Goblin Squad Member
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This is not about non-lethal duels or NL damage, those discussions have been done.
This is regarding two rather prominent outstanding issues we're going to have the first day of EE that can be mostly or entirely solved with the same thing:
1.) Ryan has said there's not going to be much to do other than attack each other that first day, but he doesn't want the place full of arbitrary murder.
2.) We're loaded with people inexperienced at MMO pvp that would like to learn as expeditiously as possible for purposes of playing Pathfinder Online to its deepest possibilities.
What would be really handy is a way to fight without Reputation or Alignment change, interference from NPCs, or exposure to additional outside player interference than we already had, i.e. no extra flags or being out in the middle of nowhere without the deterrent of NPC protection.
If we can have individual or party-based duels in town that last until either death or surrender, we can start training our company mates and settlemates *TM* in the concepts of pvp and everyone can start to practice this combat system's form of pvp execution (free pun!). It would be impractical to constantly form and reform companys to use feud mechanics to conduct training exercises among allies.
Players can also fight each other in a somewhat orderly-seeming and not-so-arbitrary way, and potentially start developing ad hoc brackets of duelling to keep each other entertained.
I'm no programmer but I can't think of a conceptual reason it would be extraordinarily resource consuming to fiddle with the existing hostility mechanics to turn it on for just two characters or parties and with a hard cancellation condition.
All you need is a checkbox to auto-decline duels in the options window (it could even default as checked after character creation) to prevent exploitation or harassment with it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Devs have also said that although there will be reputation score as of day one, there will be no impact of those scores for some time. PC settlements will not be in place for at least 6 months (according to Lee Hammock).
I could see GW doing a reputation roll back just prior to PC settlements and then telling to population, " From this day forward your reputation COUNTS!".
Alignment is less of an issue. Set your Core Alignment to whatever you want, your active alignment has nothing to do with anything (at least for quite some time).
I would suggest there be a simple roll back after the first couple of months to give us all that time to learn the systems and test the systems, without fear of long lasting consequences.
EE is beta, which is a time for testing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would hope that in doing it the devs create something lasting through the conceptual OE if they're putting the effort into it anyway.
I'll leave it to others to accuse you of grasping at hypotheses and rationalizations to promote an open season pk environment when we start.
Listen to Gobbocast interview with Lee Hammock and re read Ryan's posts about what about early EE MVP. There will be nothing else to do but whack each other.
There is a greater risk of the consumer that purchased just a 3 month EE subscription to step in and say, "I'm paying for this?! Bare Bones Beta!
There will be no feud, faction or war mechanics for months. So any PvP combat will cost you reputation. Everyone will be CE Low Rep in a matter of days if they do any amount of PvP. That is what Ryan said he does not want us being stuck with. A Reputation roll back is the easiest solution.
I don't even mind if there would be a full wipe after the first 3 months of beta, as long as we are not paying for it.
Or maybe what they could do is extend "Alpha" and get all KS into it and give us a few weeks there to test the systems.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmm, I wonder if consequence-free (and meaningless) PvP is what they're doing in place of the 'Pit Fighter' thing they appear to have forgotten about?
There is nothing "meaningless" about learning the mechanics of the game. It is beta testing. The Devs, or Ryan may not want to call EE beta, but that has more to do with the fact that they are charging a subscription for it and not the fact that it is a testing period.
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I don't think there will be any shortage of Faction Flags you can fly that allow players to attack on another outside of NPC guarded areas, even within CC's.
I've heard chatter of something like a "Red & Blue" type faction anyone should be eligible to join. Sure you have to coordinate it, but that shouldn't be that much of a speedbump.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's not arbitrarily attacking anyone within arms reach against any stated intention of the game without repercussion because it will all be rolled back before we have to face any consequences for our actions... it's testing.
We begin paying because we accumulate xp and get to keep it forever. *When we start to pay* and how much we actually play and test the game during EE which has always been stated to be an incomplete product is up to each of us individually.
BAD DINGO! BAD! SHOO SHOO! DERAILER NO DERAILING!
Now back to the merits of voluntary lethal duels between characters and parties in a game that has measurable consequences for arbitrary murder vs. not being worth the priority with everything else to be done leading up to EED1.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Now back to the merits of voluntary lethal duels between characters and parties in a game that has measurable consequences for arbitrary murder vs. not being worth the priority with everything else to be done leading up to EED1.
Ryan said no to duels or Red vs. Blue, as being anything but temporary system until full blown settlement vs. settlement PvP is in game. He did not want "arena style" PvP to become the PvP of choice, because that is Theme Park PvP and not PFO PvP.
There needs to be meaningful gains and losses for PvP, in order to have Meaningful PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And yet there still needs to be some method for friendlies to train, drill, and practice before they go out warring.
If we have that on the first day, a lot of people can be occupied with working out the nuts and bolts of MMO pvp, finding their style, establishing small group cohesion, and that portion of the great catastrophe is averted.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder whether something as simple as a system-declared perma-feud among all characters for the first few days (or however long) would work?
That would be frustrating for some people who are trying to do things other then PvP combat. Normally I would suggest a way to "opt out" of PvP but that is more the way of the theme park MMO, in a sandbox PvP should always be an option.
Therefore anyone who intends to play the game long term needs to learn how to deal with PvP situations, run, hide, fight, call for backup, etc. We definitely need some way to be able to work on PvP training that is legitimate.
No, I am not a big fan of PvP myself, but it WILL be a part of the game, and rightly so. The ability to attack one another for MEANINGFUL reasons such as monetary/territorial/resource gain or even just to redress an insult is very much a part of human/elf/dwarf/gnome/goblin/orc/etc societies after all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Devs have also said that although there will be reputation score as of day one, there will be no impact of those scores for some time.
I think this creates a false impression. Here's the actual quote, in Ryan's own words:
The problem I see is that even if alignment and rep is in the game on day one of Early Enrollment, it may be irrelevant. The only way to train skills will be to access trainers at the NPC settlements which will have to be open to all characters because there won't be enough diversity in the initial terrain to have lots of them. There won't be much to do against the environment besides kill groups of monsters which don't offer much threat. So the most interesting thing to do will be to fight other characters, and I expect that to happen quite a bit.
The challenge is that the message that sends to everyone is that the game is just a PvP free for all with zero consequences. If that becomes the accepted norm, the game will fossilize around those assumptions and we'll never be able to change them. Having alignment and rep doesn't mean anything if there are no consequences attached to changes in them.
Therefore I think that we may need to impose some external forces on the game environment to rationalize the PvP until enough other features have been deployed to give alignment and rep meaningful consequences.
So, new posters should understand that EE is not intended to be a "PvP free for all with zero consequences".
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Devs have also said that although there will be reputation score as of day one, there will be no impact of those scores for some time.I think this creates a false impression. Here's the actual quote, in Ryan's own words:
So, new posters should understand that EE is not intended to be a "PvP free for all with zero consequences".The problem I see is that even if alignment and rep is in the game on day one of Early Enrollment, it may be irrelevant. The only way to train skills will be to access trainers at the NPC settlements which will have to be open to all characters because there won't be enough diversity in the initial terrain to have lots of them. There won't be much to do against the environment besides kill groups of monsters which don't offer much threat. So the most interesting thing to do will be to fight other characters, and I expect that to happen quite a bit.
The challenge is that the message that sends to everyone is that the game is just a PvP free for all with zero consequences. If that becomes the accepted norm, the game will fossilize around those assumptions and we'll never be able to change them. Having alignment and rep doesn't mean anything if there are no consequences attached to changes in them.
Therefore I think that we may need to impose some external forces on the game environment to rationalize the PvP until enough other features have been deployed to give alignment and rep meaningful consequences.
That is not the quote, and so new posters should know that there will be no feuds, faction or wars in the earliest weeks of EE, and that unless they PVP there will be little else they can do in EE. Are they going to kill 100 goblins a day and gather some berries? They can do that in Smurfs Online for free.
Ryan said that they would have to come up with some way to avoid everyone becoming CE and Low Rep, but that didn't mean not to PVP, that meant that in the absence of that system some other solution would have to be thought of.
How do you make declarative statements based on TBD official statements?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think there will be any shortage of Faction Flags you can fly that allow players to attack on another outside of NPC guarded areas, even within CC's.
I've heard chatter of something like a "Red & Blue" type faction anyone should be eligible to join. Sure you have to coordinate it, but that shouldn't be that much of a speedbump.
Agreed. Likewise, a number of players can agree to have one character "steal" the loot from a kill, maybe taking a chaos hit, but flagging as a legitimate target. I'm sure there will be other ways to flag without taking a Rep loss.
If actually doing a lot of PvP in early EE brings a reward (ie, better understanding of PvP mechanics) that can't be gained through PvE, then those that pay the price (rep loss, alignment shift, Influence expenditure through feuds, etc.) will be better at PvP later than those that aren't willing to pay that price. But there's likely ways to avoid paying a steep price.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would very much like for there to be a way to /taunt or /challenge another Character, which made you instantly appear Hostile to them. It would be great, but not necessary, to also make the target of the /taunt or /challenge appear Hostile if they didn't leave the area, but I realize there's a lot of design work that would be needed to keep that from being abused.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So where is the issue? Flag yourself for PvP, problem solved. ;)
That's the thing. As far as I know right now, there's no "General PvP Flag" where you can just make yourself show Hostile to everyone. You can fly a "For the Cause" flaq for a faction, but that only works if the other guy is in an opposing faction.
I'm talking about a targeted Hostility, that only makes you show Hostile to a specific Character (with the normal Group Hostility mechanics, whatever those are).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Military Leadership 101 for you all:
If it's day 1, no one has any skill points or keyword gear, so make murder alts . They will be as strong as any character in game on Day 1.
When they get kicked out of start town over low rep, delete them.
Take turns playing the aggressor but play the same role/gear as your main, so you learn useful things.
Use your teamspeak or w/e and try as hard as you can. By the time an organized group of new characters are zero challenge, we should have influence for feuds.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Military Leadership 101 for you all:
If it's day 1, no one has any skill points or keyword gear, so make murder alts . They will be as strong as any character in game on Day 1.
When they get kicked out of start town over low rep, delete them.Take turns playing the aggressor but play the same role/gear as your main, so you learn useful things.
Use your teamspeak or w/e and try as hard as you can. By the time an organized group of new characters are zero challenge, we should have influence for feuds.
Military Leadership 102
On day two everyone has two days worth of experience except you and the guys who kept deleting their characters. You now suck compared to everyone else.
At 5437 days vs. 5436 it won't make a damn bit of difference but compare the power of a day 2 EVE character to that of a day 1.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So where is the issue? Flag yourself for PvP, problem solved. ;)That's the thing. As far as I know right now, there's no "General PvP Flag" where you can just make yourself show Hostile to everyone. You can fly a "For the Cause" flaq for a faction, but that only works if the other guy is in an opposing faction.
I'm talking about a targeted Hostility, that only makes you show Hostile to a specific Character (with the normal Group Hostility mechanics, whatever those are).
None of this will be available day one, two...ten..21.. until it is added in.
There will not be outposts on day one, so you can not turn yourself hostile without attacking a PC.
There will not be factions on day one, so there is no "for the cause", so no mutual hostility without one choosing to attack the other first.
There will be no SADs, so there is no way to attack a merchant without reputation loss.
The OP is asking for a mutual hostile state that is consensual PVP. Any non consensual pvp will record the reputation loss and alignment shifts. The Devs would have to create a system that they later remove, which is something I doubt they want to do.
There for what Ryan said:
"Therefore I think that we may need to impose some external forces on the game environment to rationalize the PvP until enough other features have been deployed to give alignment and rep meaningful consequences."
Those "external forces" might simply be a warning that "What you see now is not the game, this is simply a beta phase until more controls are put in place".
When those controls are put in place, there should be a rollback on the Reputation loss, everyone getting reset to 1000 Rep and told, "Now everything you do counts".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Active characters get the exp whether they are in game or not. I can turn on the exp faucet and log off for a week, come back and spend a week of exp.
fyi
'Alts' means alternate characters
And did these "Alts" pledge enough to get into the EE? Because otherwise you are wasting XP from your main or your DT.
I don't think anyone paid that much for characters they don't care about.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Active characters get the exp whether they are in game or not. I can turn on the exp faucet and log off for a week, come back and spend a week of exp.
fyi
'Alts' means alternate characters
As long as you aren't using an Alt. Destiny's twin gains experience at the same rate as the main character. The main character gains experience when it is the active character. It's possible (I haven't seen a specific post) that both main and DT get experience if either is logged in, but I'm pretty sure that when an Alt is logged in, neither Main nor DT gains experience.
It's likely that you'll identify a character as your "main" character's Destiny's twin and that character will gain the XP of their "main". They won't get a separate pool of XP. So if you don't train the main, the twin won't gain XP either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Active characters get the exp whether they are in game or not. I can turn on the exp faucet and log off for a week, come back and spend a week of exp.
fyi
'Alts' means alternate charactersAs long as you aren't using an Alt. Destiny's twin gains experience at the same rate as the main character. The main character gains experience when it is the active character. It's possible (I haven't seen a specific post) that both main and DT get experience if either is logged in, but I'm pretty sure that when an Alt is logged in, neither Main nor DT gains experience.
It's likely that you'll identify a character as your "main" character's Destiny's twin and that character will gain the XP of their "main". They won't get a separate pool of XP. So if you don't train the main, the twin won't gain XP either.
You do not have to be logged in to gain experience. You have to be logged in to recover list Reputation or to shift towards your Core Alignment. Experience is banked, based on the monthly subscription. What you designate for your main, you get the same amount of points towards your DT. Any points spent on an alt, take away from both your main and your DT, unless you have a separate paid time for your alt.
I might actually go that route and have three equally experienced toons: Main, DT and City Manager Alt.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would expect many people to just sit around hugging the starter town walls only going out as far as they safely can without dying too frequently while they train and try to grab some sort of resources or money to buy training and completing any badges? or whatever they are currently called to allow them to benefit from new skills.
Some more adventurous souls will wander out and about, maybe even try to run out to there new settlement locations and whatnot.
I'm far more concerned about potential backlash and I've expressed this concern before.
If there truly is little or nothing to do during EE, the game is buggy, what combat is in game is either flawed or worse, boring, and people are in fact having to pay subscription fees for the "privilege" of doing this we could be looking at one of the shortest MMO lifespans ever.
While I would personally prefer this NOT be the case and I would hope GW does have some sort of plan or strategy other "lets just hope the pathfinder name on a game that really isn't pathfinder in any way, shape or form, but just borrows the flavor of Pathfinder universe, carries us through" when Ryan admitted in another thread that pathfinder players aren't really there target audience.
This leads me to have concerns and questions.
What IS going to be in game at release?
What happens when we create a character?
where does it spawn?
how many graphics choices will we have for face, hair, etc?
Do we start with any equipment?
Will we be able to bind all this equipment or does the first death render the character unplayable as we lose our weapons and armor and end up begging in the street for replacements?
Do we have access to a bank?
When do we get our daily rewards?
How will they come?
Will the be destroyable, lootable?
Will we have enough bag/bank space to receive them and store them?
Will we be able to buy more bags?
What skills will be available?
If they require badges, will the things needed to get said badges be in game, IN SUFFICIENT QUANTITY FOR PLAYERS TO GET THERE BADGES?
How do we get money? i.e. wheres the faucet? Mobs, random chests, quest rewards?
Will there be a mail function in game (more bank space!)
What kind of chat systems will be available?
Company / guild / settlements? what, when and how?
What will actually be in game and ready for us to do day one. day two, week 2, month 2.
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Goblin Squad Member
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regarding the pvp question:
-will there be a way to become heinous at day one(and attackable by anyone)?
if yes:
-when i´m flagged heinous, can members of my own CC/party attack me qithout consequences?
if yes, what more would we need to set up training fights?
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Goblin Squad Member
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regarding the pvp question:
-will there be a way to become heinous at day one(and attackable by anyone)?
if yes:
-when i´m flagged heinous, can members of my own CC/party attack me qithout consequences?
if yes, what more would we need to set up training fights?
TWO SILVER PIECES ON THE HAIRY GUY WITH BRAIDS!
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Goblin Squad Member
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You do not have to be logged in to gain experience. Experience is banked, based on the monthly subscription.
Exactly, Bludd.
No exp for the alt. No skill spending for the alt.
Day 1, EE:
1) Log in main characters, turn on exp, Split your company into 2 'equal' teams.
2) Team 1 logs out, and makes alts.
2a) Team 1 Logs in those alts, without making them the active character. Without using any Destiny's twins, because you want their rep to stay pristine.
3) team 1 (Alts) attack team 2 (mains)
4) Team 2 fights with no rep loss because they are defending themselves.
5) after a few fights, go back to step 1 and swap teams.
6) go to step 1
Have a few practice fights each day, get 100% more PFO PVP experience than anyone who can't follow that recipe.
Once the alts are too outclassed to be any challenge, either increase their numbers or give up on it. It's just a way to do PVP on EED1, it's not something to do for the life of the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You do not have to be logged in to gain experience. Experience is banked, based on the monthly subscription.Exactly, Bludd.
No exp for the alt. No skill spending for the alt.
Day 1, EE:
1) Log in main characters, turn on exp, Split your company into 2 'equal' teams.
2) Team 1 logs out, and makes alts.
2a) Team 1 Logs in those alts, without making them the active character. Without using any Destiny's twins, because you want their rep to stay pristine.
3) team 1 (Alts) attack team 2 (mains)
4) Team 2 fights with no rep loss because they are defending themselves.
5) after a few fights, go back to step 1 and swap teams.
6) go to step 1Have a few practice fights each day, get 100% more PFO PVP experience than anyone who can't follow that recipe.
Once the alts are too outclassed to be any challenge, either increase their numbers or give up on it. It's just a way to do PVP on EED1, it's not something to do for the life of the game.
Although theoretically doable, this is not good PvP training. But hey, what ever you feel works for you.
