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In defense of the Marilith, CR isn't just about damage output (and most monsters have an AC pegged at about 10+3/4s bab at CR).
I never said it was. Check my breakdown of the Balor vs Pit fiend before. Pit fiends are robust creatures worthy of being a high-CR evil outsider.
The SLAs are useful for stuff besides just 'move directly at enemy, engage, hit hit hit'
Not by much.
Greater teleport and blade barrier allow for the marilith to split the field, and then move in to engage enemies piecemeal, although rogues and monks will likely bypass the barrier with no trouble.
If by rogues and monks you mean Rangers, Barbarians, Paladins, Wizards, Sorcerers, some Clerics, some Druids, and Bards. Even if they don't ignore the damage, they're looking at an average of 52 damage if they decide to just walk through the field and willingy fail their save.
Also, the grab and weapon attacks can be direted at whatever target is nearby. While its possibly for people at this level (assuming the boss is a CR+4, this means 13th by my estimation) to manage ACs in the thirties, its still going to hit the squishier folks what don't want a constrict most of the time, and its CMB is respectable enough that it can blow some of its sword attacks on disarms.
I guess if it wants to get turned into paste by provoking a ton of AoOs, and if the party is ambushed and such. I'm not sure why a Maralith would want to be surrounded by enemies in melee with her given that her AC is moderate but not great by any means.
Also, the CR takes into account potentially 1-4 hezrou, who have their own fun stuff going for them (chaos hammer, unholy blight, and nausea); 1 nalfeshee (call lightning, greater dispel, call lightning and its own +23 to hit (3d8+11 bite attack), also a 20% chance (1-5) of pulling in an entirely other marilith.
Of course, you have to choose one of those. You don't get to cast and test for each. Which means you have an 80% chance of your summon doing nothing at all, a 65% of your summon doing nothing at all, and a 40% chance of your summon doing nothing at all, which progressively weaker and weaker minions. Contrast the Pit Fiend who is guaranteed a monster of CR 19 or lower by choice.
CR needs to take into account the intended tactics of the monster as well as its capabilities. Its one of the reasons I also dislike low CR monsters that are directed as if they have Ender Wiggin driving them.
This is probably the first time I've ever heard someone tell me that I'm not playing monsters intelligently or to their wiser tactics. This is a big day for me. :D
I think he's more referring to some monsters are supposed to be played stupidly. Ender Wiggin is a genius tactician, and he's protesting against low CR monsters being played super smart.
==Aelryinth
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In defense of the Marilith, CR isn't just about damage output (and most monsters have an AC pegged at about 10+3/4s bab at CR).I never said it was. Check my breakdown of the Balor vs Pit fiend before. Pit fiends are robust creatures worthy of being a high-CR evil outsider.
The SLAs are useful for stuff besides just 'move directly at enemy, engage, hit hit hit'Not by much.
Greater teleport and blade barrier allow for the marilith to split the field, and then move in to engage enemies piecemeal, although rogues and monks will likely bypass the barrier with no trouble.If by rogues and monks you mean Rangers, Barbarians, Paladins, Wizards, Sorcerers, some Clerics, some Druids, and Bards. Even if they don't ignore the damage, they're looking at an average of 52 damage if they decide to just walk through the field and willingy fail their save.
Also, the grab and weapon attacks can be direted at whatever target is nearby. While its possibly for people at this level (assuming the boss is a CR+4, this means 13th by my estimation) to manage ACs in the thirties, its still going to hit the squishier folks what don't want a constrict most of the time, and its CMB is respectable enough that it can blow some of its sword attacks on disarms.I guess if it wants to get turned into paste by provoking a ton of AoOs, and if the party is ambushed and such. I'm not sure why a Maralith would want to be surrounded by enemies in melee with her given that her AC is moderate but not great by any means.
Also, the CR takes into account potentially 1-4 hezrou, who have their own fun stuff going for them (chaos hammer, unholy blight, and nausea); 1 nalfeshee (call lightning, greater dispel, call lightning and its own +23 to hit (3d8+11 bite attack), also a 20% chance (1-5) of pulling in an entirely other marilith.Of course, you have to choose one of those. You don't get to cast and test for each. Which means you have an 80% chance of your...
Not a personal statement. Just a general observation. :)
I've seen a lot of people mis-run fiends. Greater Teleport allows for headaches and requirements for stuff like d-anchor (which anyone fighting fiends /should/ bring along).
And again, my predicate, which I should have made clearer, was her engaging four 13th level adventurers (At CR+4), not comparable leveled guys.
I also believe, despite the likelihood of failure, the summoning capability is definitely a CR effecting element of a monster's composition. The percentage plays a part (quasits used to be able to pull in a balor on a 10% chance in the days of yore).
There's a reason the summoning was also nerfed from the positively eldritch days of 2e so summoned fiends can't summon other fiends.
The Marilith's primary design seems to be based around blade barrier to split the group (and despite it only being hit points, people tend to not like to throw those away).
I'm admittedly not an expert on mathfinder, I'm just stating my own experiences in operating the girls.
EDIT:
And yeah, on the other end of things I've seen people play Gelatinous Cubes as cunning tacticians making use of misdirection and feinting, as opposed to giant mindless eating blobs.
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Drawing objects takes time. I sure as hell hope my NPCs have something better to do than draw 15 swords out of a bag in the middle of combat.
EDIT: Of course, you still run into the problem that swords + bags = greater than 50 lbs., effectively rendering her a slow landbound wussy.
EDIT: As per Kudaku's suggestion, you could burn 12,000 gp of her wealth to make all of her swords out of mithral, which would give her 26 lbs worth of equipment to toy around with. Even with a handy haversack, retrieving an item from the bag is a move-action.
I have to say I never thought about the ramifications of devil/demon teleportation only allowing you to bring 50 lb of gear - as you say, most heavy armor is right out the window. That's a nice catch!
And yeah, on the other end of things I've seen people play Gelatinous Cubes as cunning tacticians making use of misdirection and feinting, as opposed to giant mindless eating blobs.
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And yeah, on the other end of things I've seen people play Gelatinous Cubes as cunning tacticians making use of misdirection and feinting, as opposed to giant mindless eating blobs.
You've never seen a gelatinous cube sorcerer :P
"Is that a staff sticking out of the gelatinous cube? Why is it moving in such... INCOMING FIREBALL!"
Believe me when I say that using fiends (or outsiders in general) is one of my favorite things as a GM. I'm malevolent with them, so much so that I'm not sure why my players are always hankerin' for more.
APL+4 is beyond an "epic" encounter for a party in PF. You can do just fine with APL+1 or +2, and APL+3 encounters can be devastating if your GM is competent. If you have to go beyond APL+3 to make a monster look somewhat decent, which is beyond the point that the encounter building mechanics even look at, then that's big evidence for a big problem.
Again, comparing to the pit fiend relatively (as in not CR to CR but difference in APL vs CR) the pit fiend is a robust and mighty monster worthy of its CR. Remember that higher and higher CRs mean you're worth more and more smaller monsters. That's some big shoes to fill. A single pit fiend is supposed to be worth 2 CR 18 enemies working as a team, and y'know, the pit fiend delivers.
The demons, on the other hand, do not seem to be delivering at quite the same pace. Balors are jokes. Maraliths are jokes. However the lower-CR demons are pretty awesome. I'm a big fan of succubi, babau, dretches, etc. Most of those are either pretty robust for their CRs, or have a solid niche that they can play with.
Maraliths just don't. Their own features work against them (like how grossly difficult it is for them to actually wield weapons in their arms while being able to make use of their abilities), and their SLAs aren't that great either. Their blade barrier caps at 15d6 damage and due to the low-ish DC, isn't super threatening. At this level, most PCs are going to have ways of getting around those barriers too. Most of the people who are going to want to get through them are either going to have the HP to soak it or, more likely, aren't going to take any damage at all (Barbarians & Paladins both are served well with a Ring of Evasion, and Rangers have Evasion and a good Reflex naturally, while combat Bards can 'port around them too at this level, and sine maraliths don't fly and are relatively slow, just staying in the air is really all you need to laugh at them (unless your idea of a good fight involves greater teleporting into the air and then promptly taking falling damage while wasting your turn).
Also, she can't even spam the wall, since it's only 3/day.
Compare to the mighty CR 16 Planetar. Or even the not so mighty but still pretty great Horned Devil who has the ability to stun enemies with every weapon attack against them (at a whopping DC 27, which is serious) with a good bonus to hit, has strong defenses for its CR including regeneration against non-good effects, has an at-will buff that allows him to auto-dispel good or chaotic aligned spell effects and get +4 to AC and saves against good or chaotic aligned enemies (bringing his naked AC up to 39 vs paladins and stuff), has at-will magic circle against good/chaos which is a long-duration buff that prevents compulsion effects from dictating his actions.
His SLAs aren't that strong, but it has similar ones to the Maralith, and some that are just outright better. Dispel chaos/good can be used to banish summons, or break enchantment effects cast by good creatures (so things like greater heroism from any good-aligned friends just got hosed, no check needed). What SLAs he does have are mostly for peppering or interrupting spellcasting (and wouldn't be bad options for Quicken SLA if his feats were reselected into things that didn't suck).
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As for gelatinous cubes...I prefer to include them at the bottom of pit traps. >:)
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Drawing objects takes time. I sure as hell hope my NPCs have something better to do than draw 15 swords out of a bag in the middle of combat.
EDIT: Of course, you still run into the problem that swords + bags = greater than 50 lbs., effectively rendering her a slow landbound wussy.
EDIT: As per Kudaku's suggestion, you could burn 12,000 gp of her wealth to make all of her swords out of mithral, which would give her 26 lbs worth of equipment to toy around with. Even with a handy haversack, retrieving an item from the bag is a move-action.
There are a number of ways around this (the easiest being Quick Draw...though that does necessitate changing her Feat layout, admittedly). I still think ditching the swords for an AoMF is the most fun option, though.
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If a cube got druid levels, would it wildshape as a Medium creature or would it start at Large? What DC would it be to wildshape into a gelatinous icosahedron?
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There are a number of ways around this (the easiest being Quick Draw...though that does necessitate changing her Feat layout, admittedly). I still think ditching the swords for an AoMF is the most fun option, though.Drawing objects takes time. I sure as hell hope my NPCs have something better to do than draw 15 swords out of a bag in the middle of combat.
EDIT: Of course, you still run into the problem that swords + bags = greater than 50 lbs., effectively rendering her a slow landbound wussy.
EDIT: As per Kudaku's suggestion, you could burn 12,000 gp of her wealth to make all of her swords out of mithral, which would give her 26 lbs worth of equipment to toy around with. Even with a handy haversack, retrieving an item from the bag is a move-action.
That would probably be the best option honestly, though I'd miss the aesthetics.
That said, are you sure that Quick Draw works with a haversack? I don't think it does. A haversack is treated as a stored item, except that you may retrieve it as a move action and unlike normal it doesn't provoke an attack.
Draw or Sheathe a Weapon
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
Manipulate an Item
Moving or manipulating an item is usually a move action.This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door. Examples of this kind of action, along with whether they incur an attack of opportunity, are given in Table: Actions in Combat.
Quick draw does nothing for retrieving stored items. It only allows you to draw a weapon as a free action, but the draw/sheath weapon rules note that you must use the retrieve stored item mechanics if your weapon is stored in a pack or other thingy. The haversack as the benefit of negating the AoO that retrieving a stored item normally provokes.
So I'm still pretty sure the maralith can't cheese her way out of this one.
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If a cube got druid levels, would it wildshape as a Medium creature or would it start at Large? What DC would it be to wildshape into a gelatinous icosahedron?
I know this comment would break the high standard of this thread and would break CR guideline by going into dreaded fiat realm, but I would rule that no matter what shape the cube took it would still be gelatinous.
Even if in its dim mind it thought (?) that it wildshaped into a cute bunny on a tree stump with fur and fluffy tail, it in fact would just be a slimy, translucent, gelatinous mass shaped like a bunny sitting on a tree stump.This ignorance on the part of the Cube may or may not play a role in its success as a Druid (adjust CR accordingly).
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Do the rules say what the favoured class of a gelatinous cube is, and what bonuses it can choose from? Alchemist would feel somewhat... appropriate.
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If I was to be convinced to add levels to a gelatinous cube, I'd probably spin it in the game as the cube being a sort of magical mutation. If I was to leave it mindless, I'd probably assume that it was just permeated with magic and occasionally those spells kind of bubbled to the top and it would deliver them through it's natural attacks.
CR 17 Mariliths are pretty severely underpowered.
This 1000 times. I really like the Marilith, but they get mud stomped every time. I do intend to get around to fixing them one day.
edit: I think the idea of average attacks per CR makes the "to hit" bonus low. That is the problem with the hydra also.
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CR 17 Mariliths are pretty severely underpowered.This 1000 times. I really like the Marilith, but they get mud stomped every time. I do intend to get around to fixing them one day.
edit: I think the idea of average attacks per CR makes the "to hit" bonus low. That is the problem with the hydra also.
Speaking of over/under CR'd monsters, Nicos got really angry one day when I mentioned a fast zombie hydra.
Lots of bites + 2 slams + faster + slightly stronger Str/Dex. It's truly a magnificent beast. :P
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Do the rules say what the favoured class of a gelatinous cube is, and what bonuses it can choose from? Alchemist would feel somewhat... appropriate.
That or Barbarian - think of applying Fast Movement to its speed of 15 = 25. Which means it could overtake heavily armored characters.
Ah, the Alchemist Gelatinous Cube - maybe it could hurtle portions of gelatinous mass as part of the classes Bomb Throwing ability or it could drink part of its viscous bodily fluids (based on what it's recently eaten) to utilize its mutagen ability?Possibly multiclass of Alchemist/Barbarian?
Starting to think that the Gelatinous Cube could be OP/Broken, maybe I should start a new thread complaining about that?
In the meantime, I leave this gem for you here. These stats should only be used by people who have posted in this thread. My +0 CR Gelatinous Cube that breaks the spirit of the game.
Fiendish Gelatinous Cube
CR 3
XP 800
N Large ooze
Init –5; Senses blindsight 60 ft., darkvision 60ft.; Perception –5
DEFENSE
AC 4, touch 4, flat-footed 4 (–5 Dex, –1 size)
hp 50 (4d8+32)
Fort +9, Ref –4, Will –4
Immune electricity, ooze traits Resist cold 5, fire 5 SR 8
OFFENSE
Speed 15 ft.
Melee slam +2 (1d6 plus 1d6 acid)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks engulf, paralysis, smite good 1/day (+0 attack, +4 damage),
STATISTICS
Str 10, Dex 1, Con 26, Int —, Wis 1, Cha 1
Base Atk +3; CMB +4; CMD 9 (can’t be tripped)
SQ transparent
ECOLOGY
Environment any underground - or near villages, see special abilities
Organization solitary, Zantar works alone
Treasure incidental, undigested
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Acid (Ex) A gelatinous cube’s acid does not harm metal or stone.
Engulf (Ex) Although it moves slowly, a gelatinous cube can simply engulf Large or smaller creatures in its path as a standard action. It cannot make a slam attack during a round in which it engulfs. The gelatinous cube merely has to move over the opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Opponents can make attacks of opportunity against the cube, but if they do so they are not entitled to a saving throw. Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity can attempt a DC
12 Reflex save to avoid being engulfed—on a success, they are pushed back or aside (opponent’s choice) as the cube moves forward. Engulfed creatures are subject to the cube’s paralysis and acid, gain the pinned condition, are in danger of suffocating, and are trapped within its body until they are no longer pinned. The save DC is Strength-based.
Paralysis (Ex) A gelatinous cube secretes an anesthetizing slime. A target hit by a cube’s melee or engulf attack must succeed on a DC 20 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 3d6 rounds. The cube can automatically engulf a paralyzed opponent. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Transparent (Ex) Due to its lack of coloration, a gelatinous cube is difficult to discern. A DC 15 Perception check is required to notice a motionless gelatinous cube. Any creature that fails to notice a gelatinous cube and walks into it is automatically engulfed.
Villagers (Su) This Gelatinous Cube likes to eat villagers when possible. Adjust CR accordingly
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Do the rules say what the favoured class of a gelatinous cube is, and what bonuses it can choose from? Alchemist would feel somewhat... appropriate.That or Barbarian - think of applying Fast Movement to its speed of 15 = 25. Which means it could overtake heavily armored characters.
Ah, the Alchemist Gelatinous Cube - maybe it could hurtle portions of gelatinous mass as part of the classes Bomb Throwing ability or it could drink part of its viscous bodily fluids (based on what it's recently eaten) to utilize its mutagen ability?Possibly multiclass of Alchemist/Barbarian?
Starting to think that the Gelatinous Cube could be OP/Broken, maybe I should start a new thread complaining about that?
In the meantime, I leave this gem for you here. These stats should only be used by people who have posted in this thread. My +0 CR Gelatinous Cube that breaks the spirit of the game.
** spoiler omitted **...
If they have any magical power, it probably would be a result of them being sorcerers (with appropriately-adjusted Charisma). I don't really see them pouring over books much...
Now, gelatinous clerics... what god would they worship?
Also, stealing that cube you posted ;)
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If I was to be convinced to add levels to a gelatinous cube, I'd probably spin it in the game as the cube being a sort of magical mutation. If I was to leave it mindless, I'd probably assume that it was just permeated with magic and occasionally those spells kind of bubbled to the top and it would deliver them through it's natural attacks.
Just created a new DM feat for you Ash...
-Shining A Dumpling (DM Feat): This DM feat allows a DM to take a terri-bad or idiotic/joke idea and make something fun or interesting.
Hats off to you Sir/Madam/Other!
Btw, maybe a Magus would also be a good combo - Spellstrike + pseudopod!
CR 17 Mariliths are pretty severely underpowered.This 1000 times. I really like the Marilith, but they get mud stomped every time. I do intend to get around to fixing them one day.
edit: I think the idea of average attacks per CR makes the "to hit" bonus low. That is the problem with the hydra also.
Speaking of over/under CR'd monsters, Nicos got really angry one day when I mentioned a fast zombie hydra.
Lots of bites + 2 slams + faster + slightly stronger Str/Dex. It's truly a magnificent beast. :P
I meant to say average damage per CR not attacks, but I think you knew what I meant.. :)
Ashiel, remember that your standard of running fiends is converting treasure to gear, and shifting feats to make them more dangerous. Yeah, that alone raises the CR over the core fiends by +2-3, right there.
So, it's not 'If a GM knows what they are doing.' You're also customizing monsters that are by their nature mass-produced. That changes a lot right there.
By the rules, a Druid Gelatinious Cube is restricted exactly as any other spellcaster, from Treant to Giant to Elemental. They become a normal animal, with no special template i.e. gelatinious/ooze
==Aelryinth
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Ok, all kidding aside - take a look at that Fiendish Gelatinous Cube I posted earlier.
This is an example of tweaking a creature within legal guidelines (RAW) but I got popped by Ross for trying to break RAI. In other words, unfairly redlining on the cheap.
I wouldn't use this cube as replacement for the standard Gelatinous Cube in game, I may use this little guy in a dungeon with an evil temple, where sacrificial bodies and members of the cult have been dumped down a pit (sometimes alive) where this thing lives. The fiendish template being a residual effect of all the evil carcasses it has consumed (as sort of a unique situation).
Sure it's still a CR 3 creature - but does it's weak resistances, SR and smite (that just adds damage) take it out of CR 3 - as a one off creature?
Not using gear and changing feats makes the marilith even worse. A level 10 party can roll it over fairly easily.
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Repeated attacks get weighted heavy it seems by the CR system, and perhaps unjustifiably. The 12 headed Pyro Hydra was kind of a 'let down' and nonsense at the same time.
12 breath weapons is a horror show for the non-evasive people (even if they make the saves), but the 12 attacks hit pretty hard but at absolutely pathetic damage (A summoner dealt with it almost effortlessly by pulling in huge earth elementals, whose DR 10 let them tank the physical attacks to the point of pointlessness, even as they got roasted by the breath weapon).
Summoners kind of show how certain things can hit above their weight class in the right situations. I've seen hamatulas evaporate under summoned bralani and their damned high crit range weapons.
Not using gear and changing feats makes the marilith even worse. A level 10 party can roll it over fairly easily.
With the right buffs up and correct gear, sure.
Just dropped in on them? Have to be a pretty dumb marilith.
==Aelryinth
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Ashiel, remember that your standard of running fiends is converting treasure to gear, and shifting feats to make them more dangerous. Yeah, that alone raises the CR over the core fiends by +2-3, right there.
So, it's not 'If a GM knows what they are doing.' You're also customizing monsters that are by their nature mass-produced. That changes a lot right there.
==Aelryinth
Monster's being "mass produced" sits uncomfortably with me, I must admit.
I see the bestiary as providing examples of particular creatures, not rigid templates.
If swapping one feat for another changes the CR for a monster, then it also changes the level of a PC.
If PCs can customise their characters as much as they like and still be considered the same level in the whole APL vs CR balance check, then the same has to hold true for monsters.
I also think that the CR of a monster should allow it to use its equipment.
Perhaps the best way to decided whether a monster is over or under CRd is to compare it with a PC of the appropriate level, appropriately customised (!) and appropriately equipped.
Richard
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Perhaps the best way to decided whether a monster is over or under CRd is to compare it with a PC of the appropriate level, appropriately customised (!) and appropriately equipped.
Not to be pedantic, but they have appropriate CR when compared to /four/ PCs of the appropriate level of the old classic four classes.
Challenge Ratings, APL, and WBL aren't sciences because I think we can all agree different PCs, classes, situations, environments, etc all contribute to how difficult the baddies are. (If I throw a sorcerer who focused entirely on fire spells up against opponents dripping in fire resistance, he's going to have a bad time even if the CR Math matches up right).
The math also has trouble based on issues like the opportunity cost, speed, the locations being engaged with, suppositions, availability of healing, the locale, etc.
You could probably write a damn study on the stuff for a term paper in statistics, but you'd need to explain where all your numbers come from.
Also keep in mind, one person's appropriately customized is another person's 'unoptimized,' or a third person's 'mathfinder bulls#!t.'
Also synergy starts working in (that organization part of the monster that people tend to ignore).
I admit that I find standard humanoids (kobolds, orcs, etc) to become pointless after a certain point as their standard organization means most of them top out at like 5th level or so.
I've been debating starting to use the Troop template to represent when you have like 60 bog standard warrior 1 orc around though so they stay a threat.
Not using gear and changing feats makes the marilith even worse. A level 10 party can roll it over fairly easily.With the right buffs up and correct gear, sure.
Just dropped in on them? Have to be a pretty dumb marilith.
==Aelryinth
If it doesn't have equipment how can the marilith prepare, and why is it wearing pounds of valuable jewelry/MMO loot for the party to get after the battle?
edit: The troop subtype is literally the best thing to happen to the hobby in forever.
Ashiel, remember that your standard of running fiends is converting treasure to gear, and shifting feats to make them more dangerous. Yeah, that alone raises the CR over the core fiends by +2-3, right there.
So, it's not 'If a GM knows what they are doing.' You're also customizing monsters that are by their nature mass-produced. That changes a lot right there.
==Aelryinth
Monster's being "mass produced" sits uncomfortably with me, I must admit.
It's also canon with some of them (particularly demons, who are mass-produced by the Abyss itself).
Mumy
Ashiel, remember that your standard of running fiends is converting treasure to gear, and shifting feats to make them more dangerous. Yeah, that alone raises the CR over the core fiends by +2-3, right there.
False in every way. Changing feats and/or equipment on a monster doesn't change it's CR at all. Adding PC wealth is +1 CR. However, sorry, monsters use their treasure all the time. Notice the Maralith...
Treasure double (6 mwk longswords, other treasure)
Feats do not change CR.
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Not using gear and changing feats makes the marilith even worse. A level 10 party can roll it over fairly easily.With the right buffs up and correct gear, sure.
Just dropped in on them? Have to be a pretty dumb marilith.
==Aelryinth
If it doesn't have equipment how can the marilith prepare, and why is it wearing pounds of valuable jewelry/MMO loot for the party to get after the battle?
edit: The troop subtype is literally the best thing to happen to the hobby in forever.
It's treasure, not gear. And it's treasure the creature has, not that it is wearing.
Because, as was noted, it can't take it with itself. 50 pounds, that's all. And no item creation feats to customize, tyvm. And visiting the local mages and buying the stuff? Yeah, that'll happen.
I'm of the opinion monster loot should be loot, not gear. It's what they happen to have after killing/manipulating/acquiring stuff randomly, and what's left after using what they could. Yes, if there's something usable and portable, they should take to wearing it, if they are smart and can identify what it is.
But having customized gear? Sure, a PC will do that. But we're talking devils and demons who probably get new loot only to watch it get destroyed or stolen some time within the next century, and just sort of sigh and commit to not bothering with such transient stuff.
I mean, come one, if we're talking loot accumulation, any immortal outsider should be worth millions if they had any interest in acquiring wealth and belongings whatsoever. But such things have very little value to something as motile and concerned with other planar politics.
Meh. Just my take on the situation.
==Aelryinth
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I'm with Ashiel on this one.
I'm not an optimizer DM by any standard of the term, but I am besides myself with the ethic that a monster shouldn't use the stuff in his gear pile.
Where I part from Ashiel is that I don't think the gear should be entirely cherry picked to benefit the monster. The treasure is still ultimately intended as loot for the party and I think the best method of treasure generation is random.
That +2 anarchic siangham should be just as useless to the hellknight as to the party's paladin who kills him and takes his stuff.
I admit part of this though is the sick delight I get when the party gets angry at a monster for 'drinking their potions,' or watching the party deal with the orc who's desperately trying to get some use out of his +1 flaming nunchaku.
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Ashiel, remember that your standard of running fiends is converting treasure to gear, and shifting feats to make them more dangerous. Yeah, that alone raises the CR over the core fiends by +2-3, right there.False in every way. Changing feats and/or equipment on a monster doesn't change it's CR at all. Adding PC wealth is +1 CR. However, sorry, monsters use their treasure all the time. Notice the Maralith...
Treasure double (6 mwk longswords, other treasure)
Feats do not change CR.
Ash, come on.
BY THE RULES, such things don't change CR.
But realistically, if you take a marilith, and make all her weapons +1 Human bane, that has a tremendous impact on her combat capability.
If you take 10,000 gp of her loot and convert that into small + AC items and consumables, that has a huge effect on her stats.
Raising an NPC's gear to PC gear levels is a + CR raise, because it raises stats. But monsters don't have gear, unless specifically cited and included in their stats (note how the marilith's longswords are computed into her stats, DPR, etc).
If you suddenly give them gear, stats change, CR goes up.
And again, if you adjust feats, you drastically change what a creature is capable of. By the book, no, it won't change the CR...but realistically? The effect of a few feat changes can have a massive effect on how devastating a foe can be...as you've pointed out with your own examples. Get rid of the junk feats and give them other stuff, and suddenly they are hugely dangerous...effectively higher CR.
Remember that CR isn't just numbers...it is as much intuition as logic. Your very own examples provide proof of that. What you're trying to argue is the 'O CR Adjustment Template' argument, where some minor template added to a creature has this huge effect on it because of some devastating synergies. You're trying to argue the same thing, using feats, and we all know better.
'Non-optimized marilith' vs 'optimized marilith' is going to be freaking sad, yet they operate within the same base confines. Trying to argue this isn't really a de facto CR change is not going to sail through.
==Aelryinth
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I view the "stock" monsters as more of a general guideline than "run as written." My own personal guideline is that if a monster has less than around 6 INT or so, I don't bother adding class levels. Anything higher than that is fair game, though, because that puts it at the general area a PC with a -2 INT racial stat could dump to.
Unless a monster is super-specific (try saying that 10 times fast), I view the stock monsters as "commoners" of their society. Even the most primitive of societies have warriors, adepts, and experts in various areas. Heck, even many animal species have them as well, like ants (well maybe not adepts, but still)!
I also view monster treasure as fair game to be used. Nobody is just going to be hauling around a bunch of coins naked.
So add a level of warrior on that troll! Give him a Large longspear, chainmail, and Power Attack!
:)
Gloves start coming off when you start adding class levels. There's real reason you're supposed to provide gear for those. PC levels, to equal monster benefits, are SUPPOSED to come with gear.
But those can be wasted, too. Check out the marilith general in the last book of the RoW AP. Eight feats spent on Exotic Weapon Proficiency...yeah, a good use of being a Fighter/7, to be sure.
===Aelryinth
It's treasure, not gear. And it's treasure the creature has, not that it is wearing.
Because, as was noted, it can't take it with itself. 50 pounds, that's all. And no item creation feats to customize, tyvm. And visiting the local mages and buying the stuff? Yeah, that'll happen.
I'm of the opinion monster loot should be loot, not gear. It's what they happen to have after killing/manipulating/acquiring stuff randomly, and what's left after using what they could. Yes, if there's something usable and portable, they should take to wearing it, if they are smart and can identify what it is.
But having customized gear? Sure, a PC will do that. But we're talking devils and demons who probably get new loot only to watch it get destroyed or stolen some time within the next century, and just sort of sigh and commit to not bothering with such transient stuff.
I mean, come one, if we're talking loot accumulation, any immortal outsider should be worth millions if they had any interest in acquiring wealth and belongings whatsoever. But such things have very little value to something as motile and concerned with other planar politics.
Meh. Just my take on the situation.
==Aelryinth
I'm sorry that I'm not interested in playing Final Fantasy for loot drops.
The issue is why on earth does a monster have that wealth if not for active use? If it is any sort of "personal wealth" that's used to say pay for their evil fort and living expenses, then why is it in forms that players can use by rolling on a table? The treasure value doesn't represent all of the vast property owned by enemies because most of their property will be in things the PCs can't use. In addition to that double standard treasure the marilith likely has some manner of property in the Abyss, soul stones, larva, manes, and all other sorts of things that are valuable to the demon, but or little to no use to PCs and most likely not even on the same plane of existance. Deskari's treasure value doesn't account for his armies, or forges, or anything else that's used for running hist demonic realm because it's worthless to note in a stat block. All the stat block is accounting for is wealth they have on their person or very nearby, and all of that should be things they would logically have while "on the job" unless the PCs have ambushed them at their homes.
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It's treasure, not gear. And it's treasure the creature has, not that it is wearing.
Because, as was noted, it can't take it with itself. 50 pounds, that's all. And no item creation feats to customize, tyvm. And visiting the local mages and buying the stuff? Yeah, that'll happen.
We might be coming at this from totally different directions, i.e. game vs world.
Demons going to mages and buying stuff seems perfectly reasonable to me. Here in the UK we have lots of arms manufacturers who sell their weapons to whoever wants them if they can pay the price.
If monsters are just sprites on a fantasy game board, then if the rules say it's treasure, not equipment, fair enough.
If we're giving our monsters autonomy and allowing them to act as their intelligence suggests, then they'll have the appropriate equipment.
If demons and devils don't bother with loot because they're so long-lived, then neither should elves.
And I know we've been round this before, but wealth should be a direct correlation to CR if CR is a direct measure of power. It isn't proportional, funnily enough, which is a bit of an anomaly. If the world balanced out then a CR 3 creature (or PC) should have twice as much wealth as a CR 1. If it has more then it becomes sensible for 2 or more CR 1 creatures to kill it and take its loot.
Richard
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I noted the answer to that post above. Remember to many monsters, what we call 'loot' is transitive and not valuable. It's also liken to be stolen, destroyed, actively used, wasted, ignored and the like.
Demons aren't people. Seriously, if they were intent on accumulating wealth...well, they can live FOREVER. Stick them on a prime material world and over a millennium they'll be sickly wealthy.
But mortal wealth has no great appeal for them, and it slips through their fingers. For monsters, it tends to get redistributed by favors, theft, destruction, misplacement, or the like.
Turning wealth into gear is NOT what the treasure is for. It'd be called out like NPC gear was, if that was so. So, turning loot into equipment drastically raises the challenge level of ANYTHING, right off the bat.
==Aelryinth
And note elves are mortals, not immortal monsters, and they get class levels, not more monster hit dice. They have mortal motivations that monsters of many kinds just don't have.
And, as a counter argument, how many elves do you know that have massive amounts of wealth accumulated, just because they are long-lived? :) They save and spend just like everyone else, and don't have a 50 lb restriction like a teleporting demon who is as self-destructive to their own stuff as anything else likely is.
==Aelryinth
I noted the answer to that post above. Remember to many monsters, what we call 'loot' is transitive and not valuable. It's also liken to be stolen, destroyed, actively used, wasted, ignored and the like.
Demons aren't people. Seriously, if they were intent on accumulating wealth...well, they can live FOREVER. Stick them on a prime material world and over a millennium they'll be sickly wealthy.
But mortal wealth has no great appeal for them, and it slips through their fingers. For monsters, it tends to get redistributed by favors, theft, destruction, misplacement, or the like.
Turning wealth into gear is NOT what the treasure is for. It'd be called out like NPC gear was, if that was so. So, turning loot into equipment drastically raises the challenge level of ANYTHING, right off the bat.
==Aelryinth
If they don't care about wealth why do they have it on them at all? Why is it listed in their statblock? Why would they favor randomized wealth they can't use to practical things that make them better at their job?
Because they have it? It naturally comes to them, and then gets wasted/used/ignored/spent, as powerful things are wont to do with not-valuable valuables?
Consider how many weapons a marilith is likely to go through over her career. She'll lose them to sundering, to theft, to wear and tear, to combat, blah blah blah. Every time she fails a saving throw against a reflex save, she likely loses a piece of gear. After a hundred years of warfare, she just wouldn't care. It would all be transient, right? And for the older demons, even moreso. Unless it's particularly valuable or a constant, and so included in their stat block, it just comes and goes.
==Aelryinth
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I'm with Ashiel on this one.
I'm not an optimizer DM by any standard of the term, but I am besides myself with the ethic that a monster shouldn't use the stuff in his gear pile.
Where I part from Ashiel is that I don't think the gear should be entirely cherry picked to benefit the monster. The treasure is still ultimately intended as loot for the party and I think the best method of treasure generation is random.
That +2 anarchic siangham should be just as useless to the hellknight as to the party's paladin who kills him and takes his stuff.
I admit part of this though is the sick delight I get when the party gets angry at a monster for 'drinking their potions,' or watching the party deal with the orc who's desperately trying to get some use out of his +1 flaming nunchaku.
Well, monsters are smart. I don't know why they wouldn't. I actually wrote about this on my blog and I used the Maralith as an example.
Let's imagine for a moment if this stupid and absurd idea actually plays out in a game. If all creatures only use the same equipment as all other creatures of their kind, and never use their magic items. Now the Gamemastering section specifically suggests throwing assorted magic items, potions, wands, and the like into the game as treasure. Treasure typically comes from fighting and defeating monsters/NPCs with said treasure. In essence, the age old "kill badguys and take their stuff" that RPGs are known for.
Now let's imagine that you encounter a Marilith. A mighty six-armed tauric-like woman with the upper half of a human, and the lower half of a giant serpent. She leads whole demon armies as a general. She is one of the most powerful types of creatures in the whole universe. An entire city may tremble should one of these incredibly powerful and tactically brilliant demons turn her gaze upon them and find them undesirable. Now imagine that you are to fight this creature...
She charges headfirst into combat naked save for 6 mundane swords made of common iron. After being dispatched, she suddenly has 64,000 gold pieces worth of loot on her. But she was naked just a moment ago, save for her piddly mundane swords. Where the hell did 64,000 gold pieces worth of treasure come from? She wasn't wearing anything. I mean, if you want to argue that they only get what's specifically listed in the bestiary verbatim (and ignore that they are supposed to possess other treasures besides the 6 swords due to their treasure value), then they have no clothing with pockets. They have no satchel to carry their goods in. Even if you assumed that it was just in jewelry and assorted piercings, that would mean this woman is wearing about 1,280 pounds of gold on her body (roughly equivalent to wearing medium to heavy armor in terms of her carrying capacity, despite both her size and demonic strength). Which leads us to wonder...
"Just try it..."WTF is her treasure? Suddenly, the moment of truth dawns on you, and your stomach churns for a moment. It's time for a full-body cavity search. Clearly, this crazy demoness had decided that instead of wielding her +X magic items, assorted gemstones, magical baubles, scrolls, wands, staffs, and potions, she must have ingested them, and/or her various orifices double as storage compartments. Imagine the look on the heroes' faces as they pull a magic staff out of her snake-like rectum, or that +2 flaming greatsword out of her ear.
Then one must wonder, why the hell did she have all this cool stuff shoved so far up her posterior that she could have used against the heroes of the world in their climactic encounter, instead of 6 mundane swords that are no better than the common drivel that your typical orc prances around with. What a very strange fetish that...
Here I give an example of what I think is fair.
Here's an example. The default Ogre Mage is CR 8 with "Double" standard treasure. That means that he has 6,700 gp worth of goods on him at any given time. The default entry simply gives him enough equipment to function right out of the gate. He has a mundane greatsword, a bow, and a chain shirt. That's barely over 1,000 gp worth of equipment. Leaving him roughly 5,700 gp worth of treasures to have on hand. Now as is the norm, the treasure is generally divided up in goods that seems reasonable for this terrible super intelligent ogre-demon thing to have on hand. Now beyond just being boring, carrying all that as coin would impractical. That's about 114 lbs. of gold coins. That would get irritating I think. A more reasonable spread might look like this...
Treasure: Double [chain shirt, greatsword, composite (+7) longbow, +1 amulet of natural armor (2,000 gp), +1 ring of protection (2,000 gp), +1 cloak of resistance (1,000 gp), oil of magic weapon x3 (150 gp), bag of 25 quartz gems (0.5 lbs., 250 gp), assorted jewelry such as rings, piercings, and armlets (250 gp), 500 silver pieces (10 lb., 50 gp)]
Now, the problem comes in when people cry foul when the ogre magi is wearing his equipment. Naturally, this intelligent creature would don his +1 items, because he owns them and it is in his best interest to wield them. If he instead had a +1 greatsword, he wouldn't be wielding his mundane one. "But that makes him stronger!" they wail. "That's not fair!" they shout. "You should get extra XP since he was better than normal!" another voice throws in. I disagree. The treasure value is the treasure value for that creature. If you're following the rules for placing treasure in your games, then the treasure is not going to overpower the enemy, or warrant a higher challenge rating. Likewise, you open up tons of Fridge Logic problems. If the Ogre Mage was so big and bad and smart, then why was he fighting effectively naked when he had an arsenal of magical defensive items in his bag? Hmm...?
The full post can be found here: We Do A Full Body Cavity Search on the Demoness.
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Life span has no relation to wealth.
If you're not powerful to keep it, it doesn't matter how often you accumulate it someone is going to take it off you.
You *could* argue that creatures with long life spans ought to be CR 100+, if they've managed to survive that long, and so have the appropriate wealth.
But then you might conversely argue that the chances of surviving all that violence means they'll be very very rare.
Or they'll have spent all their time digging trenches in the Abyss rather than doing the things which increase their power and wealth with it.
I kind of go for the latter.
As for the bottom line on whether gear should change the CR of a creature, it depends on whether that CR reflects the creature without wealth or with it.
Is a CR 7 Hill Giant in hide armour with a club the equivalent in power to a Level 7 PC fully equipped?
Even roughly?
Or does the Hill Giant need its equipment to make the mark?
Richard
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and the counter, Ashiel, is that treasure is not gear. If the gear was a constant monsters are supposed to have, it would be reflected in their stats.
it is not.
Turning their treasure into their gear is NOT a reflection of the constant monster, and rapidly raises CR. You've effectively given him a Template for +0 CR. Your above ogre mage has +2 AC, +7 Damage on ranged attacks, +1 on saves, and +1 th/dmg with all attacks.
none of which is reflected in his stats, which determine his CR.
Monsters aren't NPCs. IF you're going to do this, then you need to adjust CR, because you're choosing to presume something that isn't true. It doesn't take a lot of cash to do slight number adjustments that blow CR out of the water. +1/+8 on ranged attacks is virtually tripling that Ogre Mage's ranged damage waaaaay above his CR level, for instance.
Ignoring that point of balance is going to quickly create some overpowered stuff, as has been proven every time you add a template for nothing. Treasure to gear for nothing is going to have much the same effect.
==Aelryinth
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Because they have it? It naturally comes to them, and then gets wasted/used/ignored/spent, as powerful things are wont to do with not-valuable valuables?
Consider how many weapons a marilith is likely to go through over her career. She'll lose them to sundering, to theft, to wear and tear, to combat, blah blah blah. Every time she fails a saving throw against a reflex save, she likely loses a piece of gear. After a hundred years of warfare, she just wouldn't care. It would all be transient, right? And for the older demons, even moreso. Unless it's particularly valuable or a constant, and so included in their stat block, it just comes and goes.
==Aelryinth
Okay so the 18 in Int is ignored because she's an outsider, which apparently means "flagrantly stupid". For a thought exercise imagine you don't value anything material as wealth is no object to you, but you're still beholden to specific individuals who can order to around. They ask you to assemble a shed in their backyard. When going to do this job do you take a hammer and other tools to accomplish the job or a bundle or gaudy dollar store jewelry? More importantly your car is really really gas inefficient so you have to only carry 50 pounds of tools, do you persist in bringing the worthless jewelry?
Do you see the point at all? Even someone who wealth is "transient" (despite repeated mentions of fiends caring about material possessions and having a soul trade) tools can be needed for a given job. The marilith doesn't carry around +2 longswords because she really super likes them, hell she might have just picked them up this morning from a forgefiend, but she is using them to get her job done (kill the PCs). The treasure, which the statblock dictates she has, is what she has right now. It should be things that she'd have an actual reason to be holding onto. Maybe she isn't going to be holding onto them for very long but for right now. The mariliths are ancient experts at war they should be able to recognize good equipment versus bad equipment and know which one to use. Just because a knight from an immensely wealthy family doesn't really understand wealth because money is no object to him doesn't mean he goes into battle with a frying pan and football pads (what nonmagical weapons really are at level 15-17).