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I'm not trying to provoke Druid-lovers into debate...
I'm not trying to entice you to convince me otherwise...
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For the last six years, I have played PFRPG exclusively:
Three Adventure Paths completed, two playing and one as GM.
In my KM campaign, I had one play to 16th level. She was mostly flavor and build, so no min/max or power play. The second is currently playing in my Wardens of the Newborn Forge game, started at 12th level and is 100% optimized for power play. He tanks better than our fighter, has an impossible to hit AC and is immune to critical hits.
The Druid class experienced a complete metamorphosis from 3.5 to PF.
In DnD it was primarily a flavor class. In PF it has become an unparalleled power house of imbalance!
* Wild Shaping into 3x3 elemental/creatures at high level is pure stupidity and continues to ruin every encounter by allowing the player to ignore spacial constraints and the setting's design. If I wanted a monster in the party, I would have allowed the Summoner class!
In the past, I was fine with banning some of the newer (APG) classes that Paizo created. Now it's the Druid's turn to get pummeled with the ban-hammer. Moving forward, I will never again allow a Druid beyond 10th level in any of my games. They are completely off the negotiating table for AP play, unless the player is willing to give up the Wild Shape ability.
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In DnD it was primarily a flavor class.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHANO.
CoDzilla is not a Pathfinder thing.
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Yeah, I remember the days when all-druid parties would take over entire nations... Ah, the lovely days of 3.5.
The Druid class experienced a complete metamorphosis from 3.5 to PF.
In DnD it was primarily a flavor class. In PF it has become an unparalleled power house of imbalance!
That's....a bit of an overstatement. Overreaction. Etc. Sure, Druid is a high tier class. But all of the full progression prepared casters are. Wild shape is not the most powerful part of a druid. Not by far. Make sure your players are actually using it properly.
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Yeah, I remember the days when all-druid parties would take over entire nations... Ah, the lovely days of 3.5.
Well, in pathfinder they still can. Like any other full casters, they have ultimate power in their grasp. They're just slightly less crazy about wild shape.
In pathfinder they can still turn into raptors on flying t-rexes that shoot lazers from their eyes and summon cats to throw at people with pounce! I don't know if that's overpowered or just too cool.
Nah. They tried that in PF, they would get taken out by the wizards and their enslaved mind-controlled fighter legions.
Nah. They tried that in PF, they would get taken out by the wizards and their enslaved mind-controlled fighter legions.
Its cool, I've got a flying t-rex that shoots lazer beams from its eyes behind a wind wall.
Or... Maybe they should combine their power. Why waste their time fighting eachother? Together they can overthrow the Oracleric empire. They aren't the only fullcasters in the world after all!
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Did somebody say 3.5? That's where a gnome shadowcrafts a simulacrum after fusing with a psion... gestalt without gestalt. At level 10 (I think) red wizards start every day with a caster level of 40 before buffs. And a druid with draconic wild shape can have the stats of a huge dragon, but only the supernatural abilities of medium dragons... or something like that.
. . . Wild Shaping into 3x3 elemental/creatures at high level is pure stupidity and continues to ruin every encounter by allowing the player to ignore spacial constraints and the setting's design. If I wanted a monster in the party, I would have allowed the Summoner class! . . . .
Oh... have a goblin with silence cast on an immovable rod jump in his mouth and activate the rod when he hits the stomach. It's like a suicide debuffer.
Nah. They tried that in PF, they would get taken out by the wizards and their enslaved mind-controlled fighter legions.Its cool, I've got a flying t-rex that shoots lazer beams from its eyes behind a wind wall.
Or... Maybe they should combine their power. Why waste their time fighting eachother? Together they can overthrow the Oracleric empire. They aren't the only fullcasters in the world after all!
And they can celebrate the victory by roasting a rogue over an open fire!
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I'm not trying to provoke Druid-lovers into debate...
I'm not trying to entice you to convince me otherwise...
It astounds me the number of people who don't understand what a forum is for.
If you don't want people to discuss your topic, don't post it on an open forum. Simple as that. Posting something and saying "Oh yeah don't discuss it" is like going to a restaurant, giving your order to the waitress and then going "Also don't tell the cook what I ordered".
It defeats the entire purpose.
Sounds like the best way to solve this problem is lock druid to elves and humans and further restrict the class to using the racial archetypes. Either that or simply restrict druid choices to either archetype and racial requirements be damned:
Feral Child for humans completely removes wild shape in exchange for barbarian goodies.
Treesinger for elves locks wildshape to plants only.
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Might as well remove any caster with a spell list then. Oh, yeah, that's all of them.
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. . . Its also up to you to prevent inane horses*** like someone trying to use 8 greatswords as an octopus while levetating in a desert. Do not allow "the book doesn't say I can't" for the player to make you his b****.
What do you mean? It's a legacy thing. :)
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Its also up to you to prevent inane horses*** like someone trying to use 8 greatswords as an octopus while levetating in a desert.
A druid that's trying to use 8 greatswords as an flying octopus is going easy on you. His to hit will be awful anyway. The one that dips into monk with his cave druid and flurries as a ooze might be something else. Of course you could always have that guy that realized what ultimate power 9 levels of spells gives you.
I don't understand, what exactly happened?
. . . The second is currently playing in my Wardens of the Newborn Forge game, started at 12th level and is 100% optimized for power play. He tanks better than our fighter, has an impossible to hit AC and is immune to critical hits.
. . .
* Wild Shaping into 3x3 elemental/creatures at high level is pure stupidity and continues to ruin every encounter by allowing the player to ignore spacial constraints and the setting's design. If I wanted a monster in the party, I would have allowed the Summoner class! . . . .
I'm thinking he's surprised or upset that the druid fights better than fighter types in his game and ignores terrain.
I will never again allow a Druid beyond 10th level in any of my games.
I find that pretty ironic, considering that druids really peak at level 6 and kinda deteriorates from there. Instead, you should be more like "I will never allow druids below level 10!" :p
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If someone wants to be a druid in my game, I make prequisite for wildshape that before first shape into specific creature, the druid needs first live an one day with the creature he is shaping into, including 8 hours of rest. If the creature have any supernatural or spell-like powers, druid need to see them active, before he can try them self.
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That adds some realism, and works for a game that plays up from level 1, but what happens when a player wants to bring a higher level druid into an existing game?
There has to be some give and take on what are reasonable list of creatures the PC could have encountered in his career to date.
This also comes up a lot in games where the GM says "You can't know anything about this creature, can't even use Knowledge checks, till you meet it in game."
"Dude, it's a common monster, of low CR. Of course I know what it is. I couldn't have got to this level without fighting one."
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That adds some realism, and works for a game that plays up from level 1, but what happens when a player wants to bring a higher level druid into an existing game?
Make him write one animal/humanoid/plant from his current level and two from each of previous levels. For monstrous creatures and outsiders, he have to tell, how he get them and observe them safely for required time. If he wants more, allow him double that, but make sure that there are nasty rumours around of him.
Nothing is better than exgirlfriend, who keep complaining "and then one day I found him sleeping with rustmonster" and is still following him around. Bonus point if she is also a monster.
Well, in pathfinder they still can. Like any other full casters, they have ultimate power in their grasp. They're just slightly less crazy about wild shape.
Wild shape is not the most powerful part of a druid. Not by far. Make sure your players are actually using it properly.
Yeah, I remember the days when all-druid parties would take over entire nations... Ah, the lovely days of 3.5.
3.5 was FAR more imbalanced for Wild Shape than Pathfinder.
Can anyone tell me whether PF wild shape is more or less tame than 3.5 PHB2 shape shifting? That was my solution before 4e.
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In general? More tame. They cut a lot of the druid's power.
That said, druids still have some items that were really easy to abuse. Like the ability to wear full plate (though, this is less beneficial to them than it was in 3.5).
Not seeing any real downgrade to the druid in PF, except to melee combat while in wild shape (specifically). Druids got a lot of nice new spells in the PF splats, and as prepared full casters with access to their entire spell list, that's a huge boost -- in my opinion, more than enough to offset the wild shape nerf.
Most importantly, Natural Spell wasn't nerfed, so at low levels you can still fly around throwing spells down on your enemies, and at higher levels you can still spend a lot of your time earth gliding.
Can anyone tell me whether PF wild shape is more or less tame than 3.5 PHB2 shape shifting? That was my solution before 4e.
IMO, PF wildshape is more broken because of the types of bonuses and special abilities given. PHB2 wildshape is much more player friendly because its a swift action and can be turned off and on at will through a variety of forms, and it gave a slowly growing enhancement bonus and made your weapons magical for free.
The fact the bonuses for PF are size and the PHB2 are enhancement is a pretty big thing. PHB2 also won't turn you into a pouncecharger, though you should have access to at least 2 pseudo pounces through splat materials(travel devoution, lion totem barbarian). PHB2 also had a set natural attack for your wild shape form, while pathfinder allows you to get 20 if the creature allows. PHB2 wildshape variant probably could've used a bit of a buff in some areas, imo, or at least at early levels, and I think the natural armor could've scaled a little better.
Not seeing any real downgrade to the druid in PF, except to wild shape specifically. They got a lot of nice new spells in the PF splats, and as prepared full casters with access to their entire spell list, that's a huge boost -- in my opinion, more than enough to offset the wild shape nerf.
Most importantly, Natural Spell wasn't nerfed, so at low levels you can still fly around throwing spells down on your enemies, and at higher levels you can still spend a lot of your time earth gliding.
Wild shape and animal companion were both nerfed for druid. The wild shape nerf especially was huge. The PF spell selection is absolutely nothing compared to the 3.5 spell selection for druids, which included such wonders as rot of ages (no save concealment against target for 2 rounds with possibility of sickened/nausea, level 1 spell) and spells such as drown/entomb later on. Most importantly, PF druids lose access to prestige classes such as arcane heirophant and planar shepherd, the latter of which is considered to be one of, if not the most powerful prestige classe ever created,
Note that even with these nerfs I agree he is still a solid tier 1 caster, so i'm not really disagreeing with you that much at all.... just goes to show how strong the class really is I guess!
Also, to OP: you haven't had trouble with druids until you've faced an earth elemental shifting druid who sits underground and summons to defeat encounters risk free. Your 'combat monster' is still playing by the rules at least! The fact that you ban summoners who aren't even tier 1 makes me think you just aren't used to optimisation....
Not seeing any real downgrade to the druid in PF, except to melee combat while in wild shape (specifically). Druids got a lot of nice new spells in the PF splats, and as prepared full casters with access to their entire spell list, that's a huge boost -- in my opinion, more than enough to offset the wild shape nerf.
Most importantly, Natural Spell wasn't nerfed, so at low levels you can still fly around throwing spells down on your enemies, and at higher levels you can still spend a lot of your time earth gliding.
Well given the entire basis for 'codzilla' was the fact that a druid with an 8 strength and con could wildshape into a beasty with a 26 strength and con means just that is significant.
In terms of the power of its spell list? Compared to what? If we take the entire breadth of 3.5 druid spells (read:Spell compendium) vs the current pathfinder catelogue? I dont think its much of a difference. Unless there are specific spells you think are an issue?
As for natural spell being nerfed, since wildshaping is probably the most iconic element of the druid, it seems to me nerfing wildshape wouldnt be a good path. In all probability the druid should have 6 levels of spellcasting I think, but thats just me. If I were going to 'nerf' the druid in pathfinder, thats what I'd do I think, maybe making the summon natures ally spells to fit in the current progression as the primary modification to the 6 level list.
... In all probability the druid should have 6 levels of spellcasting I think, but thats just me. If I were going to 'nerf' the druid in pathfinder, thats what I'd do I think, maybe making the summon natures ally spells to fit in the current progression as the primary modification to the 6 level list.
I've always thought the cleric and druid should be hybrid level 6 spell caster classes since they have the medium BaB and HD.
Then there should be a couple other classes called something like priest and shepherd that would be pure casting classes for the divine and nature magic with low BaB and HD.
Not missing it at all. Our "Savage Tide" game saw a 3.5 Vow of Poverty druid wildshaped as a dire bear; she could kill nearly any melee opponent in 1 round. But the thing is, a druid is still a full caster. If you could only wild shape into a songbird or something, the druid would still be a Tier 1 class.
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I have two Druids at level 13 in my Kingmaker game.
Between the two of them, they completely destroyed the entire defences of Fort Drelev, between Wild Shape, Control Weather, Call Lightning, hordes of Nature's ally's they were bowling the soldiers like pins. Add stone skin and other defensive measures and they were akin to living WMDs.
It's nearly impossible to make a bad Druid, but it's incredibly easy to make an OP one.
But the same is true of Wizards, Witches, Clerics and Summoners. These are Tier 1 classes.
A Druid isn't impossible to challenge: Earthglide doesn't work through worked stone. Powerful enemies will focus fire on the Druid (as he's both a healer and a caster, two high value targets in one).
Anyway, the Justice League has Superman and a writer just needs to be aware of that.
When did Aquaman beat Supes?
I remember he gave Wonder Woman an ass whoopin' though.
Hook Hand Aquaman best Aquaman.
Refering to the original question, yes, a druid played well can be extremely powerful.
Just like any class, the player ultimately makes the character powerful.
How does banning a class past a certain level help?
I've seen a particular player dominate several games, regardless of whether he plays a fighter, a cleric, a sorcerer, or a goblin rogue.
And he's sharing the table with experienced players all doing "tier 1" classes.
And another player running only wizards who are marginal at best, delaying every round of combat while they decides what they should cast.
Players make the difference as does play style and table variation (especially house rules, money, and gear).
Personally, I love playing druids, so I admit I may be biased about bannig them.
to derail abit
A Druid isn't impossible to challenge: Earthglide doesn't work through worked stone.
Actually, it matters where you get the earth glide ability.
If it comes from the ability of the earth elemental, there is no restriction about worked stone.If your earth glide comes from another source, worked stone may or may not be prohibited.
Here's some quotes:
from the bestiary description of the earth elemental:
Earth Glide (Ex) A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing earth elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.
from the prd description of the spell:
Svirfneblin have access to the following spells.
The target can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water, traveling at a speed of 5 feet. If protected against fire damage, it can move through lava. This movement leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. It requires as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally, but cannot charge or run. Casting move earth on an area containing the target flings the target back 30 feet, stunning it for 1 round (DC 15 Fortitude negates). This spell does not give the target the ability to breathe underground, so when passing through solid material, the creature must hold its breath.
from the stone oracle:
Earth Glide (Su): You can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except worked stone and metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, you can even glide through lava. You glide at your base land speed. While gliding, you breathe stone as if it were air (you do not need to hold your breath). Your burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or sign of your presence. A move earth spell cast on an area where you are flings you back 30 feet, stunning you for 1 round unless you succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save. Activating this ability is a free action. You can glide for 1 minute per day per oracle level. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1-minute increments. You must be at least 7th level to select this revelation. You can bring other creatures with you when you glide, but each passenger costs an additional minute per minute of travel.
from the deep earth sorcerer:
Earth Glide (Ex): At 15th level, you can glide through any sort of natural earth or stone as easily as a fish swims through water, with a burrow speed equal to half your normal speed. You do not leave a tunnel or trace of your passage. You can use this ability for 1 minute per sorcerer level each day. The duration need not be continuous, but it must be used in 1-minute increments.
from the earth school wizard:
Earth Glide (Su): At 8th level, you gain the ability to move through earth, dirt, and stone for a number of rounds per day equal to your wizard level. You cannot move through worked earth or stone; only natural substances can be traversed. If your total duration expires before you exit the earth, you are flung back to the point where you entered the stone, take 4d6 points of damage, and are stunned for 1 round. Your burrowing does not leave a hole, nor does it give any sign of your presence (although you can be detected by creatures with tremorsense). These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
from the kobold bloodline:
Earth Glide (Su): At 15th level, you gain the earth glide universal monster ability with a speed equal to your base speed. This does not give you the ability to breathe while passing through earth, so you must hold your breath or use some alternate method to breathe while using this ability.
from the grey disciple:
Earth Glide (Su): At 12th level, as a swift action, the gray disciple can spend a ki point to walk through solid stone for 1 round. This functions as the earth glide universal monster ability. The gray disciple may continue earth gliding as long as he spends 1 ki point every round as a swift action. If he ceases earth gliding within a solid object, he is violently ejected and takes 5d6 points of damage. The gray disciple is not harmed by damage caused to material he is earth gliding through, but a stone to flesh spell cast upon it causes violent ejection as described above. This ability replaces abundant step.
from the universal monster ability:
Earth Glide (Ex) When the creature burrows, it can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing the burrowing creature flings it back 30 feet, stunning it for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.
Of course, this is up to individual DM's to determine if they want to limit earth glide so that all the user's have the same rules.
And if you want to open another can of worms, ask what happens when an earthgliding druid pins a foe and wants to move him undergroud and leave him there.
In DnD it was primarily a flavor class.HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHANO.
CoDzilla is not a Pathfinder thing.
Is there an actual PF codzilla druid, say 17th level give or take set of stats anywhere? Just to kill the cat of my academic curiosity?
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In DnD it was primarily a flavor class.HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHANO.
CoDzilla is not a Pathfinder thing.
Is there an actual PF codzilla druid, say 17th level give or take set of stats anywhere? Just to kill the cat of my academic curiosity?
As I said, multiclass druids are better at wild shape shenanigans in PF than the classic CoDzilla.
The Conqueror Ooze
Monktopus
Nudel, A Barb/Druid with a Massive hippo bite/
lol I think what's beautiful about monktopus is the alignment is explained: you just can't take more levels of monk.
HA!
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The Druid class experienced a complete metamorphosis from 3.5 to PF.
In DnD it was primarily a flavor class. In PF it has become an unparalleled power house of imbalance!
...
No.
C(leric)orD(ruid)-zilla
In 3.5:
->Cast Bite of Were<animal>, longterm buffs like Venomfire, GMF, Barkskin, Heart of the X, Primal X, your AC could also get some of these buffs,
->Wildshape away your terrible base physical stats (if you're boring you become an animal, probably you become something significantly better)
-> AC's >>> Fighter/ Most Martials
-> Wreck people better solo than some people do as a party
The problem you are having is that the floor power level (I think there's a better term for it but w/e) was raised in PF. It's significantly easier to make a good druid, but it's now impossible to make a godlike druid (at least by 3.5 standards)