Can I Upgrade a Manual or Tome?

[Smite Makes Right]

Can I upgrade a tome or manual in order to purchase the inherent bonuses in increments?

Kyle Baird wrote:

Can I Upgrade a Named Magic Item?
Named magic items—including specific armor and specific weapons—are not upgradeable. Non-magic specific armor and specific weapons may be upgraded normally. Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions. Wondrous items whose names include a +X value (such as bracers of armor, headband of vast intelligence, amulet of might fists, etc.) may also be upgraded following the rules for upgrading magical items on page 19 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

Because the tomes and manuals become non magical after use, I would assume that they cannot be. Or more accurately, that if you buy one and don't read it, only then can you upgrade it.

I would love for this to be allowed since it seems that as it stands, tomes and manuals below +5 are wasteful. If it is not allowed now, it would be nice, in the interest of playability, that players be allowed to purchase inherent bonuses by paying the difference between the current bonus sought and the last purchased.

[Starglim]

PFS doesn't alter the core rules for inherent bonuses as far as I know. There would seem no reason to buy a tome or manual and not use it, so that's unlikely to come up.

[Smite Makes Right]

Well, actually, as things are, tomes and manuals are a bad investment. If you buy a +1 and then a +5, you get the same bonus as just buying the +5. In games where found is found, might as well use it, it's fine, but in PFS, where you only buy gear, anything less than a +5 is wasted gold that you can't get back if you are going to later buy a higher bonus tome/manual.

Considering the change in the loot model for PFS, it would be nice if the upgrading mechanic applied to tomes/manuals.

So, spend 27.5k to get a +1 inherent bonus. Level up. pay another 27.5k to increase your bonus to +2, and so on.

Superficially, it is in keeping with the spirit of upgrading mechanics, but I think you can upgrade gear by paying the difference in normal Pathfinder, so the PFS upgrade mechanics are a clarification and this is a rule deviation.

I take it from your response that you cannot upgrade tomes/manuals after gaining their bonus?

[Acedio]

Smite Makes Right wrote:

Well, actually, as things are, tomes and manuals are a bad investment. If you buy a +1 and then a +5, you get the same bonus as just buying the +5. In games where found is found, might as well use it, it's fine, but in PFS, where you only buy gear, anything less than a +5 is wasted gold that you can't get back if you are going to later buy a higher bonus tome/manual.

Considering the change in the loot model for PFS, it would be nice if the upgrading mechanic applied to tomes/manuals.

So, spend 27.5k to get a +1 inherent bonus. Level up. pay another 27.5k to increase your bonus to +2, and so on.

Superficially, it is in keeping with the spirit of upgrading mechanics, but I think you can upgrade gear by paying the difference in normal Pathfinder, so the PFS upgrade mechanics are a clarification and this is a rule deviation.

I take it from your response that you cannot upgrade tomes/manuals after gaining their bonus?

This is an consequence of the rules for stat tomes in general, this is not a PFS specific problem. At a home game, the GM has the ability to allow your stat tome to be upgradable.

But RAW, the stat tome is a consumable. It is not something you equip. Therefore you can't upgrade it like you would magical items.

+4 and +5 stat tomes are great investments. Anything less gets to be shaky, as higher level modules yield enough gold to make it likely that you will be able to afford a high bonus tome.

[SCPRedMage]

According to the FAQ, yes, you can upgrade a manual/tome.

Pathfinder Society FAQ wrote:

Wondrous items whose names include a +X value (such as bracers of armor, headband of vast intelligence, amulet of might fists, etc.) may also be upgraded following the rules for upgrading magical items on page 19 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

However, as you stated, once used, the book is no longer magical, and thus there is nothing left to upgrade, because the rules cover upgrading item.

To put it another way, in PFS, you almost certainly will never see anyone upgrading a tome/manual, because there is no point in purchasing one, and then not use it.

[David Neilson]

I believe each is an inherent bonus. So you can just get five +1 tomes and use each in sequence. That is why the price is a linear increase and not quadratic.

[Jeff Merola]

David Neilson wrote:

I believe each is an inherent bonus. So you can just get five +1 tomes and use each in sequence. That is why the price is a linear increase and not quadratic.

The problem is that they're all inherent bonuses, and those don't stack. So if you read a +1 book, and then a +1 book, you still only have a +1 stat increase.

[Mattastrophic]

SCPRedMage wrote:

To put it another way, in PFS, you almost certainly will never see anyone upgrading a tome/manual, because there is no point in purchasing one, and then not use it.

I may be the corner case. I purchased a +4 Manual for my character, as the stat was even, but then she ended up hitting 20th level with GM credit. It looks like I have the option of upgrading that Manual to +5 and using the 20th level stat boost to make it even again.

-Matt

[Jeff Merola]

David Neilson wrote:

If an inherent bonus does not stack, then past level 12 you always need a +4 manual if you have put all your leveling stat increases to the same state you are using the manual for. Since the bonus for leveling is an inherent bonus.

The bonus for leveling is not an inherent bonus.

[David Neilson]

Double checking it appears you are right. It the ability increases are untyped bonuses.
On the posters main point since you expend the manual I do not see a way you could then increase it later. Just like I could not change a scroll that has already been cast unfortunately.

[Smite Makes Right]

Mattastrophic wrote:

SCPRedMage wrote:

To put it another way, in PFS, you almost certainly will never see anyone upgrading a tome/manual, because there is no point in purchasing one, and then not use it.

I may be the corner case. I purchased a +4 Manual for my character, as the stat was even, but then she ended up hitting 20th level with GM credit. It looks like I have the option of upgrading that Manual to +5 and using the 20th level stat boost to make it even again.

-Matt

However, since you used the manual, it is no longer a magic item in your possession available to be upgraded.

[SCPRedMage]

Smite Makes Right wrote:

Mattastrophic wrote:

SCPRedMage wrote:

To put it another way, in PFS, you almost certainly will never see anyone upgrading a tome/manual, because there is no point in purchasing one, and then not use it.

I may be the corner case. I purchased a +4 Manual for my character, as the stat was even, but then she ended up hitting 20th level with GM credit. It looks like I have the option of upgrading that Manual to +5 and using the 20th level stat boost to make it even again.

-Matt

However, since you used the manual, it is no longer a magic item in your possession available to be upgraded.

Actually, he's saying that he purchased the manual, but hasn't actually played the character since the purchase, and thus hasn't actually had the chance to say he's used it, meaning the item is still technically in his inventory.

Basically, so long as there's no documentation that he actually used the book, he can still upgrade it.

[Acedio]

Indeed. This should be fine as long as on the ITS its clearly documented what scenarios it was upgraded and when it was used.

But you definitely cannot upgrade once you've used it.