I have a question about favored class options, specifically for choices on abilities that you aren't high enough to use.
Example: The Grippli favored class option for gunslingers says 'Add 1/4 bonus on attack rolls when making a utility or a dead shot.'
Gunslingers don't gain access to the dead shot deed until 7th level, so can you start choosing that at first level or do you have to wait till 7th level?
Also, say you have an archetype that replaces a class feature that your favored class option allows you to slowly treat as a higher level. Can you take the favored class option for the archetypes alternate class ability or are you just burnt?
My friend also has a question: Are you allowed to a take feat before you can use it? He asks because it states in the Ultimate Campaign under re-training that if you have a feat that has another feat as a prerequisite and you re-train it, you still keep the second feat,even though you no longer meet the prerequisites or have it's use. He insinuates that taking a feat for which you don't currently meet the prerequisites now but will, as with Dimensional Agility and being a monk or magus, or another caster capable of learning diemension door. You would only have the feat, but until you meet it's prerequisites, you wouldn't have it's benefit.
No confidence on Q1
Q2:As you said, burnt.
Q3: if you don't meet the prerequisite, you can't take the feat. Character rebuilding rules have to be legal as if the character was played from level 1 onwards. In reference to feats "turning off", this happens from time to time if you stop qualifying for feats that you have. Str drain will turn off power attack if it drops your strength below 13 (mind you str damage will not)
I think he was asking mostly about feats that have level requirements that don't run along the normal level-to-feat progression, I.e., feats that require an your level be an even number, like Arcane Blast or Arcane Shield.
1: yes, you can take that favored class bonus at any time you take levels in the class, you just won't see any benefit until you're of a level to use the associated ability. Limitations on favored class bonuses are spelled out in their descriptions (like the + to crit confirmation rolls with a specific weapon ones saying the max is +4).
2: if an archetype trades out an ability, you're out of luck as far as favored class bonuses that modify it. There's always hp or skill point.
3: I haven't looked at the retraining rules, but in order to take a feat normally you have to meet ALL requirements, unless something specifically calls out that you can ignore requirements (such as a ranger or monk, their bonus feat ability clearly states they do not need to meet the requirements of the feat).
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1) Gunslingers don't gain access to the dead shot deed until 7th level, so can you start choosing that at first level or do you have to wait till 7th level?
2) Can you take the favored class option for the archetypes alternate class ability or are you just burnt?
3) Are you allowed to a take feat before you can use it?
4) Ultimate Campaign under re-training that if you have a feat that has another feat as a prerequisite and you re-train it, you still keep the second feat
1) No you may not take those until 7th
2) You can't take the favored class abilities until you have them. If you took them when you had them and retrained your archetype to take them away you are by RAW stuck with useless ones but I'd have you retain those at the same time as the archetype retraining.
3) You can't take a feat you don't meet the pre-reqs.
4) You can't retrain a feat that is used as a pre-req. When retraining you can replace lower level feats with feats you now meet but didn't then.
1) No you may not take those until 7th
2) You can't take the favored class abilities until you have them. If you took them when you had them and retrained your archetype to take them away you are by RAW stuck with useless ones but I'd have you retain those at the same time as the archetype retraining.
3) You can't take a feat you don't meet the pre-reqs.
4) You can't retrain a feat that is used as a pre-req. When retraining you can replace lower level feats with feats you now meet but didn't then.
I agree with you for the most part James, but you're wrong on number 1. You can take the FCB , you just wont get any benefit until you receive the class feature. Number 2, you could take the bonus, but you would never receive any benefit if you don't have the relevant feature. Replaced features do not count.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I agree with you for the most part James, but you're wrong on number 1.
Right or wrong, the design team agrees with my view on #1.
Link to John who confirmed how to rule on question #1 from the design team
I agree with you for the most part James, but you're wrong on number 1.Right or wrong, the design team agrees with my view on #1.
Link to John who confirmed how to rule on question #1 from the design team
That is a fairly recent clarification, perhaps that is why I hadn't seen it before. It's the first time I've ever seen any developer indicate that is the way it functioned.
I'm also not sure of how far-reaching it's implications are. For example, can a human barbarian take the bonus to Superstition before he is able to select the Superstition Rage Power?
Edit: So upon doing further research I found the following threads:
1
2
Which seemed to lean in favor of the stance I originally took. Then I found this thread:
3
which linked to this thread, which James Risner linked as well,
4
So, it appears my original stance was the case...until it was recently reviewed and the designer decided to "clarify" that you couldn't take it until you had the class feature. Which now mankes many class bonuses far less valuable than they use to be.
Double edit: It actually appears as though that ruling may be limited to things were you have to make a selection between class features, and things like the Human Barbarians bonus to Superstition may be just fine to select before you pick up that Rage power. I'm not 100% certain.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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To be clear, none of the posts you linked had a developer comment contrary to the one linked in #3 and I linked.
So a couple of threads with 6 or less posts that all generally say "sure" don't confirm that is allowed, intended, or acceptable.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to have something improve something you don't yet have. So I don't see how we got the state where taking FCB for things you don't yet have seemed ok.
To be clear, none of the posts you linked had a developer comment contrary to the one linked in #3 and I linked.
So a couple of threads with 6 or less posts that all generally say "sure" don't confirm that is allowed, intended, or acceptable.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to have something improve something you don't yet have. So I don't see how we got the state where taking FCB for things you don't yet have seemed ok.
I never claimed to have developer commentary to the opposite position James, only that the general opinion of the board before the John Compton's post was that it was "Sure, why not?". Which made sense, because you picked a bonus which gave you nothing now, but had a pay off later. It seemed to make sense, in much the same way you could use magical lineage to select a spell which you didn't have access to either.
The fact that John had to make a post to "clarify" seems a lot more like they realized it was a problem they needed to address and changed the way many of us thought it functioned (primarily because of the "overpowered" combination that was possible with Aasimar or Elf Oracles).
I admit my original position is no longer correct, but I believe most people had considered it the default assumption. When they introduced favored class bonuses (beyond the bonus skill or hp) they didn't indicate that you needed to have the feature to choose the bonus for it originally, there was no reason to think you couldn't select to augment it. Only that you wouldn't receive anything until you acquired the ability that was augmented.
Based on your link, I do agree with you now that there is (at least for Oracle and Bard) a requiremnt to have the feature before you can select the FCB. However, for me it's not clear if this extend to all types of favored class bonuses, ones where you must make a choice between options, etc.
I'm not sure I quite agree, because I normally fall into the camp of "it doesn't say you can, so you can't". And there weren't any guidelines previously to the selection of favored class bonuses, other than having the class.
I usually favor an restrictive reading of the rules, but found no compelling reason to do so without John's commentary. I honestly think the issue is that the develoeprs realized they goof'd by not making it restrictive which apparently led to abuse in organized play so they clarified (which feels a lot more like a actual change) that you can't do it.
The fact that this was done in organized play before that clarification leads me to believe that previously that was how it functioned (that you could select the FCB without the relevant feature).
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I think of it more like this scenario.
They wrote it thinking it was/would be obvious you can't take something you don't have.
People began to say "it doesn't say I can't so I can"
They got asked a question about a particularly obnoxious consequence of "it doesn't say I can't" and they clarified it.
Well, my friend and I talked about it, and he came in from a veeerry strong role-play aspect.
One more question. What if you have an alternate racial trait that replaces a racial trait that was also part of your favored class option.
I.e., Tengu have the swordtrained racial trait, which makes them proficient in most swords, even the bastard sword. An alternate racial trait they have is exotic weapon training, which allows you to pick 3+ you int mod worth of eastern weapons instead. Their rogue favored class option is 'choose a weapon from your swordtrained racial trait. Add 1/2 on critical confirmation roles with that weapon(max +4)...' If I had the exotic weapon training instead, would I be able to choose an eastern weapon instead?
