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So, as the title suggests, I have a few questions concerning the Cartomancer Witch and questions about ammunition...
1. Is drawing cards for Deadly Dealer is a move action or a free action?
2. If the card is used to deliver a touch spell do magical enhancements on the card go off even though it does not do damage?
3. Can I use the ammunition(aka cards) as a melee weapon? If yes, can I enchant it as a melee weapon (like spell storing)?
Harrow Handbook, not sure on page cause I have not received the book yet.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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None of these have direct answers, so your whole post is "how would you rule RAW in your game"?
1. Is drawing cards for Deadly Dealer is a move action or a free action?
2. If the card is used to deliver a touch spell do magical enhancements on the card go off even though it does not do damage?
3. Can I use the ammunition(aka cards) as a melee weapon? If yes, can I enchant it as a melee weapon (like spell storing)?
1) Can be enhanced like ammo so can be drawn as fast as ammo (Free action.)
2) The weapon and all enhancers on the weapon (the card) deal no damage, the spell deals full damage. So no point blank shot damage, no arcane strike damage, etc.
3) No
Damn....I was hoping these had a more direct answer instead of open to interpretation.
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1. Cards are thrown as darts, and darts are ammunition. So drawing a card for Deadly Dealer is a free action. The real question is whether you can draw a deck of cards as a free action with Quick Draw or during a move.
2. Nothing prevents Harrowed Spellstrike from functioning like a normal Spellstrike. Especially since the Card Caster's Deadly Dealer feature allows your cards to always deal damage, even if not enhanced by Arcane Strike (as long as you have a point in your arcane pool). So yes, any magical enhancements on the cards goes off when they hit a target as part of a Harrowed Spellstrike in addition to both the cards' damage and the spells' damage.
3. You can't use darts as melee weapons, so you can't use cards as melee weapons. You can use them as an improvised weapon, but they gain no benefits of their magical properties when you do so.
Ok, got the book from in today. It is on page 15 of the Harrow Handbook.
Would still like some people's opinions on the questions above if possible...
1. Cards are thrown as darts, and darts are ammunition. So drawing a card for Deadly Dealer is a free action. The real question is whether you can draw a deck of cards as a free action with Quick Draw or during a move.
This is wrong. Ammo's are Atlatl dart, Blowgun darts and Kestros dart however you may only treat cards as plain old darts. Darts are simple ranged weapons. As such, you'd need the same action to draw them as a weapon.
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1. Cards are thrown as darts, and darts are ammunition. So drawing a card for Deadly Dealer is a free action. The real question is whether you can draw a deck of cards as a free action with Quick Draw or during a move.This is wrong. Ammo's are Atlatl dart, Blowgun darts and Kestros dart however you may only treat cards as plain old darts. Darts are simple ranged weapons. As such, you'd need the same action to draw them as a weapon.
I can see your argument but I think that this issue is more complicated than that.
The Deadly Dealer feat seems to support both positions on drawing cards, but only one makes sense.
At the beginning, it says that you can throw a card as though it were a dart but at the end of the feat, it says that you can enhance a deck as though it were a ranged weapon.
If you emphasize the first part, then each card must be drawn as a move action. If you emphasize the last part, then the cards are ammunition that have the characteristics of darts.
If you take it at face value, RAW says both are true at the same time.
What makes the most sense is that the deck itself is the weapon and that the individual cards have characteristics of ammunition and stats of darts.
If this were not the case, and your position that individual cards are literally treated as darts were true, then each individual card would have to be enchanted on its own, making a +1 deck cost somewhere North of 100,000 gp.
I think that it's safe to say that this is probably not the intent of this feat.
It would be nice if this were clarified in a FAQ, but I don't think it's necessary.
What makes the most sense to me:
You draw the deck as a move action, as a free action as part of a move, or as a free action with the Quick Draw feat.
Individual cards are drawn as a free action as part of the attacks that the character makes; 1d4 damage, 20' range, x2 critical, 1/2 pound, piercing damage.
Things like iterative attacks, Rapid Shot, and Haste would work just fine.
I think that the 1/2 pound thing is probably an oversight. It is silly to think that a mundane Harrow Deck would suddenly jump from "Weight: - " to "Weight: 27 lbs" just because a character decides to start throwing the cards at an enemy.
"You can throw a card as though it were a dart, with the same damage, range, and other features." Seems clear that that for combat you teat it like a dart.
"Harrow cards are treated as masterwork weapons when thrown using this feat, but are still destroyed after they are thrown" Again, it notes that they are weapons and not ammo. There is nothing like what it says for the Shuriken [Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them].
"A spellcaster with this feat can enhance a deck of cards as though it were a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition." Note that it's 'a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition' for enchanting only. IMO it makes MUCH more sense for you to quick draw instead of trying to use some kind of rapid reload.
I see you needing quickdraw if you want to avoid the move action draw for the cards. Not sure what you mean with the 1/2 pound. Harrow decks are listed as - but decks of cards are listed as 1lb so I think it's weight that much. The darts weight isn't one of the 'other features' IMO.
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"You can throw a card as though it were a dart, with the same damage, range, and other features." Seems clear that that for combat you teat it like a dart.
"Harrow cards are treated as masterwork weapons when thrown using this feat, but are still destroyed after they are thrown" Again, it notes that they are weapons and not ammo. There is nothing like what it says for the Shuriken [Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them].
"A spellcaster with this feat can enhance a deck of cards as though it were a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition." Note that it's 'a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition' for enchanting only. IMO it makes MUCH more sense for you to quick draw instead of trying to use some kind of rapid reload.
I see you needing quickdraw if you want to avoid the move action draw for the cards. Not sure what you mean with the 1/2 pound. Harrow decks are listed as - but decks of cards are listed as 1lb so I think it's weight that much. The darts weight isn't one of the 'other features' IMO.
Of course I agree about the weight of the decks, but "other features" isn't a game term, so who knows...I was referencing the weight issue because it's an example of how absurd things can get with following strict RAW.
IMO, it would have been more clear if they had not referenced darts and listed new combat stats for the cards.
It looks like the solution to these issues is pretty clear, but will probably require a GM ruling. I'm mostly interested because I play a lot of PFS.
My new Cartomancer won't care because abusing Deliver Touch Spells is the goal. A Card Caster will have to figure something out though.
Does Quick Draw solve all of this for a melee Deadly Dealer?
I'm thinking yes, although it still seems kind of absurd that you can't grab a card off of a held deck as a free action.
I can't remember where, but i saw a semi official comment quote (so ya'kno could be made up) saying that it's a dart, as in the ranged weapon dart listed in the books and on the official site as a ranged weapon. So move acxtion to draw, but , since it's not ammo it won't break.
I kind of wish it gave you a choice between dart and shuriken stats.
Granted since you want to use the harrower cards which count as master work, I guess them being retrievable might be nice.
though I remember something about one card removed making the deck usless? can't remember
The text clearly calls out that the cards break when thrown.
Does Quick Draw solve all of this for a melee Deadly Dealer?
I'm thinking yes, although it still seems kind of absurd that you can't grab a card off of a held deck as a free action.
Melee? Quick draw would solve all you're throwing issues. As far as drawing from a held deck, you might be able to draw quicker. I'd assume most times your deck is in a Harrow carrying case and not in the open.
As far as stats, they'd be : cards - ranged (thrown) simple weapon(1d4 damage, 20' range, x2 critical, piercing damage). Destroyed after attack like ammo unless you are a 3rd+ Cartomancer.
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Does Quick Draw solve all of this for a melee Deadly Dealer?
I'm thinking yes, although it still seems kind of absurd that you can't grab a card off of a held deck as a free action.Melee? Quick draw would solve all you're throwing issues. As far as drawing from a held deck, you might be able to draw quicker. I'd assume most times your deck is in a Harrow carrying case and not in the open.
As far as stats, they'd be : cards - ranged (thrown) simple weapon(1d4 damage, 20' range, x2 critical, piercing damage). Destroyed after attack like ammo unless you are a 3rd+ Cartomancer.
Yes.
Drawing from a held deck should at least be the same as holding a dart in each of your hands.
@Zwordsman:
Cartomancer Witch link.
The only place I can find mention of the 'one missing card makes the deck useless' concept is the Spell Deck feature of Cartomancer. It's kind of a scary thought (no spells!), but with some of the screwy ways that Deadly Dealer works, there has been some discussion of the idea that you can simply 'reload' the Spell Deck with new cards.
It stands to reason that a harrowing shouldn't work as intended without a complete deck. RAW it doesn't look like it's disallowed though.
Someone in PFS will probably try using an incomplete deck in order to max out their buffs and get it FAQ'd.
I think I'll keep several spare decks in my gear, just in case.
Deadly Dealer: "A harrow deck can no longer be used as a fortunetelling device after even a single card is thrown." Any missing cards stops it from working as a Harrow Deck. I can still be used as a deck of cards.
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Deadly Dealer: "A harrow deck can no longer be used as a fortunetelling device after even a single card is thrown." Any missing cards stops it from working as a Harrow Deck. I can still be used as a deck of cards.
How did I miss that?!
In any case, non-Cartomancers using the Deadly Dealer feat will spend a lot of money on their attacks. It costs almost 2gp per shot.
That's almost as bad as Gunslingers.
Deadly Dealer: "A harrow deck can no longer be used as a fortunetelling device after even a single card is thrown." Any missing cards stops it from working as a Harrow Deck. I can still be used as a deck of cards.How did I miss that?!
In any case, non-Cartomancers using the Deadly Dealer feat will spend a lot of money on their attacks. It costs almost 2gp per shot.
That's almost as bad as Gunslingers.
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like you could throw non-Harrow cards with Deadly Dealer before 3rd level to reduce the cost of doing so and to keep your spell deck intact.
The Harrow Handbook specifically calls out Harrow Cards as being masterwork, but there seems to be no reason why you couldn't use the feat to throw other kinds of cards (the most basic deck costs 1 sp). That way you could keep your spell deck (and harrow deck) in one piece.
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ok does anyone have a offical ruleing about this cuase im all sorts of confused lol, people say its ammunition, others say its a full weapon, wich is also wierd but i wish someone knew the truth.
can you draw a card from the deck as a free action like ammo or is it a move action to draw a single card? and whats the cost of actually enchanting them? is it ammo like it says or is it a full weapon?
these are questions i'd love answerd cuase i am planing on making a Kitsune Cartomancer for PFS lol
"You can throw a card as though it were a dart, with the same damage, range, and other features." So it works JUST like a normal dart.
can you draw a card from the deck as a free action like ammo or is it a move action to draw a single card?: It takes whatever action you'd take pulling out any other weapon. Take quickdraw is you plan to toss more than 1 a round.
and whats the cost of actually enchanting them?: "A spellcaster with this feat can enhance a deck of cards as though it were a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition." So you figure it out as if you enchant both a weapon AND 54 pieces of ammunition
is it ammo like it says or is it a full weapon?: It's NEVER ammo. They are "masterwork weapons when thrown using this feat, but are still destroyed after they are thrown."
All these questions are clearly spelled out in the feats and abilities.
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All these questions are clearly spelled out in the feats and abilities.
I disagree. All of these questions are not clearly spelled out in the feats and abilities.
Raphael's questions are good questions.
I disagree with graystone's interpretations.
As seen in the above discussion (among others), there is considerable grey area regarding how this class ability works. We don't really need to rehash anything at this point.
Until/unless there is errata or an FAQ, you can expect table variation.
The best thing to do is to discuss the class ability with your GM prior the start of play and work together to decide how it is going to work.
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The way I interpret it (unofficially, of course), is that the deck is the "weapon" and the individual cards are the "ammunition". So, it's an action to pull out the deck, but not to draw a card (so to speak). You enhance the whole deck as a ranged weapon; you don't need to enhance each card individually (just like you don't need to enhance arrows for a magic bow). And, sorry, no it can't be used/enhanced as a melee weapon (it's just a playing card until you flick it).
I disagree. All of these questions are not clearly spelled out in the feats and abilities.
All these questions are clearly spelled out in the feats and abilities.
What part of my last part did you disagree with? I posted quotes from the relevant rules. I don't see anything that was vague or needed an FAQ.
It clearly says it's used as a dart and looking dart (Ultimate Equipment) up you find it to be a thrown weapon. So you draw it as a thrown weapon and it does damage as a dart. It's clearly spelled out how it's enchanted (as both a weapon AND 54 pieces of ammunition). AMMO is ONLY brought up in the enchanting part, no where else so it's just a modifier to enchanting price.
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well Graystone the fact is that it aint spelled out clear as day, alot of stuff aint. the feat itself brings up alot of questions, not to mention the fact differnt classes use the feat differntly brings up other questions as well. such as the enchanting part of it, such as you say "it's enchanted (as both a weapon AND 54 pieces of ammunition). are you saying you expect people to pay 8000 golds to enchant it as a plus 1 weapon and a plus 1 ammunition, or do you only pay the ammunition cost cuase if its the first i cant imagine anyone taking this feat and paying so much. anyway thats my two cents lol, there is always going to be questions about things are are clearly not spelled out as clear as day and people will continue to ask questions about it :3
It works JUST like it says. If you're enchanting it to + 1, you figure out the cost of a +1 weapon then add that cost to the cost of 54 +1 pieces of ammos. What you fail to notice is that you're getting 54 thrown weapons. And they have free returning. Seems cheap to me.
+1 weapon =2000gp
54 +1 'ammo'=2160gp (50 ammo = price of weapon bonus)
+1 harrow deck=4160gp
It's really straight forward. This is one of the areas of the game I didn't see any issues or ambiguity in. It's all in the sections I quoted.
Zwordsman: If you wish to use the cards in melee, take the trait 'rough and ready' and Profession (gambler, profit, oracle, soothsayer, ect). This'll allow you to remove the -4 hit for improvised weapons that your profession uses (cards). Then take Surprise Weapon to gain a +2 to hit with improvised weapons.
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hmm my mistake it had been a while since i've been able to play and i thought a +1 base price was 4000 lol, but i still dont see the benefit of paying twice for a +1 weapon, when as a cartomancer you only need to ever throw 1 card over and over, then adding any ablities from that view point becomes huge a +1 flameing deck now cost 16000 golds to get, so until a offical faq its going to end up differnt from table to table
Raphael Valen, you should read the returning ability. You don't get that card back until the next round. So 3 attacks means you need three cards. You take the right feats and you could be tossing around a dozen or more cards a round. All for the cost of slightly more than 2 magic weapons. Seems cheap...
I don't think you'll ever get a FAQ on this because all the info is already there. (And I really don't see where the ambiguity is)
Lucio, it ONLY talks about ammo in the enchanting of the deck. For combat, it says it's a dart. Those two sections don't cross unless you're enchanting DURING combat.
SO the basics of the deck are:
in combat, use dart rules. Thrown weapons that needs quickdraw if you want to use more than 1 per round. This is clear. "You can throw a card as though it were a dart, with the same damage, range, and other features." so just look at how darts work.
Now, you're out of combat and you want to enchant your deck. You do JUST what it says. "A spellcaster with this feat can enhance a deck of cards as though it were a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition." So you add that up. Weapon cost+ammo cost=total cost. A real bargain for enchanting 54 thrown weapons with free returning.
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Now, you're out of combat and you want to enchant your deck. You do JUST what it says. "A spellcaster with this feat can enhance a deck of cards as though it were a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition." So you add that up. Weapon cost+ammo cost=total cost. A real bargain for enchanting 54 thrown weapons with free returning.
Except that if you had a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition, you would not enchant both. You would either enchant the weapon (which would pass it's qualities to the ammo.) or you would enchant the ammo. You don't buy a bow and then give it +1 and buy +1 arrows.
Also, remember that the enchanting them is from the base feat, not from cartomancer, so it is not assuming returning. It is assuming destruction.
Sigh...
Fricassee: It would have NO reason to word it that way if you didn't add the cost together. If it was one OR the other then it'd say "Ranged weapon OR 54 pieces of ammunition". Or maybe 'A spellcaster with this feat can enhance a deck of cards with ranged weapon and ammunition enchantments.' The way it's written doesn't suggest that. On your edit, that might be the case if there was a section that listed '54 pieces of ammunition'. However it's ranged, melee and ammo.
Flite: With a ranged + ammo situation, you'd be right. That's not the case here. It doesn't work as a standard weapon + ammo item. The way it's stated, you have to enchant the bunch.
And anyone that going to enchant these and NOT get the 3 levels of cartomancer, I worry about their sanity... You're pretty much just throwing money at the bad guys at that point...
I think I've said all there is to say here. If it truly was trying to say you just get the option of using ranged and ammo enchants, it's worded quite badly and needs an errata/FAQ. It doesn't seem that way to me but enough people seem to read something else into it that I'll concede it may need some clarification.