First off, this is primarily for PFS; I'm posting in both the rules forum as well as the PFS forum, so as to hopefully get more Dev input.
Both allow you to apply a metamagic feat to a specific spell and reduce the total level by 1. Neither indicates that it is a trait bonus.
Do they work together on the same spell? I don't think they should, but I'm not sure there's RAW to support it and I'm starting to see it on more and more characters.
*FYI, Wayang Spellhunter is the Pathfinder name of the feat; Metamagic Master is what it has been renamed to in the SRD*
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedNewRules.html#_magical- lineage
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/wayang-spellhunter-minata
Thoughts?
They absolutely work together.
This is one of the most commonly asked questions in the Rules Forum (in fact it was just asked 1hr 45min ago). A quick search will confirm what I have said.
You posted this once in the right forum, so there was no need to post it here, since you'll just be getting the same answers.
Yes, they do stack.
Nefreet wrote: They work together, with the caveat that if you're sitting at my table and say "I have a trait called Metamagic Master", I'm going to ask you what book you found it in. good call... or better yet, ask to present the book, since if they have a laptop, they can look it up easily.
Merged threads. This is most appropriate in the Rules Questions forum, rather than the PFS General Discussion.
Jeff Merola wrote: Yes, they do stack. Usually when I see a question like this there is a catch.
I'm curious what the catch is?
You can't take a 3rd level spell and apply a metamagic and end up with a 2nd level slot used.
Reyyvin, could you give us two examples of application?
James Risner wrote: Jeff Merola wrote: Yes, they do stack. Usually when I see a question like this there is a catch.
I'm curious what the catch is?
You can't take a 3rd level spell and apply a metamagic and end up with a 2nd level slot used.
Reyyvin, could you give us two examples of application?
Oh, yeah, if the OP's been seeing people reduce spells below their original levels with the traits that's a separate problem from them stacking.
*post deleted* - sorry - I misunderstood the question.
James Risner wrote: Jeff Merola wrote: Yes, they do stack. Usually when I see a question like this there is a catch.
I'm curious what the catch is?
You can't take a 3rd level spell and apply a metamagic and end up with a 2nd level slot used.
Reyyvin, could you give us two examples of application?
I haven't seen people using it to cast below the level of the spell. Most ruling on effects apply to things that are similar, so I haven't seen that.
Taking both traits on 1 spell to apply a +2 metamagic feat to keep it as a level 1 spell.
Like an Intensified, Elemental (acid) shocking grasp (level 1), an Empowered Fireball (level 3), or an Intensified, Empowered Fireball (level 4). Things like that.
reyyvin wrote: James Risner wrote: Jeff Merola wrote: Yes, they do stack. Usually when I see a question like this there is a catch.
I'm curious what the catch is?
You can't take a 3rd level spell and apply a metamagic and end up with a 2nd level slot used.
Reyyvin, could you give us two examples of application?
I haven't seen people using it to cast below the level of the spell. Most ruling on effects apply to things that are similar, so I haven't seen that.
Taking both traits on 1 spell to apply a +2 metamagic feat to keep it as a level 1 spell.
Like an Intensified, Elemental (acid) shocking grasp (level 1) or an Intensified, Empowered Fireball (level 4). Things like that. Yup, that stuff works fine.
Another reason may be for a Magues as he could Instesfy +1 and Enpower +2 a Shocking grasp making the spell only a level 2 spell. At level 11 he would get the spell back for 1 point and it would do 10d5 +50% and give a +3 to hit if they are using metal. Even at level 1 he could be empowering the spell and it would still be a level 1 spell.
As much as I hate having to necro a thread. I didn't feel right starting a new one to reiterate the same question because I was debating all day whether or not to make this post.
I intended to use both ML&WSPH for the purpose of reducing my (PFS) characters final cost of a Fireball with metamagics. During the last day of a local Con, I was told by both my VO's, whom are both equally wise and intelligent (a four and five star), have claimed that they do not stack for the purpose of falling into that area of "does the exact same thing in the end". I begrudgingly accepted this and redistributed a trait elsewhere. Several months later have passed and a day or so ago. The same topic rises once more. Empowered with this knowledge, I simply state what I was told and was dismissed by the masses. Now, I wasn't offended but it made me think. With my Searchfu being strong due to the excess of threads available has revealed to me that many of the forums suggest that "yes" it does stack. I've come to an impass.
Do I disregard my VO's ruling and play my character as intended, with fear of reprisal or simply accept their ruling.
Just bring the rules to their attention and build your character as you wanted to. These traits do work together.
Your VOs were wrong in this matter. They don't actually do quite the same thing, and even if they did, they're separate sources, they don't have a type, they aren't even technically bonuses, and the last time the devs were asked about this, their response was "They cannot reduce a spell below its original level" not "They don't stack."
You should point them to the rules forum if they feel otherwise.
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