Dropping 25 alchemist fires on to a ship. (How to run)


Advice


So a rider takes to the air with a flying mount. Pretty easy to have 25 to 100 pounds (or more with minimal magic) left in light encumbrance. Rider takes bombs made of alchemist fire with him.

How would you rule throwing/dropping more then 1 at and enemy ship? I am using fire as she bears but I do not see an changes on who catching fire works.

So 25 pounds of alchemist fire in a sack dropped from 150 feet would do 4d6 damage simply by falling. Ranged touch to actually hit the square you aim for. Scatter rules would have it shift 7 squares witch would be enough to miss the ship except for a 1 or 5. Dropping from lower will only do 2d6 damage but can make missing far less likely.

Does alchemist fire do full damage to ship or just splash damage? What if it was aimed at a person and not the ship? Should you apply hardness for each A fire or just once? What do you do with the splash damage to the ship?

The gravity damage would be separate.

Lamp oil far cheaper, 100 pounds is only 10 GP. Drop a barrel on ship to soak it and fire arrow to light it. 100d3 damage? Since both burn for 2 rounds there is a very good chance the ship will catch fire.

Scarab Sages

Ranged touch, but 150 feet is 15 range increments. That is a -30 to hit. Good luck, even with True Strike.


Falling objects have range increment of 20 feet so it is only -14. A ship has and AC 6-10 normally so that requires a 20 to 24 to hit. That is not that hard even for low level characters. It can be made easier by flying lower.

So what happens after it hits (or misses but still hits the ship)?


Quote:

Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects.

Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their size and the distance they have fallen. Table: Damage from Falling Objects determines the amount of damage dealt by an object based on its size. Note that this assumes that the object is made of dense, heavy material, such as stone. Objects made of lighter materials might deal as little as half the listed damage, subject to GM discretion. For example, a Huge boulder that hits a character deals 6d6 points of damage, whereas a Huge wooden wagon might deal only 3d6 damage. In addition, if an object falls less than 30 feet, it deals half the listed damage. If an object falls more than 150 feet, it deals double the listed damage. Note that a falling object takes the same amount of damage as it deals.

Dropping an object on a creature requires a ranged touch attack. Such attacks generally have a range increment of 20 feet. If an object falls on a creature (instead of being thrown), that creature can make a DC 15 Reflex save to halve the damage if he is aware of the object. Falling objects that are part of a trap use the trap rules instead of these general guidelines.

So, those are the general rules for falling objects.

I would use the falling object range, since that seems more appropriate but it still leaves a large penalty to hit. Keep in mind that while the base AC of ships is low, it is increased by the proper skill of the driver of the vessel. For a vessel with sails that is profession(sailor). In the Skull and Shackles campaiagn I'm in, my 6th level ranger without any particular focus in it has a +18 between some ship based bonuses and masterwork tools. That raises the AC from 2 to 20.

Also keep in mind each flask has to be dropped individually as a standard action.

Also, they don't do 4d6 falling damage. Alchemist flask aren't even small sized objects. They probably qualify as tiny or diminutive. It should deal either 1d6 or 1d3 falling damage.


Why could you not put 25 in a sack and drop the whole sack.

I mean I know they can but would the best way to work this out be.


Mathius wrote:

Why could you not put 25 in a sack and drop the whole sack.

I mean I know they can but would the best way to work this out be.

You certainly can. You can even make an attack roll using them as an improvised weapon. What you can't do is try to use common sense to avoid the game rules. The game is balanced (as much as it is, different debate) with it taking a standard action to use one flask of alchemist's fire. Something not specifically covered in the rules is being used to create a situation where you are using one free action to use 25 alchemist's fires. Even a cursory look at the situation will say that something isn't right here. There are plenty of cool exploits within the rules, this isn't one of them.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mathius wrote:

Why could you not put 25 in a sack and drop the whole sack.

I mean I know they can but would the best way to work this out be.

That's a GM's call on that. It's in the category of the kind of trick I'll allow once, but next time the flier in question just may find himself becoming a fireball target.


Mathius wrote:

Why could you not put 25 in a sack and drop the whole sack.

I mean I know they can but would the best way to work this out be.

Mostly because the rules aren't balanced around it.

The Exchange

3.5's Stormwrack had rules for hurling entire kegs of alchemist's fire, which if I remember rightly did 3d6 fire damage in a 20' spread. Not as effective as cluster-bombing with 25 flasks each doing 2d4 - I'll have to look at Heroes of Battle, to see what their "bombardment rules" were, but while they covered firing catapults loaded with multiple smaller stones I don't think they considered the crossover of multiple missiles + bombardment.

Bear in mind that Pathfinder has yet to produce its answer to Stormwrack - the reason ships are peculiarly vulnerable isn't that the people in-universe have a blind spot about keeping their beloved 5000-gp home/vehicles from bursting into flame; it's that the game designers haven't gotten around to a volume of spells/items/countermeasures that have that kind of campaign in mind. I mean, shield and wind wall are pretty fundamental effects, and the odds are that a wizard hired for ship's duty will know spells that are geared around defending ships - otherwise what's he being paid for?

I don't really expect a "Ships and the Sea" expansion to see print any time soon, which sadly puts the onus on individual GMs to create home-brewed spells like "protection from bombardment," "disrupt wall of fire effects," and "redirect cloudkill".


You will never find any RAW ruling on it but I would probably have it work as alchemical siege engine ammunition but maybe without the italicized portion:

PRD wrote:

Alchemical Fire: This hard, ceramic canister of alchemist's fire can be used as ammunition in catapults and trebuchets. When it hits its target square, it deals 4d6 points of fire damage to each creature and wooden structure within 5 feet of the target space, and each creature must make a DC 20 Reflex saving throw or catch on fire (wooden objects automatically catch on fire). Every creature and wooden object within the area between 5 and 30 feet of the target space must make a DC 20 Reflex saving throw or take half the fire damage, but they do not catch on fire.

On a siege engine mishap, this ammunition explodes before it is launched, dealing its damage to the siege engine and all nearby creatures and wooden objects as if one of the spaces of the siege engine (crew leader's choice) were the target square. This alchemical fire ignores the hardness of wooden objects.

In any event I would not worry too much about it unless you see it being abused. I figure there would be some significant penalties in hitting your square and the cost is like 500 gp with a couple rounds to get it off.

Like I said, not RAW, but I like to reward innovative play and thinking.


HalifaxDM wrote:

You will never find any RAW ruling on it but I would probably have it work as alchemical siege engine ammunition but maybe without the italicized portion:

PRD wrote:

Alchemical Fire: This hard, ceramic canister of alchemist's fire can be used as ammunition in catapults and trebuchets. When it hits its target square, it deals 4d6 points of fire damage to each creature and wooden structure within 5 feet of the target space, and each creature must make a DC 20 Reflex saving throw or catch on fire (wooden objects automatically catch on fire). Every creature and wooden object within the area between 5 and 30 feet of the target space must make a DC 20 Reflex saving throw or take half the fire damage, but they do not catch on fire.

On a siege engine mishap, this ammunition explodes before it is launched, dealing its damage to the siege engine and all nearby creatures and wooden objects as if one of the spaces of the siege engine (crew leader's choice) were the target square. This alchemical fire ignores the hardness of wooden objects.

In any event I would not worry too much about it unless you see it being abused. I figure there would be some significant penalties in hitting your square and the cost is like 500 gp with a couple rounds to get it off.

Like I said, not RAW, but I like to reward innovative play and thinking.

This actually seems like the best way to run it in terms of damage and effect.


I have 2 solutions, both very similar, but dependant on how the mass of 25 bombs is dropped. the 2 ways I see 25 bombs being dropped that I see is either dropping a bag full of them either closed or open, or using said bag to pour them out so they kind of carpet bomb the ship or at least land in a nice decent sized cluster. My answer as a GM to either scenario involves almost no dice rolls, no initiative, and no combat rounds. The whole scene gets described out in possibly gruesome detail as if it were a cutscene in a video game. Unless you somehow manage or decide that the firebombs immolate the entire crew of said ship, they will quickly begin putting out any fires that happened to start. Best case scenario, you kill off a few important crewmen or have some of the crew still busy putting out fires when you board.

In my opinion the whole thing would better be done not from some exotic flying mount but from the deck of a ship either in pursuit or being pursued by the target ship. The best of both of those options could be accomplished with a fireball or 2 and some very handy archery. Though the archery could very easily be done from the back of said exotic flying mount.

PSY


Actually I am the GM but my players have already asked about this one. I figure this should work both ways and a something flying from one ship to other is in range of cannons, spells, and archery for quite some time.

I should very much be a standard action to drop the sack. -4 as an improvised weapon makes sense but that would really apply to any dropped and not thrown weapon.

Not sure if the damage should scale linearly.
1 pounds = 1d6 splash 1
3 pounds = 2d6 splash 2
6 pounds = 3d6 splash 3
10 pounds =4d6 splash 4/1
15 pounds =5d6 splash 5/2
21 pounds =6d6 splash 6/3
28 pounds =7d6 splash 7/4/1
32 pounds =8d6 splash 8/5/2
41 pounds =9d6 splash 9/6/3
51 pounds =10d6 splash 10/7/4/1

Splash is 5'/10'/15'/20'

Hardness is applied to initial burst and to splashed squares. A targeted location does not take splash damage but 5 foot splash will hit a nearby rigging location, while a 10 foot splash will hit a 2nd hull location. A 15 foot splash will hit all adjacent locations.

Splashed hull locations will not take much damage but rigging only has a hardness of 1. The real danger comes form fires breaking out in areas beyond the 1st. The 1st area will almost certainly catch fire since the DC on the the reflex save is 20+ damage done.


Thanks claxon, that is perfect. Same price as alchemist fire per pound. With a spread that far it will hit all adjacent sections.

That is enough damage to put a crimp in ship since it will hit many crew members.

More can dropped at the same time but each one will only add half as much as the one before.
1=4d6
2=6d6
3=7d6
5=8d6
9=9d6

This pattern of diminishing returns encourages you to use them over time. Also nice that they only start 1 fire and no splash.

Figure lamp oil can substituted but will require 5 times as much for the same effect. Still much cheaper but harder to get there.

Thanks for the help.

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