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I'm currently building a tiefling fighter/duelist. However, according to page 153 of the CRB, armor costs more for non-humanoid creatures. Since tieflings are outsiders rather than humanoids, does that mean I have to double the base price for any armor I buy for a tiefling character?
hu·man·oid
ˈ(h)yo͞oməˌnoid/Submit
adjective
1.
having an appearance or character resembling that of a human.
noun
1.
(especially in science fiction) a being resembling a human in its shape.
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Ask your GM. As you point out, Tieflings are not of the Humanoid type, they are Outsiders, and given that they have tails and often different leg structures they should probably have to pay the x2 price.
If you go off of shape, rather than creature type, then animals like apes could have armor fitted for them at no additional cost.
That being said, in PFS, since I started playing in 2012, I've never encountered a Tiefling or Aasimar that paid double for armor, so you're probably safe going with the regular (humanoid shape) reasoning.
Ask your GM. As you point out, Tieflings are not of the Humanoid type, they are Outsiders, and given that they have tails and often different leg structures they should probably have to pay the x2 price.
If you go off of shape, rather than creature type, then animals like apes could have armor fitted for them at no additional cost.
That being said, in PFS, since I started playing in 2012, I've never encountered a Tiefling or Aasimar that paid double for armor, so you're probably safe going with the regular (humanoid shape) reasoning.
Breastplate? Chainmail/shirt/whatever? There are plenty of armors that have nothing whatsoever to do with your lower half.
And if we were to really go by this type logic, then aasimar might not have to deal with it (scion of humanity makes them count as human too). Despite the fact that they can still grow wings out of their back at level 11. Meanwhile, nothing specifically says a tiefling has to have a tail or unusual feet unless they take an appropriate racial trait (not that that means they can't have those without the trait if you want to, but the trait requires you to have those parts)
But of course, the term 'humanoid' gets used in places outside of just the specific type. Aberrations, constructs, dragons, and elementals use the phrase 'generally humanoid in form' as a prerequisite for weapon proficiencies. As Nefreet noted, it is generally safer to use this assumption of 'form' rather than 'type' for what 'humanoid' means. This is further supported by the assumptions set forth in the creature types and subtypes section for playable races:
When discussing or considering a playable race's type, it's type is similar to the corresponding creature type, with a few important differences.
-The first difference is that each race type assumes members of the race are roughly humanoid in shape and have two arms, two legs, a torso, and a head. This is important so that a race can take advantage of all the various magic item slots available to characters and can utilize the standard weapon and armor options.
-The second difference is that all of these race types are 0-Hit Dice creatures, which means that their Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw progression, skill points, class skills, and weapon and armor proficiencies are based on the class levels each member of a race takes.
As a DM I would add a bit extra cost for a smith to add holes on the back for wings or holes in the helmet for horns. Just a few gps though (also because of discrimination).
Don't forget to charge any non human for being a different race than the black smith, or non dwarf since all dwarves are blacksmiths right? For bonus points, don't let people wear or use anything they loot without penalty because they were a different size and shape than the person they were made for. Clearly the BBEG was 310 pounds and your 220 fighter can't wear the same gear, for realism's sake.
More seriously, any PC of any available race you play should be paying normal price. It means humanoid in shape, as opposed to a equine quadruped. Armor and magic items you pick up also tends to be one size fits all relative to race, though small/medium/large might be different for armor and weapons themselves, any small can wear any other small armor and wonderous items really are one size fits all. Its really for simplicity's sake more than anything.
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This also brings up an interesting question regarding Grappling
Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll.
Does that mean my Tiefling Tetori can Grapple you while holding a dan bong without taking the -4 penalty?
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For bonus points, don't let people wear or use anything they loot without penalty because they were a different size and shape than the person they were made for. Clearly the BBEG was 310 pounds and your 220 fighter can't wear the same gear, for realism's sake.
Generally speaking, you're fine. There are exceptions, though.
Each suit of full plate must be individually fitted to its owner by a master armorsmith, although a captured suit can be resized to fit a new owner at a cost of 200 to 800 (2d4 × 100) gold pieces.
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This also brings up an interesting question regarding GrapplingHumanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll.Does that mean my Tiefling Tetori can Grapple you while holding a dan bong without taking the -4 penalty?
This looks like a pretty good demonstration that "humanoid" is often used to refer to humanoid shape rather than humanoid type. Though it's annoying that it's not always clear which is the case - Charm Person targets "one humanoid creature" without ever specifying type.
This also brings up an interesting question regarding GrapplingHumanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll.Does that mean my Tiefling Tetori can Grapple you while holding a dan bong without taking the -4 penalty?This looks like a pretty good demonstration that "humanoid" is often used to refer to humanoid shape rather than humanoid type. Though it's annoying that it's not always clear which is the case - Charm Person targets "one humanoid creature" without ever specifying type.
Well, charm person seems appropriate, since there is a clear alternative (charm monster) and it would seriously affect the balance of the spell. Instead of just affecting humans, elves, etc, it would also affect dragons, aberrations, and outsiders? That seems too much for a first level spell.
Usually, you can trust spells to know what they are meant to do. The confusion usually comes up with the smaller side rules that player characters have to deal with.
This also brings up an interesting question regarding GrapplingHumanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll.Does that mean my Tiefling Tetori can Grapple you while holding a dan bong without taking the -4 penalty?This looks like a pretty good demonstration that "humanoid" is often used to refer to humanoid shape rather than humanoid type. Though it's annoying that it's not always clear which is the case - Charm Person targets "one humanoid creature" without ever specifying type.
The problem I have with the earlier ape example (that the reason for different armor would be in the way it moves) is that there are playable races that have the same problem. Races with gills or races that fly for example. I'd also like to argue that armor made for dwarves would be as weird to move in for a human as it would be for an intelligent ape.
In the end I'd personally not make it cost if they are humanoid enough. so tails, wings, hooves are all fine.
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I don't think armour is going to get in the way of gills. I don't think there's as much difference between a human and a dwarf and a human and a gorilla, or that that giving winged races standard-cost armour means that you have to do the same for gorillas. But even if it does, I'm happy to err on the side of not charging extra for things, because it's not worth quibbling over.
Well, charm person seems appropriate, since there is a clear alternative (charm monster) and it would seriously affect the balance of the spell. Instead of just affecting humans, elves, etc, it would also affect dragons, aberrations, and outsiders? That seems too much for a first level spell.
If it did affect humanoid shaped creatures rather than humanoid type, it still would only affect some monstrous humanoids, fey, and outsiders. And I don't think it's unclear that charm person is meant to affect the humanoid type. Just that it's a little sloppy to have one term (humanoid) mean two things (shape or type) without clearly specifying which is the case, even if it is 95% clear to common sense.
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Ask your GM or just pay the 2x price and be safe. It isn't like it is a lot of money.
Maybe not usually, but at 1st level when 50-100gp is a big deal it's enough to prevent you from being able to afford a chain shirt or scale mail. And spending an extra 1,500gp on your full plate is a pain in the level 3-6 range when you can usually afford that for the first time.
The big issue, though, is probably not the cost. It's the implication that a native outsider would then have to have every piece of armour custom made for them. You cannot wear that mithral shirt of elven chain until it's re-fitted to a "non-humanoid" standard. And if I can't give my +1 chain shirt to my animal companion when I find a +2 shirt, then would magic armour not re-fit to a native outsider? If it does, someone could bypass the extra cost on the full plate by buying a re-fitting plate for 2,500gp rather than a tail-accommodating mundane version for 3,000. In which case, why bother with the hassle at level 1?
I personally see no mechanical reason to penalize a native outsider, and I see no fluff reason why a strix can wear armour made for a dwarf, but a tiefling or suli can't wear armour made for a human.
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I personally see no mechanical reason to penalize a native outsider, and I see no fluff reason why a strix can wear armour made for a dwarf
Tieflings have tails, Aasamar sometimes have wings. Both make them as non-humanoid as a strix in terms of typical armor.
In the scheme of things, it isn't a big deal. I'm just advising the safe route. The route I'd take to minimize any kerfuffles over the armor.
http://www.medievalmuseum.ru/04weapon/08_superritters/s_full_plate_armor.jp g
http://artisansdazure.deviantart.com/art/Dread-full-plate-245680341
A front and back look at a full suit of plate armor. Most of the butt of the armor is covered by the skirt of the breastplate, the under armor is chain mail, which could easily have an slit in it for the tail. Many suits of armor had chainmail chaps more or less, which typically didn't have a rear in them at all, and that portion of the anatomy was covered in the same type of cloth as the Gambeson, or in other words, heavy cloth undergarments. This was done because most knights rode very expensive war horses, and having that much metal against the horseflesh would cause problems for the horse.
You wouldn't be making wholesale changes to the armor, so having them spend 2x the cost would be ludicrous.
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I personally see no mechanical reason to penalize a native outsider, and I see no fluff reason why a strix can wear armour made for a dwarfTieflings have tails, Aasamar sometimes have wings. Both make them as non-humanoid as a strix in terms of typical armor.
I feel like this conversation is bouncing between humanoid shape vs type and just how big a deal a tail is anyway, so, to clarify:
A strix is of humanoid type, so if we're using the OP's "it says non-humanoids pay extra and a tiefling is an outsider" logic then the strix gets normal price armour and the winged aasimar pays extra, which does not make realistic sense since they have similar body types.
If we're using humanoid shape as the metric, it gets a lot more subjective, but realistically speaking, it should be just as hard for a dwarf to wear a human's armour, or for an elf to wear a half-orc's, as for a tiefling to tuck their tail into armour made for a human. Wings, maybe, but would they really require as much deviation from the standard as armour for a horse?
I'd generally agree with you that it's good to take the safe route, but this seems like a no-brainer to me. And if it's not a big deal then why bother trying to apply a rule meant for mounts to ARG races? Hopefully the OP's situation is as easy as asking their GM and having them say "of course you don't have to pay extra."
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I feel like this conversation is bouncing between humanoid shape vs type and just how big a deal a tail is anyway
Actually I'm thinking more like this thing can't be solved with the rules text, so it ultimately becomes a table variance. For PFS that is hard, so your best bet is to go most conservative. Most conservative is pay the 2x rate for aasamar/tiefling.
I feel like this conversation is bouncing between humanoid shape vs type and just how big a deal a tail is anywayActually I'm thinking more like this thing can't be solved with the rules text, so it ultimately becomes a table variance. For PFS that is hard, so your best bet is to go most conservative. Most conservative is pay the 2x rate for aasamar/tiefling.
Wouldn't the most conservative move be to treat the outsiders like every other single PC class? To not bring in somewhat obscure multiplication rules that many people hardly even realize are in place? To go with the way some people have seen it work in PFS directly?
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Tails?
I thought many DMs crapped blood at the thought of Tieflings and Aasimar having tails.
Also, Catfolk, Ratfolk, Kobolds, Kitsune, Lizardfolk, and some Skinwalkers all have tails, but are humanoid.
Let's not forget that Ifits, Oreads, Sylphs, Suli, and Undine, are all very humanoid in shape, but are Native Outsiders.
I have a hard time thinking of any reason, outside of d$&#$ead houserules, that any Tiefling PC should pay more for Armor.
This is just silly.
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Wouldn't the most conservative move be to treat the outsiders like every other single PC class?
Ok, so you sit down with a GM who believes 2x is warranted. What do you say when he says "you didn't spend enough"?
If you paid the double price, there is no issue. If you didn't, you need to convince him he is wrong. Which is easier to do?
Wouldn't the most conservative move be to treat the outsiders like every other single PC class?Ok, so you sit down with a GM who believes 2x is warranted. What do you say when he says "you didn't spend enough"?
You sit down with a GM who goes looking through your entire list of purchases double checking you? There's a good chance that's a red flag to begin with, even in PFS. You just don't play with the guy who doesn't know the rules. That was a whole lot easier to be honest. Especially as expensive armor can get. Gosh forbid he want you to pay double for special materials ontop of that.
I have a hard time thinking of any reason, outside of d*+$!ead houserules, that any Tiefling PC should pay more for Armor.
Apparently some people think making armor for a dog is the same as making it for an 100% human looking and formed Aasimar?
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I think that there is a big difference between "nonhumanoid (such as horses)" and creatures other than the humanoid type.
I would never require extra unless you were playing something fairly bizarre. I can't say that there won't be GMs that would, but I would be extremely shocked if that was the designers' intentions.
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You sit down with a GM who goes looking through your entire list of purchases double checking you? There's a good chance that's a red flag to begin with, even in PFS.Wouldn't the most conservative move be to treat the outsiders like every other single PC class?Ok, so you sit down with a GM who believes 2x is warranted. What do you say when he says "you didn't spend enough"?
In PFS we have this piece of paper called an "Inventory Tracking Sheet". It's required for all characters to list their gear, how much they spent on it, and what Chronicle sheet they purchased it from.
It's really meant so the GM can do a quick run through to see if someone has any evil items (which is possible), or other items that might be relevant to the scenario he or she is running.
Some GMs use it as an excuse to try and catch cheaters, and advocate the practice, but many (including myself) do not believe that to be the intent of it.
In the End as I said it comes down to the GM.
Well, in the sense you can rule 0 it yes, in the sense this is the rule forum and RAW is the go to answer no.
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Normally it really comes down to understanding armor design and just how unusual they are compared to the norm of the region. If you are among dwarves, finding human sized armor would be considerably more difficult. Then again a human would have the same problems among elves, unless they where lithe of of thin body build. Normally in these instances I wouldn't charge more than 10-15% more....
When they say non-humanoid they mostly mean of human-ish size and shape. Armor for particularly large or huge creatures would off course cost more. But I also see no reason armor for a particularly fat person wouldn't cost a little extra for the extra material.
If you think armour fitting problems add to your game, and you are going to apply them consistently based on the build/shape of each individual character and the surrounding population, then it makes sense for those tieflings or aasimar who do have tails, reversed knee joints, wings, or some other odd feature to have more trouble than average (and so would strix, vanara, etc).
Most people however don't bother with fitting armour as long as both characters are of the same size category. Indeed, it's the default assumption: the only armour that has any need to be re-fitted is full plate, with everything else being one size fits all for anything in the dwarf to elf to orc range. It's a bit of a simplification, but it makes the game run more smoothly. So why, if you're one of the majority of people who don't think armour fitting issues in general add to the game, raise a fuss about a handful of characters with tails and/or wings?
EDIT: Racial prejudice is another issue entirely, one that is setting-specific and has broader-reaching effects than just whether a character is paying more for a suit of armour.