So we are about halfway through book 4 in Skull and Shackles, and my group has been talking about whats next (we get a bit ahead of ourselves). Signs point towards WotR and we have been bandying about playing siblings, which might be fun.
In that I have been thinking about playing a Lawful Evil character, possibly a war priest demonhunter sworn to asmodeus. Now I think for the most part I'll let my siblings keep me in line, and I would focus my character on the absolute order vs. the chaos of demon's aspect. But still I want him to be willing to go to extreme ends to either protect his naive siblings from their do goodery, or to kill demons.
So my question is: Is it possible to be evil in wrath of the righteous? would it be a viable character option? Would it be interesting without making my RP choice a hassle for the group and GM?
It depends on your GM and fellow players. As written, no. There is no support for evil PCs or evil factions assisting in the crusades against the Worldwound.
I have a LE Oracle follower of Asmodeus in my WotR campaign, and while I had initial concerns it has turned out great. We have a group of 7 including a LG Paladin, a LN Inquisitor and the LE Oracle, which has made for some very entertaining RP.
I recommend you cover a number of topics with your GM, specifically what makes you evil, and why you have come to the Worldwound and are willing to risk your life fighting demons.
When creating your character's persona, make sure you align those two topics otherwise your character may feel forced or out of place in the campaign.
And remember, in game your LE character might be a jerk but no one likes to sit down at the table with one! Make sure you don't take it to a point where it detracts from everyone's fun.
Thanks Hippie,
We have a pretty mature (sense of humor notwithstanding) group. Almost everyone has played an Evil character before, I think Lawful evil will let me tow the line of loyalty to my companions, and hatred of chaos, even if my methods are a bit different! Thats the hope at least!
they don't necessarily have to be LE, plenty of motivation for NE or CE, hello ultimate power!
The AP is actively written to discourage evil characters. I'd recommend against playing one, because you'll force the GM to rewrite the entire campaign to suit your character.
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i disagree,
you don't need to re-write the whole thing, there is plenty of motivation if you look for it:)
there are ways to play an evil character without being a jerk about your evilness:)
That seems to be because of the love the forums have for Asmodeus, not for anything written in the books. In fact the lead designer kind of said don't do it.
However, it is more of a GM thing... his GM and his players.
I would say that the answer could be 'No', not everyone does want the Worldwound dealt with. It had been mentioned that Cheliax, so probably some divisions of the Church of Asmodeus enjoy the Worldwound being open as it keeps crusaders away from them.
In fact...
Another option could be the Hellknights of the Order of the Godclaw. They range from LG Paladins to LE since their faith technically follows teachings of Torag, Iomedae, Abadar, Asmodeus and one other Lawful deity... And you can just focus heavily on Asmodeus.
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It really depends on your DM and your party. This is a know your table moment. There will be certain advantages to playing an evil character and certain disadvantages. (In both the theater of combat and RP).
It's certainly doable. But, as written, it is discouraged. The path is about capital G heroes after all.
I'm running it right now and have an LE Skald and a NE Gunslinger. Really it's all about motivation. The Skald is all about reputation and being able to manipulate others, so she views participating in the crusade as a way to both keep her allies from finding out she's a b*!@% and improve her reputation for her own ends, and the Gunslinger has a personal vendetta against demons because one disfigured him on the job, pretty much putting him out of the job (mercenary specializing in undercover work).
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The AP is actively written to discourage evil characters. I'd recommend against playing one, because you'll force the GM to rewrite the entire campaign to suit your character.
I'm half way through GMing this AP and if there was an evil Character I'd change nothing. Even if it was evil party I'd change nothing. It would make for interesting change. I'd insist the party or character be anti-demon. They need a reason to fighting against the demons after all but AP would work just fine. It would more difficult at times though.
Differences on opinions here. Thematically this is written to be Good versus Evil. You could also say that the queen wouldn't trust any evil PCs, then the adventure would never really start.
Im running the AP for 2 devils (lilin and ink devil) a fiendish gnome wizard and a half fiend doppelganger. Don't mind the leveling of these characters, we sorted them out. What we try here is playing it in the Forgotten Realms, the PCs being the agents of the Nine Hells working against the demons by corrupting the crusaders. We consider the fenomenon of the rift as a part of the Blood Wars that has spilled to the Material Plane.
And it works fine so far. The PCs are infiltrating, rpging their way through the enemies and earning the trust of the npcs as they do so.
I might have some difficulties rewriting some parts to fit these characters but it will worth it! :)
I've moseyed into this territory as in Book 4 one of the PCs decided to give in to temptation, and an alignment shift to CE was in order. (If you want details, let me know and I'll post in a spoiler. Let's just say it's the first-ever alignment shift I've imposed, and I think it was justified.)
The problem is, I can certainly see SOME of the crusaders working with LE people to achieve their ends -- LE people don't care for chaos and destruction, either, and can work well hand-in-hand with LG people, as long as the rules are set well beforehand. (I personally *LOVED* roleplaying out the LE Laori Vaus and the LG paladin of Iomedae agreeing on precisely what she was allowed to do while accompanying the party in Curse of the Crimson Throne.)
I don't see the crusaders working with NE or CE people of any sort for any reason. If their word isn't their bond, how can you trust them?
My $0.02.
(And for the record, what I had been hoping would be a long "road to redemption" story was instead the player declaring himself "burned out" on RPGs, and the alignment shift was the "final straw" that opened his eyes that he needed to take an indefinite break from our games. Too bad -- I had lots of ideas to help him out of the mess he'd gotten himself into...)
I've moseyed into this territory as in Book 4 one of the PCs decided to give in to temptation, and an alignment shift to CE was in order. (If you want details, let me know and I'll post in a spoiler. Let's just say it's the first-ever alignment shift I've imposed, and I think it was justified.)
I would like the detail if you wouldn't mind. I have a character who will probably be running the line towards evil for WotR and I'd like to see what drove yours over.
I've moseyed into this territory as in Book 4 one of the PCs decided to give in to temptation, and an alignment shift to CE was in order. (If you want details, let me know and I'll post in a spoiler. Let's just say it's the first-ever alignment shift I've imposed, and I think it was justified.)I would like the detail if you wouldn't mind. I have a character who will probably be running the line towards evil for WotR and I'd like to see what drove yours over.
OK, you asked for it!
The AP started with the player in question playing a CN tengu bard, and kind of reveling in not caring in the least about anyone else. He was in his own little world, and did whatever he felt like. Fortunately, "Whatever he felt like" was pretty harmless, and he was a nice bit of comedy relief for the group as he kept getting himself into trouble with his excessive greed ("Shineys!").
Unfortunately, the turning point came at Arushelae's cell in the dungeons under Drezen.
I am a firm believer that gods are beyond mortals, and god-touched areas are really and truly "different" from anything a mortal spellcaster can do. So he'd already taken the mythic Beyond Morality, which is such a slap in the face to players and GMs that I would have banned it had I known it existed before he took it. The other players were extremely unhappy with his decision, but rolled with it. He started playing his PC as utterly selfish with no concern whatsoever for anyone else. It didn't help in the least that we had our first "live" conflicts as well -- the player had never played a bard before, and really was a very crappy bard. He'd forget to perform, forget to cast Haste, forget to cast Heroism, etc. A non-buffing bard isn't a particular asset to the party, and when the other players called him out on it he got outright angry, explaining that he really didn't understand how bards worked, and he didn't appreciate the "criticism". I think this should have been our "big red flag" that he was getting burned out. (When your sorceress takes Haste and starts casting it in every combat, you know something's wrong with the bard.)
Anyway, I added a god-touched Forbiddance effect to the cell, and at CN he got hit. He argued that his Beyond Morality should have protected him. I argued that this was a goddess, not a mortal, and she could see his true heart, and didn't like what she saw.
After that he got even more distant and apathetic as a player.
So when they got to Alushinyrra and everyone started treating him cordially, he welcomed the attention. On the offer of a succubus, he said, "Well, why not? It's not like I've seen any female tengu around!"
I tried to emphasize that the only reason she wasn't draining him to an empty husk was that he was paying through the nose for her company. He didn't care. He enjoyed her company through and through. The other PCs expressed their displeasure at having a succubus in their suite, but he ignored them and kept her on. He wouldn't send her away; they other PCs had to wait until she was up and around, done with breakfast, and moving on to "other duties" before they could talk to him.
So I decided to see just how far I could push him until he'd wake up as to the depredations of the Abyss. He started getting served "delicious maggot steaks". Two sessions later, I revealed that they were actually slices of damned human souls. He didn't care. He kept right on eating them. He said, "Well, they're damned anyway, so what harm am I doing? I'm probably preventing some demons from ever being born. That's a good thing, right?"
Finally, in the meeting with Nocticula she was her charming self, and everyone else *knew* there was something seriously wrong. He just walked up and said, "Sure, I'll take your gift!"
At that point, I couldn't keep letting things go. I let him know that his alignment had shifted and his soul was damned, and I started working out a whole "redemption scenario" for him.
Unfortunately, the alignment shift was the last straw, and he quit instead.
EDIT: As a side note, although I despise Beyond Morality, I respected it for the remainder of the game. Even Desna's bell in Arushelae's Redoubt did not affect him. So it wasn't nearly the, "The GM hates my ability and so he's picking on me," moment that it sounds like. It was just the first indicator that he was really unhappy with the way the game was running...
So WotR is on hold for us indefinitely.
they don't necessarily have to be LE, plenty of motivation for NE or CE, hello ultimate power!
In addition to that, remember that Qlippoths hate Demons too -- the Demons exterminated many of them and took over much of their home. Not only that, but Qlippoths hate mortal sin too, since it feeds and produces Demons, even though Qlippoths obviously have their own sin, which extremely likely contributed to making the Abyss hospitable to the Demonic origin (engineered by the leading Daemons of the time) and takeover. I wonder whether it might be possible to redeem a Qlippoth by convincing it of this . . . .
I've moseyed into this territory as in Book 4 one of the PCs decided to give in to temptation, and an alignment shift to CE was in order. (If you want details, let me know and I'll post in a spoiler. Let's just say it's the first-ever alignment shift I've imposed, and I think it was justified.)I would like the detail if you wouldn't mind. I have a character who will probably be running the line towards evil for WotR and I'd like to see what drove yours over.OK, you asked for it!
** spoiler omitted **
So WotR is on hold for us indefinitely.
:(
I'm very sad to hear that your campaign is on hold. The actual fall of your player was kinda fantastic.
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I've moseyed into this territory as in Book 4 one of the PCs decided to give in to temptation, and an alignment shift to CE was in order. (If you want details, let me know and I'll post in a spoiler. Let's just say it's the first-ever alignment shift I've imposed, and I think it was justified.)I would like the detail if you wouldn't mind. I have a character who will probably be running the line towards evil for WotR and I'd like to see what drove yours over.OK, you asked for it!
** spoiler omitted **
So WotR is on hold for us indefinitely.:(
I'm very sad to hear that your campaign is on hold. The actual fall of your player was kinda fantastic.
Yeah, I was pretty sad. Nocticula was going to play him like a puppet. The way I see it, she will see anyone who accepts her "gift" as a weak link in a party she is hoping will succeed, so she was going to spend her time trying to convince the rest of the party to get rid of him as "bad blood".
So it was going to be a whole campaign arc on him trying to find a Miracle from either demons who wouldn't help him, or crusaders who wouldn't trust him.
It would have been a fun, fun story arc.
Ah, well. Maybe after a while he'll want to test it out...
And if you'd like some ideas...
As I said, I figure Nocticula would consider anyone who succumbed to her realm's paltry temptations as utterly unworthy of continuing the quest to seal the Worldwound, which is something she wants. So I was going to have her intervene:
- First and foremost, she would forbid the PC from having Protection from Evil on them, or on being within a Magic Circle of Protection from Evil. She would use her link to Dispel any such attempt, and would coyly explain that her "pet" needed to stay within her control.
- Second, she would toy with her puppet's mind, figuring he or she was already a dedicated follower, so why not go all the way? Each night the affected PC would have to make a Will save, starting at DC 15 and going all the way up (+1 per night) to Nocticula's formidable limit. On failing, the PC would re-enact her ritual: Slay his or her lover, cut out the victim's heart, and consume it.
- Third (and this was great for a bard), she was going to prove how useless the PC was to the rest of the party by using her Dominate to make him/her stand still for an entire combat. 3 mythic PCs can win any combat in the last 3 books, so it's a great way to make the PC feel useless.
- For the entire time, have Nocticula whispering in his/her ear: "You're useless. They don't need you. Kill yourself. It will be better for everyone."
Hope that gives you some ideas as to how to be mean!
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And I will totally go that route if my PC should give in to temptation. Since that particular PC immediately decided they were in love with the succubus who shows up in Council of Thieves... and mind-controlled that succubus to keep them 'happy'.... I do like having contingency plans.
That said, I know you were doing special things for all of the campaign traits, would you mind if I picked your brain about those in another thread or via paizo-email?
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** spoiler omitted **
Oh, feel free to PM me, or heck, post in my thread. It needs some activity! (I just lost 10 hours of writing to a mysterious "someone else used my computer and all the files just disappeared, but it's totally not his fault" syndrome, so I'm pretty down on writing at the moment.)
Without any spoilers, there are four overall threads:
(1) The story the AP is telling.
(2) The story I would like to tell based on the AP's story.
(3) The story the PC's character traits tell.
(4) The story the PCs are telling by playing out the scenario.
All I did was look over my group's traits, look over how the AP tells the story of those traits, and decide that I didn't like it so I intermingled the stories into something I liked better.
It went well... up until all my files vanished!
(Grr.... avoids picking up axe and heading for said person's home..."
** spoiler omitted **Oh, feel free to PM me, or heck, post in my thread. It needs some activity! (I just lost 10 hours of writing to a mysterious "someone else used my computer and all the files just disappeared, but it's totally not his fault" syndrome, so I'm pretty down on writing at the moment.)
Without any spoilers, there are four overall threads:
(1) The story the AP is telling.
(2) The story I would like to tell based on the AP's story.
(3) The story the PC's character traits tell.
(4) The story the PCs are telling by playing out the scenario.All I did was look over my group's traits, look over how the AP tells the story of those traits, and decide that I didn't like it so I intermingled the stories into something I liked better.
It went well... up until all my files vanished!
(Grr.... avoids picking up axe and heading for said person's home..."
Ouch. That sucks beyond belief.
And makes me *really* happy for back-ups that other people do no touch.
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NobodysHome, please do post these things somewhere when you can. I'm very curious...
I spend an hour a day on campaign journals, which usually nets 1-2 a week. We fell WAAAAAY behind because my players were demanding 3 sessions a week, but now that we're on hiatus I should start catching up. Here's the linky.
I was trying to catch up and finish off my RotRL journal, and that's the one that took the massive hit over the weekend, so until I calm down a bit it'll be WotR. I expect something to pop up there this week.