Goblin Squad Member
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I think you're forcing a square peg into a wall.
Pathfinder has lycanthropes, but as I said in my earlier post (which you kind of ignored) they're not intended to be playable. They can be playable. Of course, I could play a fire giant with enough rule tweaks and special scenario building. However, the game isn't balanced around me playing a fire giant. It's balanced around me playing bog standard adventurers.
Vampirism and Lycanthropy are supposed to be bad things to contract in Pathfinder. They're not supposed to be boons. The rules spell that out rather plainly. They fall into the realm of Drow Nobles (which are also not intended to be playable). That's the reason normal Drow exist. It's the reason Skinwalkers exist for those wanting to play lycanthropes. It's the reason Dhampir exist for those wanting to play vampires.
I've played a Dhampir. I'd like to play a Skinwalker, but haven't had the chance due to how new they are in the RPG rules.
Yet, you're ignoring the options that Pathfinder has for people wanting to play these concepts and still keep their characters balanced along the same track as everyone else.
And I'm not joking about guns and airships. I want an airship. Badly. They're just awesome. Period.
However, I'm not begging the devs for airships. Mainly, what the heck would that do to the game? I'd be immune to any ground attackers and could bypass roadblocks and blockades. I could rain down fiery death from above (because the class I really want is Alchemist). There are tons of balance problems with adding airships in the current game. Not to mention that they're stupidly rare.
I honestly don't care about Sparkles MacAngstypants the vampire and Shaggy MacDreamhunk the werewolf. I care about game balance. I care about sticking with Pathfinder. And, Pathfinder already has solutions for you to play balanced versions of what you want.
#TeamBuffy
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Goblin Squad Member
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I suppose it's a difference of opinion on how strictly that should be interpreted in terms of an MMO.
We already have a mark that brings us back from the dead repeatedly. No matter our alignment. No matter who we worship. No matter if we raise undead or not (even though the God responsible for our mark abhors undead.)
It's easily enough explained that werewolves marked by Pharasma can maintain more self control because the magic interacts kind of funkily.
Fun > Lore. Find what's fun and then find a way to make the lore fit it. Skinwalkers are ugly as heck and are going to appeal more to the furry crowd than the dark fantasy crowd.
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It is this interesting world where werewolves and undead are pretty much Evil....god of good aligned werewolves...It's just the fact that either the races are very restrictive or very against what they're supposed to be (soulless undead, brutal monsters...)...god of good aligned werewolves...
Sorry, but that's not the god of good-aligned werewolves. She's the god of good-aligned lycanthropes (like, y'know, werebears*). She also has half-celestial werewolves, but you can be a half-celestial illithid and you'll still be good just because you're half-celestial.
Like I said, werewolves are essentially always evil. Sure, there's the one-in-a-million exception. That is presented because even Paizo is willing to let a GM include one if he wants. Basically, they're leaving the remote option open for a freak of nature or two.
PFO is a canon product, however, to a very limited degree. That's why setting-breaking company and player names aren't being allowed.
The simple fact is that werewolves as a race are universally evil. You might as well let people play demons—there's really the same chance of finding a redeemed one. Hell, undead have a similar likelihood—I recall reading of a neutral mummy in one adventure. It can happen—there's a brainy goblin in one comic, so I'm pretty sure options are always open.
But are we gonna open the doors for ghoul and vampire PCs? Are we gonna let players play succubi and hezrous, and daemons and qlippoth? People love Lovecraft, too. People love demons and half-demons, too.
Just because it can exist doesn't mean it should.
*Heh. Carewerebears.
Fun > Lore.
I guess that's where we part ways. When you abandon the cogent feel of the lore just so some periphery fandoms can have "fun", you lose something.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...god of good aligned werewolves...Sorry, but that's not the god of good-aligned werewolves. She's the god of good-aligned lycanthropes (like, y'know, werebears*). She also has half-celestial werewolves, but you can be a half-celestial illithid and you'll still be good just because you're half-celestial.
I wasn't aware celestial blood restricted you to the good alignment.
Now we're just being silly.
First, an aasimar is not a half-celestial. It really, really isn't. You could at least dig up one of the half-celestial villains I'm sure existed—or at least mention Nualia.
Second, I didn't say it did. I was speaking hyperbolically because the celestial and half-celestial templates tend to be catch-all "copouts"—meaning you can be anything and still be a paragon of goodness if you get the template. Celestial red dragon, celestial gnome...it's nuts.
Y'know what? I suppose this works fine with the lore. Celestial vampires and celestial werewolves can make this work perfectly. And they will sparkle naturally! Let's do it.
I'm actually not kidding, by the way. I would rather the werewolves and vampires just be given Mark of Pharasma-related "Aeonic" Templates to give them full free will than have actual werewolves and vampires running around like the eighth and ninth Core Races.
Sure, they won't really be "real" lycanthropes and vampires, but at least this way it doesn't stretch any lore.
Mind you, I still think it's silly pandaren pandering.
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Goblin Squad Member
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First, an aasimar is not a half-celestial.
Aasimars are humans with a significant amount of celestial or other good outsider blood in their ancestry.
It's a significant amount of celestial or other good outsider in their ancestry.
There is also sub templates for part angel, part archons etc. none of which have additional alignment restrictions.
Celestial / any good aligned outsider has a typical alignment of good, but typically being good doesn't seem strong enough to me if werewolves are ALWAYS evil by nature because it's not as strong as a restriction.
It suggests to me that they can fight their nature.
If there was more to go on I would source it but this is what you get when you search for Paizo products that tell us about werewolves.
With that little lore on werewolves in the setting, an advisory that players are better off playing natural werewolves and a wiki-source listing them as evil in contradiction of another wiki-source that talks about good-aligned werewolves (As well as Paizo materials because I verified the existence of that god and her lycanthropic worshipers in the Chronicles of the Righteous) doesn't seem strong enough to me to suggest Paizo can't work with it to allow Pharasma marked werewolves with more self control that can be anywhere on the chaotic specturm.
There is less lore on werewolves than the River Kingdoms themselves. Plenty of room for Paizo to adapt it to their needs.
PS. My suggestion makes werewolves tend toward evil as well. Notice I didn't say anything about killing on Full Moon Nights removing the ALIGNMENT changes. ;)
It's a significant amount of celestial or other good outsider in their ancestry.
Look at half-celestial. Then at aasimar. One of them has a tiny halo. The other has wings, DR, and can blast holy lasers. Aasimars are really not half-celestials. They are not even close.
Also, again, I never said all half-celestials had to be good. You've somehow decided that that's what this argument is about. Half-celestials can very easily be evil—they are only half celestial. If we were talking about half-lycanthropes and Eberron's shifters, that'd be one thing.
But we are not. We are talking about full-blooded lycanthropes. They are not very far from demons on the "Varied alignment" meter. I'd put them roughly between goblins/morlocks and outright fiends. I've already acknowledged that they can be good, but so can demons, drow, driders, derro, devils, qlippoth, proteans, chromatic dragons, undead, and pterodactyls.
I also notice we've moved away from vampires, which are the real dealbreaker here. Have you decided that they're unworkable, or are we making our way back there?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I honestly just don't care about them. They are about as appealing to me as elves in formats that force them to not have facial hair and don't offer any hairstyles for them cut shorter than the shoulders.
I'll let someone else argue vampires. I'm here for the werewolves.
Also aren't all lycanthropes and werewolves full blooded by nature? I thought halfblooded lyanthropes were skinwalkers.
Remember due to the nature of lycanthropy you can be a full blooded human, or a half elf, or whatever have you and still be a full blooded lycanthrope.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmmmm. Actually I found a Paizo book on lycanthropy called "Blood of The Moon." It mainly went on about different forms of half lycanthropes however I found this part pretty interesting:
Oracles dedicated to the mystery of the moon tell that the key to unlocking the truest potential of lycanthropy can be found within strict adherence to the laws of the lunar cycle and the natural world.
That does give some lore basis the werewolf faction powers and greater control with training.
The whole book is pretty sparse on information IMO but I would note I searched for alignment restrictions and could find none. It said the typical alignment for werewolf-kin was CE but it also catered all their abilities toward monks which I found pretty funny.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While I think Dhampir could end up as a pretty popular race I think if you implement skinwalkers you might as well just get rid of all the options other then Fanglords AKA Weretiger-Kin and make sure you have a good selection of tails and cat ears because nobody wanting to play an actual lycanthrope will be interested in that race. The furries on the other hand will be quite happy.
To illustrate my point:
This was one of the most loved races by most people I talked to in DF1.
When they made all the races the same size for Unholy Wars and changed it to this, it was one of thee top complained about differences between DF1 and DFUW.
Sometimes close enough just isn't good enough. Unfortunately with lycans close enough ends up looking too much like something from an old low budget horror film or a cutesy anime character and too little like what we'd actually like to be playing. This is extremely important in a format where we can actually view our characters.
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I guess Dark Fantasy is a tottaly different game genre of PFO one (high fantasy), combining elements of fantasy and horror genres.
Horror settings is not a proposal of Golarium, as long I was concerned. I am not saying that I won't a like a Dark Fantasy game, but obviously it'll not well fitted in PFO simply because it's not the genre of the game. Golarium is a well defined world because all the canon behind.
Good idea, but not for PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the general theme behind this suggestion: Expanding the diversity of interest of character concepts in the mmorpg market. That is a positive self-starter to begin with.
Of course I fully believe PFO via the Core Races where all of them are a part of the Skill-Training progression to develop YOUR CHARACTER is going to be interesting and doubly so with the settlement resources and scaleable.
But exploring ideas is good fun. I've argued before that to expand the cast of characters to supporting cast might be one way to diversify the game world. A supporting cast might include some monsters and other types of beings also (include for discussion as necessary).
The were-wolf and the vampire are imho how I see it "part-time monsters". The player is enjoying the core character progression but the "disease aka dis-ease ie ill at ease" of the tainted blood or the beast within is a temporary period of time where the monster takes over the character and a monster is in my reckoning defined by it's perogative to consume.
So if the above holds as the concept (perhaps literary origin as opposed to folkloric eg werewolves might be a combination of rabies and wild young humans raised by wolves who then think and act like wolves; there's modern case studies of this; or in the case of the vampire a combination of iirc TB and anemia and growing of nails and teeth of corpses and perhaps blood rites ceremonies) then the way to properly develop these options is:-
1. Limited in current infected, to limit the number of monsters at any one time
2. Time-limted eg phase of the moon, night-time only
3. Objective change: consuming: eg meat or draining a settlement (any) for boons during the rest of the character's normal time and curse/heavy debuff if they fail to fill their quota during this slim window.
3. Indescriminant and even bias to filling the quota attacking their own settlement via being anonymous shape-changed.
So there may be increases in the above as monster levelling up alongside the character, but that just means they are more of a loose-cannon to have to put up with and that should be the self-selecting capacity.
Perhaps if the character creates too much problems then it can go full werewolf and kill it's remaining character's progression to become a werewolf/vampire monster living with others in the wilds or choose to find a cure of the curse.
So it might even be a portal to change the character completely and permanently or be selfish and keep both but cause more and more problems for your fellows.
This journey and choice to kill all your character has gained and become a full-time were/vamp or to find a cure.
Of course that encourages creating alts. Potentially as full-time monsters, such players would have no choice on who their target is... idk but that idea could be worked on when that bridge is crossed. Hmm, thinking some more, it might suitable to delay the chance to contract lycanthropy or vampirism and other such and more, after a character gains a maximum level for example lvl 20 or more. Ie then the trade-off is quite strong if the choice above is taken, and more importantly limits the population of these monsters.
=
I'm not sure the idea lends itself to factions, it's a little too "just add to the core races", which are defined by their character progression journey, which to me loses the essence of these beings which ideally would be alts ie supporting cast ie becoming a monster from having been a character is crossing "the divide". I always remember Werner Herzog's "Grizzly Man" where he mentions Timothy Treadwell (sic?) crossed/broke the divide between humans and animals (with tragic consequences); albeit that's quite different to monsters, but a smaller leap/divide perhaps to animals than monsters!
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Goblin Squad Member
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*shrugs*
It's a moot point for at least a year or two. Maybe longer. There are too many other features that the game needs before adding a "prestige race". Aristocrats, paladins, rangers, monks, druids, oracles, alchemists, cavaliers, siege weapons, formation combat, carts/caravans, the actual settlement mechanics, kingdom mechanics, most of the deities, half-orcs, halflings, gnomes, Emerald Spire, fleshing out the variety of escalations, etc.
Adding a special race, with a variety of special models (for each were-), special skills, special pvp rules, and special factions for a small subset of people isn't likely to be high on the dev's todo list at this juncture no matter how popular it is. There's just too much that they need to do at this juncture.
Once Early Enrollment pops up and people are checking in regularly, throw the idea out on the crowdforging thing to gauge legitimate interest without needing to argue with people like us. Open Enrollment would be an even better time to check, because it will greatly increase the variety of opinions. Right now, you're mainly contending with the high fantasy crowd.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While I would love a Ravenloft MMO, that really doesn't fit within Golarion, particularly up in the River Kingdoms. When you throw in the Pathfinder aversion to player lycanthropes and undead, I think this idea (mo matter how cool and well-thought) needs to be staked with a silvered stake.
But getting beyond setting issues, I see this turning into the SWG Jedi all over again. Everyone in SWG tried to unlock Jedi because it was clearly an alpha class, and the few hinderances they had did nothing to prevent them spreading like a virus in a setting that should have had no more than 2 Jedi and 2 Sith. Once they made it a starting class, the game lost any real semblance to GCW-era Star Wars with Jedi on every street corner.
If you make something with this level of popularity, and make it powerful, most gamers are going to go for it. To me, that would be terrible for the setting and the game.
The only way I could even remotely get behind it is if they were limited to there only being 6 player vampires and werewolves at any time, and they had every restriction and vulnerability as NPC ones do. You could keep the ability as long as you had a large min# of kills per day (no hiding in safe zones to keep the powers) and never died. The first time you die, its gone permanently and cannot be regained by that character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But getting beyond setting issues, I see this turning into the SWG Jedi all over again. Everyone in SWG tried to unlock Jedi because it was clearly an alpha class, and the few hinderances they had did nothing to prevent them spreading like a virus in a setting that should have had no more than 2 Jedi and 2 Sith. Once they made it a starting class, the game lost any real semblance to GCW-era Star Wars with Jedi on every street corner.
If you make something with this level of popularity, and make it powerful, most gamers are going to go for it. To me, that would be terrible for the setting and the game.
That's the heart of the matter. "Hey wouldn't it be cool if I could have this really powerful race?" means that everyone would want to have that powerful race.
There are a lot of ways DMs can control powergamers, but in an MMO it's just not doable.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I don't think that it is interesting to create a game in the game : I don't want some complex lunar cycle, factions entire specific game designs.
But I don't see why not having the possibility to apply archetypes to our characters, with major downsides, so it stays, in the end, a CURSE, and something not to be chosen lightly.
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So as far as I understand (considering that I could be wrong) White Wolf world is horror, with some pinchs of steampunk, gothic punk and others subcultures aspects depends on . But searching more see the World of Darkness is essencialy Gothic-Punk by some analisys.
And by Dark Fantasy I understand that is a mixture of horror and fantasy, like Ravenloft was. And that is what I thought OP was talking.
I´m believe we'll be in a High Fantasy setting in PFO.
Thank you for WoD End's info. I am an orphan of that game too...
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Goblin Squad Member
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*bump*... in the night!
I think Virgil talks a lot of good sense. Urgency would be low, but importance could be raised if it widens market appeal with variety of character types on offer and doubly so if connected with monetization. I'd be tempted to stump up for the chance to create a were-wolf for example.
Traianus Decius Aureus wrote:
>"The only way I could even remotely get behind it is if they were limited to there only being 6 player vampires and werewolves at any time..."
The underlying assumption is that any player can become any character. Maybe PFO can examine this assumption further down the line? Jedi worked in lore as extraordinary; I think that people still talk about the early days when they were vanishingly rare does suggest such an approach is stimulating and interesting. Just keep producing template support cast to create more diversity and that goes beyond "monsters" to other categorizations that interplay with the core character progression process. LOL in a very tenuous comparison sort of monetizes as such with a new hero added to the game every so often to try to tie-back to importance again. The virtual world itself becomes more interesting the more diversity is attached to it, and hence players creating roles for themselves and Goblinworks creating roles that players could fill, maybe there could a dual approach with these templates or prestige additions?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sci-fi is also a popular genre. Should we also bring in laser weapons and space ships from Numeria? I mean, these things are supposed to be rare, but they exist in the setting, so, fair game, right?
Perhaps you should listen to the Gobocast here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sci-fi is also a popular genre. Should we also bring in laser weapons and space ships from Numeria? I mean, these things are supposed to be rare, but they exist in the setting, so, fair game, right?Perhaps you should listen to the Gobocast here.
If you're going to point someone at a 50 minute recording, you should really be more specific.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The World of Darkness requires a World of Darkness setting. Just lump them in with templates and move on.
And just speaking for WoD. It is the storytellers job to instill the emotions the players should feel. And the "thrill" that the Storyteller section normally tells you to aim for is suspense, because genuine horror is hard to instill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While I think Dhampir could end up as a pretty popular race I think if you implement skinwalkers you might as well just get rid of all the options other then Fanglords AKA Weretiger-Kin and make sure you have a good selection of tails and cat ears because nobody wanting to play an actual lycanthrope will be interested in that race. The furries on the other hand will be quite happy.
To illustrate my point:
This was one of the most loved races by most people I talked to in DF1.
When they made all the races the same size for Unholy Wars and changed it to this, it was one of thee top complained about differences between DF1 and DFUW.
Sometimes close enough just isn't good enough. Unfortunately with lycans close enough ends up looking too much like something from an old low budget horror film or a cutesy anime character and too little like what we'd actually like to be playing. This is extremely important in a format where we can actually view our characters.
Your anecdote from another game and apparent hate for an odd minority aren't relevant.
Skinwalkers are not anime catgirls. They could look similar to Eberron's Shifters in 'human' form, which is like the glabro form from old World of Darkness. Yeah, they're hairy and not exactly pretty, but that's traditional werewolf lore.In wereform, they'd be more like the crinos form from WoD, but probably not quite so large.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The comparison of Sci-Fi and Dark Fantasy as being equally unfit for the high fantasy genre makes no sense. Anyone who's read the Silmarillion knows Sauron was the lord of werewolves and Lord of the Rings is the basis of modern high fantasy:
Werewolves were thought of by Sauron, who was their lord, and took the shape of a great wolf himself at least once.
Mind the werewolves are very different but find me a mention of a spaceship or a lazer gun anywhere in Tolkien's writing.
Point is these creatures are very at home in the high fantasy setting. I'm not asking to port them over from another setting I'm asking for an adaptation of Paizo's own lore on them just like this entire game is an adaptation of the Paizo lore that definately does stretch it and make it it's own a bit in multiple areas such as the exclusion of core spells, adapting the mechanics of core classes, and making us freaking immortals.
In no way do werewolves and vampires clash with a setting filled with elves and dwarves. They add to it.
Skinwalkers are not anime catgirls. They could look similar to Eberron's Shifters in 'human' form, which is like the glabro form from old World of Darkness. Yeah, they're hairy and not exactly pretty, but that's traditional werewolf lore.
In wereform, they'd be more like the crinos form from WoD, but probably not quite so large.
I've read up on them and seen the pictures. They look about 95% human even in animal form. They take on features of the animal they are shifting to such as claws or a bit of their features in the face. For instance the picture of the Fanglord really didn't change much at all except adding a tail.
Skinwalker
Werebear-kin
Werewolf-kin
This is a very visual format. That is part of the point of a video game.
People looking to play this are not going to find those to be an even semi-suitable replacement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The comparison of Sci-Fi and Dark Fantasy as being equally unfit for the high fantasy genre makes no sense. Anyone who's read the Silmarillion knows Sauron was the lord of werewolves and Lord of the Rings is the basis of modern high fantasy:
Werewolves were thought of by Sauron, who was their lord, and took the shape of a great wolf himself at least once.Mind the werewolves are very different but find me a mention of a spaceship or a lazer gun anywhere in Tolkien's writing.
Point is these creatures are very at home in the high fantasy setting. I'm not asking to port them over from another setting I'm asking for an adaptation of Paizo's own lore on them just like this entire game is an adaptation of the Paizo lore that definately does stretch it and make it it's own a bit in multiple areas such as the exclusion of core spells, adapting the mechanics of core classes, and making us freaking immortals.
In no way do werewolves and vampires clash with a setting filled with elves and dwarves. They add to it.
I haven't see anyone make the point that werewolves and vampires have no place in Pathfinder. Only that they have no place as PCs, and should not be as common as the typical PC races. Nice strawman though.
Actually, a land grab-focused MMO full of house walls sounds kinda cool. If moronic. ;D
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm all for adding all of the cool stuff Golarion has to offer to PFO over time.
Werewolves and Vampires, sure.
Aliens and Super-Tech, why not.
Ninjas and Samurai, awesome.
Gunslingers and radioactive mutants, of course.
Mammoth riders and Ice Witches, perfect fit.
The Crusader's Road was chosen not only because it is an undeveloped region of the map, but because people from all over Galarion travel through the region on the region on their way to the Worldwound. If it fits in Galarion it fits in PFO.
That said Vampire or werewolf, or any other crazy build shouldn't be any better or worse than any other. They just need to be mechanically distinct from other builds.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Within a week of Elder Scrolls Online going retail there were hundreds if not thousands of players who had learned what it took to become a werewolf. They were much harder to kill, did a ridiculous amount of damage (even the NPC werewolves were much harder to kill than the average NPC or monster of the same level), and the area where the werewolves spawned was impossible to get through without seeing at least 100 players werewolves. It lost its novelty after about 30 minutes. OK, 5 minutes.
Y'know, I think we'd have more luck courting the dark fantasy players if we just added an Ustulav area later on. We can have werewolves and vampires as NPCs, which will probably be more appealing to both the lore loyalists and dark fantasy players than just having Ted the Werewolf hanging out around the farm eating your chickens.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Skinwalkers are not anime catgirls. They could look similar to Eberron's Shifters in 'human' form, which is like the glabro form from old World of Darkness. Yeah, they're hairy and not exactly pretty, but that's traditional werewolf lore.
In wereform, they'd be more like the crinos form from WoD, but probably not quite so large.I've read up on them and seen the pictures. They look about 95% human even in animal form. They take on features of the animal they are shifting to such as claws or a bit of their features in the face. For instance the picture of the Fanglord really didn't change much at all except adding a tail.
Skinwalker
Werebear-kin
This is a very visual format. That is part of the point of a video game.People looking to play this are not going to find those to be an even semi-suitable replacement.
All the playable races look like slightly altered humans, so I don't see your point there. Even on Earth, humans and chimps share over 95% of their genes, we're just very sensitive to details for our own species. The uncanny valley effect which makes other primates look a bit 'funny' and current attempts at androids a bit 'off' shows that we still recognize how similar they are, on some level.
The first three images look just like Shifters or the glabro form of a WoD werewolf. Your "this" looks like the crinos form of a WoD werewolf.
Yes, video games are visual; what a profound observation.
Allowing license with the visuals is exactly the adjustment I'm talking about.
I see no reason that GW couldn't make the 'glabro'-like look the 'base' form and the 'crinos'-like shape what they can change into on a limited basis. It's the stats of a full werewolf that make them unbalanced, not their art. GW has already 'marked their territory' all over the rules in many other areas, so making the skinwalker more visually dramatic is hardly a problem.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You can balance the stats of a werewolf or change the visual of a skinwalker and either is fine with me as long as my half-elf form is fully half-elf and my werewolf form is fully werewolf from the visual perspective.
Those skinwalker forms are so ridiculous looking I'd rather just go wildshape druid and use wolf form if they're the best I can do otherwise.
Not that I consider wildshape druids a bad option as long as they do them right but it would be a hell of a lot of fun to play a werewolf rogue, ranger, barbarian, sorcerer etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Within a week of Elder Scrolls Online going retail there were hundreds if not thousands of players who had learned what it took to become a werewolf. They were much harder to kill, did a ridiculous amount of damage (even the NPC werewolves were much harder to kill than the average NPC or monster of the same level), and the area where the werewolves spawned was impossible to get through without seeing at least 100 players werewolves. It lost its novelty after about 30 minutes. OK, 5 minutes.
This is an excellent way to constructively add to the discussion, by using a strong example of "how a themepark design" would implement werewolves and turn them into vanilla flavor for all, instead of "wet dog" flavor (!) for them that like that flavor (I can't imagine it being 1/100th as popular as vanilla flavor ice-cream).
So, with PFO we must come up with a very different way to develop and implement werewolves, if at all. I've come up with an idea that I've not shared yet but need to work on further. Got a busy week or two ahead but will try to work on it in my spare time. I think it could be not only a solution but a method also.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Positive energy always hurts (I don't care that your alignment isn't evil, it's biology)
Which is why I would still totally play an Undead Paladin. Who cares if I can never Lay On Hands myself? It's all about the style, man.
@Andius: For your reasons WHY this should be implemented.
- The first is an appeal to popularity. A population you later admit to be a sizable minority. Well, if it's only popular within a subset of a larger group (MMO/Pathfinder players) and that larger group isn't very large to begin with, I don't quite see the point.
- The second seems counter-intuitive. If an MMO with these themes was unsuccessful enough to not continue existing or go forward with a sequel, I don't think the sub-genre is really popular enough to latch on symbiotically to a game that's already been sold to backers as something that isn't this.
- The third is an entirely valid point. It would make viable sense from a lore/geographical perspective.
@Kobold: The almost-universal rules should never apply to Player Characters. This isn't WoW, where there's somehow justification for a Gnome not being able to be a Hunter and use the guns their town NPCs are clearly using. If it isn't literally impossible to do, there shouldn't be a reason to tell a play what they can't something that can't be circumvented by good storytelling.
Cosmic: And if you're playing Pathfinder, that's all well and good. Exceptions exist, and in a Pathfinder campaign with 2-6 players, it's easy to make stuff work.
This is basically a Pathfinder campaign with 2-6000 players. There's a big difference. You can't make "little exceptions"—once it's possible for a player, it's going to become quite common simply by design.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Kobold: In my opinion, that should not matter. Despite the fact that in FFXIV, the Cat-like race of Mi'quote is supposed to be a large majority of females. (Something like a 1:200 ratio male to female.) There's no illusion broken when you find just as many cat-dude as cat-girl players running about.
The realistic size of a group a player frequently engages with in a considerable fashion is still a relatively small group of maybe a couple dozen players. It's better to let a player have a toy for flavor than take it away simply more people are using it than there "should" be.
If we give players every toy they think they want, they'll quickly realize how little of it really makes them enjoy the game more.
Frankly, I don't really like a 1:200 ratio being so cheerfully dispelled. I would say that that race may not make much sense as a playable race.