|Darigaaz the Igniter|
|4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.|
Does casting Instant Enemy on a creature let you use the native terrain of common examples of that creature type for Terrain Dominance?
Example 1: I cast Instant Enemy on a Red Dragon to make it count as Humanoid(Aquatic). Can I use my Terrain Dominance(Aquatic) to get bonuses against it? Since all printed aquatic humanoids are native to the aquatic terrain.
Example 2: I cast Instant Enemy on a Dire Tiger to count it as Humanoid(Gnoll). Currently, the only creature printed of that type is the Gnoll, which is native to Warm Plains and Deserts. Can I then use Terrain Dominance(Deserts) to get bonuses against it?
Example 3: I cast Instant Enemy on a Gelatinous Cube to count it as an Outsider(Fire). Can I use Terrain Dominance(Plane of Fire) to get bonuses against it?
|Darigaaz the Igniter|
I'm posting this because of the debate that started here.
My personal stance is that even RAW; No, changing a creature's effective creature type does not change what native terrain it comes from, therefore Terrain Dominance does not activate.
Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger selects a creature type from the ranger favored enemies table. He gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival checks against creatures of his selected type. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon attack and damage rolls against them. A ranger may make Knowledge skill checks untrained when attempting to identify these creatures.
At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the ranger may select an additional favored enemy. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by +2.
If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table below. (Note that there are other types of humanoid to choose from—those called out specifically on the table below are merely the most common.) If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the ranger's bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher.
Instant Enemy With this spell you designate the target as your favored enemy for the remainder of its duration. Select one of your favored enemy types. For the duration of the spell, you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes.
Terrain Dominance: At 3rd level, a horizon walker learns total dominance over one terrain he has already selected for terrain mastery. When dealing with creatures native to that terrain, the horizon walker treats his favored terrain bonus for that terrain as a favored enemy bonus (as the ranger class feature) against those creatures.This bonus overlaps (does not stack with) bonuses gained when fighting a favored enemy.
Each terrain dominance grants additional abilities, detailed below. When the horizon walker gains a new terrain dominance he may, if he prefers, instead pick an additional terrain mastery.
Creature Types Each creature has one type, which broadly defines its abilities. Some creatures also have one or more subtypes. A creature cannot violate the rules of its subtype without a special ability or quality to explain the difference—templates can often change a creature's type drastically.
I certainly can't find any creature types that say "always native to this terrain". The closest I can find are ones like Agathion or Devil, but those are not valid choices for Favored Enemy.
|Darigaaz the Igniter|
Word association does not change RAW and everyone on the other thread who was trying to pull that on your cogent argument has said as much vehemently in the past.
As you aptly framed it:
"I'd be happy to change my stance if you can quote me some relevant rules text I missed, but as it stands
Favored Enemy only cares about what creature type you are
Instant Enemy only lets you count something as a different creature type
Terrain Dominance cares about what terrain the creature is native to
Native Terrain is not a property of creature type"
Te rest is obfuscation of kids wanting candy till one can quote an additional premise from RAW.
To be devil's advocate in one post or less:
"For the duration of the spell, you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes."
'For all purposes' is pretty inclusive.
Personally from me it's a no though, even with the above text. Instant enemy specifically calls out favoured enemy. Terrain dominance is explicitly not favoured enemy , but gives you identical bonuses against enemies native to your terrain type. I don't see how you could even cast instant enemy to modify the bonus given from terrain dominance, or why it would matter if so.
Come on it is what it is. The same people that argue for RAW flippin to argue for a logical/sensible reading is pretty amazing. As is the smoke screen of derailment posts when someone has a good point. Bemusing, amusing and worth verbally noting for once instead of just laughing and judging.
RAW flipping and logical/sensible reading? What's wrong with subscribing to both? I know Shield Master is busted as written. I run it "sensibly." Pretending it isn't busted as written is idiotic. RAW Planar Binding and Geas is a completely legal thing and grossly overpowered.
There's a no difference in knowing precisely what the RAW says and making connections based on that.
Pointedly, the book says you treat the foe as though they were that type for all purposes. All printed Humanoid(Aquatic) creatures are native to water. So the Ranger treating them as Humanoid(Aquatic) should be getting his Terrain Dominance since he treats them as that type for all purposes. If all Humanoid(Aquatic) creatures are native to water then treating them as if they were that type should work.
The only thing to argue is what all purposes is implying.
Just a Quick question do we assume that a creature that have a given envioment on its profile like(Environment tropical forests)is automaticly native to the terrain that this Fall under?
And if yes is a human then automaticly native to any terrain?
Is it the fact that even the most far of farm is a building and most humanoids live in some sort of house that make it so great?
I'm going to +1 Scavion's point.
1) RAW legal, non-abusive, and probably RAI
2) RAW is legal but abusive, RAI is obvious
3) RAW is murky, RAI is obvious
4) RAW is murky, RAI is murky
is very important to the game, especially as a GM. I make a lot of judgment calls, even ones that are 100% RAW might not be legal in my game.
However, for hard rules questions, we need to not take that into account. All we're asking for is the actual RAW interpretation of the rules. And as far as I can tell, this one is pretty murky in both RAW and RAI. Should this be FAQed?
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My thoughts on it after reading instant enemy and Favored Enemy are that the spell makes the creature count as your favored enemy for all purposes that favored enemy grants you.
That's just the best way I can view it. If your favored enemy is Goblinoids and you cast this on a dragon, then you get the weapon damage bonus, the skill bonuses, the tracking bonus, etc. I know, just because a fish counts as a goblinoid suddenly your skill at picking up goblin tracks makes it easier to track it through water, seems weird.
The only one I might restrict, and this would be a DM call, might be the ability to make untrained Knowledge checks against a creature. Technically it should work, but I can't see a party coming up against some unknown creature, let's say it's a slug (animal). Well, none of them have Knowledge (nature) for some reason. The ranger casts instant enemy to make it into a Construct (one of his favored enemies). Now he asks for an untrained check and because of his knowledge of constructs he figures out that it's a slug? Does he think it's immune to mind-effecting and Fortitude saves as well because it's clearly a Construct to him?
I would have problems allowing the spell to function beyond Favored Enemy bonuses. Take for example, if you choose Favored Enemy: Outsider (Fire). You come upon a Frost giant (Humanoid: giant). You cast instant enemy, suddenly you claim that your [cold] spells do extra damage because to you it counts as a fire subtype creature and fire subtype creatures have cold vulnerability. Alternately, casting the same situation involving a white dragon would suddenly make it immune to your fire spells, because it would be fire subtype, but only against you. Weird.
Also, with some dipping into cleric, you could take Favored Enemy: Undead then go around casting instant enemy on everyone around you, commoners and dragons and then using your channel powers to damage or even turn and control people. Almost no actual undead creatures are going to have turn resistance, so basically an evil or negative channeler can start controlling anything around them. Debatable if the command ends when they stop counting as Undead or if they only had to count as Undead when you land the control.
Any way, it could get messy. I would stick with just giving instant enemy the Favored Enemy bonuses.
|Darigaaz the Igniter|
The issue here is Terrain Dominance giving "his favored terrain bonus for that terrain as a favored enemy bonus" against creature native to that terrain, and whether RAW/RAI you can use Instant Enemy to turn that on. Especially if you're somehow casting Instant Enemy when you don't have the Favored Enemy class feature.
I still think it's clearly no, but obviously some other people are harder to convince.
Also reading instant enemy again nothing in it would make the target a specific ltype of the favoured enemy.
So if I have terrain dominance jungle and cast instant enemy the target doesn't become the specific jungle dwelling tree climbing goblin.
Neither does instant enemy animal and terrain dominant ce Arctic? Make them a snow shoe hare.