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Well if they are constantly trying to break/ destroy encounters, overshadow fellow players, find loop holes in ruling and complete every challenge and dilema alone...
I would close the books, fold up the GM Screen and simply say..
"congratulations, you have won Pathfinder, what should we do now/ next?"
Just really for my own curiosity could you give a break down of the 60 AC for the Monk in question?
I am also curious about this one.
Either your monk player is one cunning player( or at least more so than me;)) or there is a few bad calculations in there.
I think Gargs raises good points. Character optimization starts with the idea that at 20th level I want to be able to X, Y, and Z, so I'll lay out a plan on how to achieve this result. There's nothing inherently wrong with this. It's similar to real life thinking, where a person decides they want to be a doctor, so they plan out how to get into the school they want, how to get the residency they want, what kind of practice they want, etc. . . While their plan to be a doctor might work out, life has a way of derailing things. Even if they become a doctor, I'd be willing to bet it didn't work out exactly how they thought it would.
The path to becoming a doctor or accountant has obstacles, but the decision to do so is a fairly stable decision with a somewhat predictable pay-off. The decision to become a daring adventurer, plunging into abandoned ruins and facing deadly unknown monsters is probably less predictable.
Anyone who's read Gygax's Gord the Rogue stories knows that most of time, he and Chert were often just hoping to survive the encounter with a few coins to rub together. They still find items that are useful and become stronger, but their best schemes rarely have the pay-off they want; which sucks for them, but is still better than them having to get a job. lol
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The problem with reduced magic item availability is that the system math assumes those items are there. If you account for that by running an E6 game, reducing the stats of all foes, or giving inherent bonuses to characters as they level, fine.
However, if you don't allow items, and you don't adjust your encounters, then the game breaks and PCs die.
The idea that the DM may have to modulate the encounter to provide a reasonable challenge to the players isn't beyond the pale. As far I can see, no one is saying not to give them items. They're saying don't give them everything they want simply because they have an idea how to become uber-powerful.
Believe it or not, every adventurer in the world doesn't have a Handy Haversack. Some people just have to carry their stuff in a normal backpack.
When I see statements like, "Here's my list of items I will require for my build.", from the players, I call BS.
Saying no to inferior Ioun Stones is ok i think.
When I see statements like, "Here's my list of items I will require for my build.", from the players, I smile and start deciding how hard to make them work for it, but will do my level best to provide it all to them in a timely manner.
All well and good, but the problem the OP seems to be facing is that they don't seem to be able to do this. They've fallen into the trap of thinking that they don't have the power to do so.
If you want to hurt this Monk and get him out of the way, there are options. If he has been angering any somewhat powerful NPCs, think wether or not they would hire an assassin to take the monk out while they sleep. One of my players was spreading slanderous insults and rumours about a pirate captain in one game after stealing one of that captain's extra ships. He had enough (I gave him plenty of chances to cover his tracks and gave warnings) so at night he had a wizard scry on the ship's cabin, saw that he was in there asleep, and they both teleported in and executed him. When you're asleep, your AC is zero.
So yeah if you want to hurt this monk, you gotta think outside the numbers and be clever. You have to be tactful and strategic. Don't do a straight up fight. Ambushes, pick pockets, etc... There are things you can do. And then for his next character, supervise his build. I have a rule with my players. If it is outside the core rule book OR a magic item, you have to confirm it with me first. You always need to supervise player shopping.
This is another version of "rocks fall..."
I am not crying Bad Wrong Fun, but almost;)
I don't think the OP wants to kill the character, just move him to a more manageable level that allows for all of the players (including their self) to have fun.
If it was just a matter of killing him, it wouldn't be so difficult. I'm pretty sure his touch AC isn't 60 either. A brutal encounter in a haunted dungeon with multiple ghosts could show him his weakness.
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Back to the OP, remember AC is only one of many defenses. Touch AC, Fort, Reflex, Will, and CMD are all things that can be attacked as well.
Monks have good saves, but if they worked this hard to boost AC, chances are CMD isn't as high. Grapple, Trip, Bull Rush, Reposition, and Dirty Tricks can wither deny the monk actions or limit his options.
Even if you can't reliably hit the Monk vs any of those defenses, there are ways to isolate the monk via Difficult Terrain, wall spells, and so on.
Back to the OP, remember AC is only one of many defenses. Touch AC, Fort, Reflex, Will, and CMD are all things that can be attacked as well.
Monks have good saves, but if they worked this hard to boost AC, chances are CMD isn't as high. Grapple, Trip, Bull Rush, Reposition, and Dirty Tricks can wither deny the monk actions or limit his options.
Even if you can't reliably hit the Monk vs any of those defenses, there are ways to isolate the monk via Difficult Terrain, wall spells, and so on.
If a monk's AC is this good, it's reasonable to assume that his CMD is also really high, as are his Reflex and Will saves. Combine this with a monk's immunity to poison and disease, and that leaves a lot less vulnerability than you might think. High jump also allows for bypassing difficult terrain.
The problem with reduced magic item availability is that the system math assumes those items are there.
This is a design flaw.
Without getting into rocks fall, you die territory, there are some things in the game that will make him lose, legit. Some enemies will destroy some characters without bothering others. How does he like swarms? How about armies? How about smart villains, the kind who try to stay at least 500 miles away from you at all times?
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Cap. Darling, I never have fun killing a PC. I just make sure there are always consequences. My group though tells me I have a mind like Machiovelli when it comes to how smarter enemies react to the PCs. I also try to never cheat and just do a rocks fall or blue lightning thing.
I am sure it works fine for your group. And that is what is important. That is why i ditent cry. Your story was a ingame reaction to a ingame thing. But looking for a guy to hire an assasin because the player want to use a cracked Ioun stone is close to rocks fall IMOP.
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The problem with reduced magic item availability is that the system math assumes those items are there. If you account for that by running an E6 game, reducing the stats of all foes, or giving inherent bonuses to characters as they level, fine.
However, if you don't allow items, and you don't adjust your encounters, then the game breaks and PCs die.
To be clear, I am not advocating less magic items per se, just that it might not be "All Items All the Time!"
For Example: "The merchant thinks for a minute and then starts rummaging through his shelves. After a few minutes he comes back and says 'Sorry, I don't have that special, magical, trip-aiding weapon you are looking for, but I do have this fine magical hammer!"
or:
The monastery doesn't have any Amulets of Might Fists available, but they do have a really nice magical quarterstaff.
etc., etc.
The idea is that in the end, the party still has the right WBL, but it just might not necessarily be in the form that the players had initially anticipated. Now, I will agree that it does require a bit more planning than simply random rolls in order to ensure that said items that are available are in fact usable by the party, but I don't think that it needs to specifically be the items that the party wants.
Or in the spirit of the Daily Earworm: You can't always get what you want, but just might find that you get what you need.
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If as a GM you are going to do this, then please tell you players they they may not get a magic Glaive before they put the weapon focus and specialization feats into a weapon.
If someone builds their character around having a particular weapon, then giving them a different one is making them a NPC class by effectively taking away those feats.
...I don't think that it needs to specifically be the items that the party wants...Neither do I; but that's one of the fundamental differences between GMs. You and I figure that making the best of the world they're given, and using whatever's found, and maybe even (Gozreh save us!) having to go on an adventure specifically to find a magic item that's just right for your character, add realism to the world and give the character adversity to overcome. Other GMs, and I'm not saying they're entirely wrong, feel that the player won't be truly content until he has that perfect item, so why not let him turn in a wheelbarrow-load of treasure and get it now so the player can enjoy it?
It's not necessarily "player entitlement", just a different view of the GM's role.
Oh I agree with you wholeheartedly. It's also why I suggest that if you are going to go the route out I laid out, that you make sure that your players understand that at the outset. That way they can build their characters accordingly.
I think in particular, its perhaps even easier for me to enjoy (as a player) the style of game where you learn to work with what you find, as opposed to simply getting everything you want. However, this is largely because I am almost always the GM, so when I do get the chance to be a "player", I can have loads of fun with just about anything. I'm currently playing a monk that had initially intended to be a straight up Unarmed Strike monk. However, along the way he picked up a particular weapon and was taught how to use it as part of an adventure. The monk was really impacted by the events of said adventure and has since decided to use the weapon (a nanigata) as much as he can. This will definitely require a rethinking of the character progression for a variety of reasons, but its far more fun for me (as a player) this way.
That said, others would rather just have their plan and stick to it and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that approach. Both styles of play can be fun. Just as there really isn't anything wrong with players that just want to bash heads as effectively as possible and could care less about "roleplay". Its just a good idea to make sure that everyone is on the same page when the group gets together.
If as a GM you are going to do this, then please tell you players they they may not get a magic Glaive before they put the weapon focus and specialization feats into a weapon.
If someone builds their character around having a particular weapon, then giving them a different one is making them a NPC class by effectively taking away those feats.
Oh absolutely. As I said, its always important to make sure that everyone is on the same page from the beginning. The same would go if you wanted to run a low magic campaign, gladiator arena campaign (i.e. where the entire campaign takes place in the arena), urban only campaign, etc., etc.
To answer your question about the ioun stone.
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Yes. its too good.
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The effect in question is "Spell storing" for 2000 gold.
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For reference: Spell storing on a weapon costs a +1 enhancement, stacting with at least 1 other +1 enhancement, ergo at its cheapest 8000-2000= 6000 gold if you discount the underliing weapon, then consider that spell storing weapons have set limits to the spells allowed inside and how they are triggered.
Second reference: Spell storing on armor is similar to on weapons, save that the least expensive instance of it is cheaper (3000) yet even more limited.
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This means that just paying 2000 to have acess to any spell is wildly imbalanced and it should be banned.
Yeah, I should add that even when doing a more or less random magic item shop, I would still allow, and even encourage, the PCs to let the merchant(s) know if there are any particular items that they are on the hunt for. Perhaps the PC even drops some extra gold on the merchant in order to really get him to keep his ear to ground so to speak.
Doing that, I would then increase the likelihood that the desired item is available the next time the PCs come to town. Eventually, it may even become an auto "success" so to speak. In the meantime though the players get the opportunity to learn how to make their characters work with other items.
Obviously, this style isn't for everyone, but hopefully in the long run, it ends up being really enjoyable.
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Spell storing on a weapon or armor allows for up to 3rd level spells. The cracked violet purple prism allows only a first level spell. Spell Storing weapons and armor are also activated as free actions, vs the standard action required by an ioun stone.
The higher prices on spell storing weapons and armor reflect the much larger range of spells available and the improved action economy.
The monk can pay 2000 gp for an ioun stone that stores Shield and requires a standard action, or pay 4000 gp for bracers that store Mirror Image or Displacement and casts as a free action. Which is more powerful when used by a character that already has a high AC?
for those with a ye old magic shop mentality use the settlement stat blocks provided they have a base value that determines what you can find in a city, anything equal to or below that amount there is a 75% chance of it being in said settlement. If that seems too high for you it can always be changed as you see fit.
I'm just gonna spitball his AC bonuses because I don't have his character sheet right meow.
10 Base
5 Monk AC Bonus (Monk's Robe brings this to a 20th level monk's bonus)
7 Dex
6 Wisdom
4 Mage Armor
4 Shield Ioun Stone
4 Nat Armor Amulet
5 Ring of Protection
6 Crane Wing/Rod of Balance/Fighting defensively
1 Jingasa of the fortunate soldier
=53?
This is far off 60 so perhaps it was a miscommunication on his and I's part, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were more bonuses I'm missing. Targeting Ioun stones feels dirty to me. But any intelligent foe with magic item knowledge would do it if their foe was immune to their attacks otherwise. Right?
Also, this player is the best roleplayer at the table. This is a good example of a powergamer that can roleplay.
To answer your question about the ioun stone.
.
.
Yes. its too good.
.
.
.
The effect in question is "Spell storing" for 2000 gold.
.
.
.
For reference: Spell storing on a weapon costs a +1 enhancement, stacting with at least 1 other +1 enhancement, ergo at its cheapest 8000-2000= 6000 gold if you discount the underliing weapon, then consider that spell storing weapons have set limits to the spells allowed inside and how they are triggered.Second reference: Spell storing on armor is similar to on weapons, save that the least expensive instance of it is cheaper (3000) yet even more limited.
.This means that just paying 2000 to have acess to any spell is wildly imbalanced and it should be banned.
A better comparison is Cloak of the Hedge Wizard: cast 2 first level spells once per day, plus 2 cantrips as often as you want (all are standard actions). A different cloak for each magic school lets you get most of the spells you want. Total cost: 2500 gp.
How can this rock be considered wildly imbalanced?
First, I have to have someone who can cast the spell I want and who is willing to cast it into the stone (which I might have to pay for). Second, it can be targeted by any attack. Third, I still have to spend a standard action to activate it.
My 10th level cleric picked up a couple of these to pass out 1st-level, self-only buffs to the party (Divine favor, Longstrider, etc.). Most of the time, they came back to her at the end of the day, unused. Far from being "unbalanced", our group was wondering whether they were even worth the price.
Are people maybe confusing the "cracked" version of this Ioun stone (1 first level spell cast at first level) with the "flawless" version (3 levels of spells) that goes for 36,000 gp?
I'm discussing the cracked version that offers first level spells to characters who can't cast spells. While it only lasts 1 minute, it's not hard to know ahead of time as a 15th level party (scrying, 30+ perception, see invisibility, gamer trope sense) when shit's about to go down. 2000g for 4 shield to any character is ludicrous. As I said before, targtting ioun stones seems like the best option here. It's just super mean lol.
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The Stone functions as a ring of spell storing, and per the PRD, The ring is stuck with CL 1. "Each spell has a caster level equal to the minimum level needed to cast that spell."
I'm discussing the cracked version that offers first level spells to characters who can't cast spells. While it only lasts 1 minute, it's not hard to know ahead of time as a 15th level party (scrying, 30+ perception, see invisibility, gamer trope sense) when s+!%'s about to go down. 2000g for 4 shield to any character is ludicrous. As I said before, targtting ioun stones seems like the best option here. It's just super mean lol.Any character can do it for 750 with a wand and a single point in UMD. And they can do it 50 times without a caster to recharge it.
This is a fair point I did not consider.
I think Gargs raises good points. Character optimization starts with the idea that at 20th level I want to be able to X, Y, and Z, so I'll lay out a plan on how to achieve this result. There's nothing inherently wrong with this. It's similar to real life thinking, where a person decides they want to be a doctor, so they plan out how to get into the school they want, how to get the residency they want, what kind of practice they want, etc. . .
So, pre-med students are powergaming real life?