And if you read the other posts, you'll see why I thought this might get nasty :))

id rather understand the truth than get my way, its just how i am. that said, after i thought about it i realized i was probably using it wrong, so i was expecting the answer i got.

ive actually been playing 3.5 since it came out though. i switched to pf last year. if i were gm'ing i would have immediately noticed the error in what was being done, but rarely getting to play a pc, i was excited and overlooked it. i just wanted to verify before i notified the gm

[jimibones83]

Apocalypso wrote:

I usually did it as:

1st round: ranged sneak attack, vanish, move into flanking

2nd round: full round sneak attack

im winning initiative like 80% of the time, and often stealth to range, so i usually

surprise round: charge as standard and sneak attack their flat footed

round 1: vanish, maneuver to allow the next guy to give me flanking, sneak attack vs their flat footed

round 2: sneak attack from flanking

im dual wielding wakizashi's so i get 2 attacks, so in round 1 the second attack is not suppose to be vs their flat footed, which i was accidentally getting by the gm

[Blakmane]

As an aside, you could use vanish after your charge in the surprise round to gain a little bit of survivability. Your opponent will know what square you are in (as you would have no way of moving out of it after charging) but you'd be getting a sweet 50% concealment. If the opponent tried to move away you could smack him with a sneak attacked AOO and then do the vanish trick in round 1 again just like you described.

[jimibones83]

i get both my surprise round and my turn on initiative before a monster gets to go most of the time

[maouse]

Blakmane wrote:

As an aside, you could use vanish after your charge in the surprise round to gain a little bit of survivability. Your opponent will know what square you are in (as you would have no way of moving out of it after charging) but you'd be getting a sweet 50% concealment. If the opponent tried to move away you could smack him with a sneak attacked AOO and then do the vanish trick in round 1 again just like you described.

Or... if you vanish then move, they have to find your square all over again first before they get the 50% concealment applied... which is better IMHO. (its only a DC 20 perception, but low perception monsters can miss this early on pretty easily, which results in a 100% miss chance as they hit a different square)

[Bandw2]

spring attack can make the vanish thing interesting at charge ranges.

[Blakmane]

maouse wrote:

Or... if you vanish then move, they have to find your square all over again first before they get the 50% concealment applied... which is better IMHO. (its only a DC 20 perception, but low perception monsters can miss this early on pretty easily, which results in a 100% miss chance as they hit a different square)

He can't vanish and then move if he wants to make an attack in the suprise round. The charge would cancel his invis.

Jimi:

Opponents are flat footed against you until they have made an action in combat as noted here. If you are beating their initiative in the round after the suprise round you can make all of your attacks with sneak attacks without needing to go invisible at all. You could then tack on a vanish at the end of that with a 5ft step to set up your next round.

[Bandw2]

actually spring attack and vanish seem... pretty good for survival.

[maouse]

Bandw2 wrote:

actually spring attack and vanish seem... pretty good for survival.

Yep, a moving invisible rogue is a lot more trouble than a stationary one... (and greater invisibility is solid if they don't have see invisible or some sense that sees you)

[jimibones83]

@Blakmane that's right I misspoke. I don't use the vanishing trick on round 1 unless the have already went, then I use it to avoid AoO while i maneuver and to get sneak attack

[Lifat]

jimibones83 wrote:

@Blakmane that's right I misspoke. I don't use the vanishing trick on round 1 unless the have already went, then I use it to avoid AoO while i maneuver and to get sneak attack

Unless the enemy has acted they are considered flat-footed and are thus not allowed attacks of opportunity due to movement (unless they have combat reflexes)...

So if you win initiative and have a surprise round, you could go:

Surprise round: Charge - Sneak Attack

1st round: Full round with sneak attack, vanish, 5 foot step.

2nd round: Depends on the size of the enemy. If medium, another 5 foot step should be plenty to setup for flanking. Otherwise move into position and sneak attack once.

3rd round: ?????

4th round: Profit.