Halfling Fighter


Advice


Howdy, all. I've built a halfling fighter, weapons master archetype, who uses an improvised weapon (stats are for the light mace, small damage.) He currently has the Catch Off Guard and Power Attack feats to counter the improv weapon penalties and to allow him to do more damage relative to his weight class.

I want to keep him fast and help him hit harder. Any suggestions as to where to go for the next few feats?


Risky Striker. It is a halfling racial feat that gives you -1 to AC in order to gain what is basically a second power attack. Yes, as in +2 to damage, with another +2/4 levels. And it stacks with power attack.

It does come with the slight restriction that it only works on things 2 sizes bigger than you (so large normally). But after a certain point? Just about everything that is a threat and not a squishy mage/rogue thing will likely be large+. So it is a rather safe bet once you start seeing these things commonly.


Risky Striker, maybe.

Quick, Great dirty tricks so you can Blind your opponents, and take some levels in something that gives you Sneak Attack damage. I like that idea, and you know, Halfling rogue...

How about 5 levels of Inquisitor and get a bonus Teamwork Feat at level 3 and Bane at level 5.

Shadow Lodge

jm2cloud wrote:
Howdy, all. I've built a halfling fighter, weapons master archetype, who uses an improvised weapon (stats are for the light mace, small damage.) He currently has the Catch Off Guard and Power Attack feats to counter the improv weapon penalties and to allow him to do more damage relative to his weight class.

The main problem you're going to run into here is stacking Power Attack penalties with small-race strength penalties. You're also spending an unnecessary feat (CoG) in order to deliberately use weapon that remains suboptimal.

Basically, you're making a "gimp".

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

The most effective small race fighter builds employ DEX as the highest stat in conjunction with either Agile weapons or Mythic Weapon Finesse, and Piranha Strike. (As a light weapon, the mace qualifies for Piranha Strike.) Alignment permitting, a couple paladin levels put the racial CHA bump to good use:

E.g., something like....

STR:10
DEX+17 (15,14,12,12,12,12 20pt array)
CON:14
INT:12
WIS:12
CHA+14

traits: Rice Runner (Acrobatics class), Dangerous Curious (UMD class)

00 saves (+1 racial)
01 05 04 02 fight1 Weapon Finesse, Piranha Strike
02 06 04 02 fight2 Weapon Focus: Shortsword
03 08 04 04 pala1 [smite] Iron Will
04 09 05 07 pala2 DEX>18 [divine grace][lay on hands]
05 09 06 08 fight3 Risky Striker
06 10 06 08 fight4 Weapon Specialization: Shortsword
07 10 06 08 fight5 [Weapon Training:Light Blades], Vital Strike
08 11 07 09 fight6 Greater Weapon Focus: Shortsword

* Alternate build dips barbarian [urban]; result is higher attack bonus and damage versus non-evil, but poorer saves and worse skill.)

Equipment at 8th: +1/Agile shortsword, STR belt, CHA headband, Cloak, shield, collection of cheap wands (including Mage Armor and Longstrider) and scrolls

Shopping list: Gloves of Dueling, Celestial Plate, cracked pale greens

Abilities:
* no-fail trigger basic divine items via paladin list
* trigger arcane items via UMD
* full-BAB "face"
* d6+22 "all in" damage versus large at 8th (if DEX:20 and Gloves)
* far better saves than the average d10 class
* casts Mage Armor until Celestial
* fighter armor training eliminates armor movement penalty
* 3/4th small encumbrance versus half-weight equipment = win


I think Risky Striker is more than an offset to Halfling's reduced damage, although I think it is even more significant that the weapons themselves do less damage because they're smaller. I like incorporating the Bane and Sneak Attack into the build precisely because they do the same damage regardless of the size of the attacker.

But Sir Thugsalot's idea that you should emphasize Dex is interesting. Say focus on scimitar and take Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dancer. Now both your attack and damage rolls are dex based. If you're using a simitar, you've just got to have Improved Crit.

And he should have saber scars on his face and talk with a German accent...

Shadow Lodge

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
But Sir Thugsalot's idea that you should emphasize Dex is interesting. Say focus on scimitar and take Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dancer. Now both your attack and damage rolls are dex based. If you're using a simitar, you've just got to have Improved Crit.

The problem with scimitars is that they aren't light weapons.

If I simply *had* to have a d4 small-race one-handed weapon, I'd rather have an ordinary shortsword (light) than a scimitar (not light). Otherwise the d3 kukri (forfeiting half a point average for extended-threat range) is superior.

Why the need for a light weapon?

-- Required for Piranha Strike.


Scimitar gets you Dex to damage at second level (Dervish Dance). That's going to be better than Pirhana strike for quite awhile. Eventually, you can buy an Agile weapon and then you can stack them (retrain Dervish Dance?), but that's a ways off.

Still, the OP's concept is small improvised weapon user. I don't think he's taking either of those for the mechanical benefits. Nor is a strength based halfing really that far behind, though I'd probably go for a 2hand weapon for the extra damage. Even a 2H improvised weapon, if you want to go that route.


Halflings due to size get a +1 to hit as opposed to medium size PC's.

The small weapons on average do what, a whole point of damage less than medium sized?

Assuming you took power attack at level one, in the early levels I'd think the +1 to hit would more than cancel out the penalty of the small size weapons.

Later on Risky Striker will get you around most of your penalty anyway, though weapon base damage gets to be a non-issue since most of your damage is from weapon training/specialization and strength, plus weapon properties.

I just don't think it matters.

What does matter is that:

1) Small size gives you a handicap against combat maneuvers.

2) The dex bonus will add to saves. But dex builds are pretty much a trap for fighters. There are some interesting things you can do with two weapon fighting and shields, but it requires you sinking a ton of feats into it, with not much more payoff, if any, versus...

Using a two handed weapon.

Now you might be angling for duelist, or shadowdancer or something of the sort. But in general str builds are better.

I guess I could defend that statement, but if you want me to, do a lot of reading on these boards, and get back to me on that.

3) Make sure you substitute Fleet of Foot for Slow Speed and Sure-Footed. The skill bonuses just aren't a fighters bag, and as often said they are meaningless in the long run (unless you are actually using acrobatics). My biggest beef with small races is the slow speed, and this makes up for it.

Now if you did want to go dex based, you can do a lot with dual wielding kukris, getting crit feats, and dazing assault. There is a load of conditions and saves you can make an opponent make, and they are bound to fail one, even if your damage isn't as good as your buddy Fred and his Falchion.

Just want to say a str build is perfectly viable for a halfling. You can do interesting things with a dex build, but a str build is as viable for them as anyone. You might be 2 points of str behind due to your race, but you do get some features that kind of make up for it.


It's actually a little worse than that. You're really 4 points behind most fighters in Str, since you've got a penalty where most common fighters will be able to put the racial bonus in Str. And the small size damage penalty. So you're starting out basically at -2 to hit and -3 damage. (-4 with a two-handed weapon.) The small size attack bonus cancels out some of the strength attack penalty, but you're still worse off. Power Attack doesn't really change anything, since the medium fighter will be doing the same thing. You've also got +1 AC.

OTOH, even with that, you'll probably be doing enough damage early on, since a base 2H fighter is plenty at low level. Later, Risky Striker helps a lot. And the other static bonus build up, so that your penalties aren't as significant.


If you are dipping into rogue to get that extra sneak attack damage, you can then look into the feint line of feats.

Improved Feint - Feint as a move action
Passing Trick - Successful Acrobatics lets you feint

Disorienting Maneuver - Successful Tumble gets +2 attack on that victim.

So, with these (and the prereqs), you can:
Tumble by an enemy. If successful, it lets you try your bluff check. Make the bluff check, and he's flat footed. Make your sneak attack, he has no dex modifier, AND you get a +2 for the disorienting maneuver. Easy to hit, and does excellent damage. It's a decent feat tree to get there, but very few in the tree don't provide good benefits (combat expertise is perhaps the least useful, depending on whether your in a situation where defense is more important than offense).

Underfoot is also VERY excellent in combination with these. +4 on your acrobatics check to move around the enemy, and a +2 extra AC against AoO when/if you fail.


Halfling Fighter/Rogue:

........BUY RACE LVL
STR 13 = 15 - 2
DEX 18 = 15 + 2 + 1
CON 10 = 10
INT 13 = 13
WIS 8 = 8
CHA 14 = 14

Halfling
Fearless
Halfling Luck
Sure-Footed
Low Blow

Lvl 1 - Fighter
- Bonus Feat (Dodge)
- Feat (Mobility)
- Bravery +1
Lvl 2 - Fighter
- Bonus Feat (Combat Expertise)
Lvl 3 - Fighter
- Feat (Improved Feint)
- Armor Training 1
Lvl 4 - Fighter
- Bonus Feat (Underfoot)
- Dexteriity +1
Lvl 5 - Rogue
- Feat (Disorienting Maneuver)
- Sneak Attack +1d6
- Trapfinding

Acrobatics +14 = 5 (ranks) + 3 (class) + 4 (dex) + 2 (sure-footed)
............. + 4 to tumble past medium or larger

Bluff +12 = 5 (ranks) + 3 (class) + 3 (cha) +1 (trait)
..........+1 humanoids or halflings

Small Masterwork Longsword
. Attack +7 = +4 (BAB) +1 (str) +1 (size) +1 (masterwork)
............+2 if successfully tumbled by victim
............+1 to confirm critical against medium or larger (Low Blow)
............+1 vs humanoids or halflings during surprise round (Cold and Calculating)

. Damage 1d6+1
..........+1d6 if successfully feint opponent


Holy crap, this exploded. Never had a forum react this fast, so my apologies for the time lapse before I came back.

Ok, so I actually had the char already rolled up when I posted this. My GM had my sheets, but I got a pic of them today, so here's the base stats:

STR 14 +2
DEX 17 +3
CON 15 +2
INT 11 +0
WIS 13 +1
CHA 15 +2

He's actually doing decent damage even without Power Attack, although that may be a function of good rolls more than anything else.

I saw Risky Striker up there a lot, so that'll probably be either my next move, or at least in the near future.

I also like to Fleet of Foot idea. Faster is definitely better, here.

thejeff wrote:
...the OP's concept is small improvised weapon user. I don't think he's taking either of those for the mechanical benefits. ...

Nail on the head. I like mechanics, but I built the char to be funny. SirThugsalot, yes, it's kinda gimpy. But it's fun to play, and watching my DM try to seriously describe a halfling wielding an oversized frying pan taking on enemies is half the fun of the build here.

That said, I'll look more closely at the DEX side. Pirahna Strike does sound interesting, although its a bit outside the idea for the build.

Thank you all for the advice so far!

Shadow Lodge

It's harder to be gimpy as a 31pt character.

Sczarni

There's one more point nobody's mentioned yet-- thanks to CoG, as long as your opponent is unarmed, you'll be hitting flat-footed AC, effectively giving you an extra bonus on attack rolls (an unpredictable one, though). This would make Sneak Attack an extra-attractive choice.

I'm kind of surprised nobody who suggested Rogue mentioned that. Still, you don't qualify for Combat Expertise (and therefore Improved Disarm) so I'm not sure it's worth pursuing seriously.

Can you take Weapon Focus/Specialization with an improvised weapon?


I've been working on a halfling cavalier (emissary) for pfs play. A heads up, I've never actually played pathfinder (just 2nd edition back in the day) but on paper he looks all right.

Take power attack at first level, use a small or normal lance mounted and a small two-handed sword. at 14 strength you are still power attacking for 1d10+6. lance is 1d6+6x2. Take helpful (halfling) trait to boost aid another to +4, which is nice. risky striker at 3, more damage against people that matter. mobility at 4, ride-by attack at 5. take order of the paw, you can give your party save rerolls and later on continue your tendency to hate big things. a halfling knight with a size complex, sounds fun to play in any case.

oh, and with that racial trait for movement you can get 30ft a round in medium armor as an emissary, or if you really want to be glued to your mount take the +2 ride.

halfling charge monkey probably isn't ground breaking, but it's how I would go..


Silent Saturn, my GM said I could, but then pointed out the Weapons Master Archetype gets a free version at 3.

------
Weapon Training (Ex)

At 3rd level, a weapon master gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with his chosen weapon. The bonus improves by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd.

This ability replaces Armor Training 1, 2, 3 and 4.
------

I could probably take it anyway to make that bonus grow faster, though!

cc2600, Thanks for the ideas! I did consider doing a cavalier, but couldn't pick an order. Looking that over, kinda wish I had. But eh, he's playing fairly well.

SirThugsalot, 31pt character? How does that work out to 31pts? (No sarcasm, just new player lost here.)


jm2cloud wrote:

Silent Saturn, my GM said I could, but then pointed out the Weapons Master Archetype gets a free version at 3.

------
Weapon Training (Ex)

At 3rd level, a weapon master gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with his chosen weapon. The bonus improves by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd.

This ability replaces Armor Training 1, 2, 3 and 4.
------

I could probably take it anyway to make that bonus grow faster, though!

cc2600, Thanks for the ideas! I did consider doing a cavalier, but couldn't pick an order. Looking that over, kinda wish I had. But eh, he's playing fairly well.

SirThugsalot, 31pt character? How does that work out to 31pts? (No sarcasm, just new player lost here.)

Weapon Training is different from Weapon Focus/Specialization: Weapon focus is +1 to hit, and Weapon Specialization is +2 to damage. These both stack with Weapon Training.

The Weapon Master Archetype is ideal for a fighter that specializes in a specific weapon build, but none of its abilities work with anything other than that weapon. If your GM is allowing it with improvised weapons, that's cool.

Some other possibilities for an improvised weapon build:
Instead of taking Catch Off Guard, there are two traits that let you use tools from your "regular job" as improvised weapons (Rough and Ready is the one I usually use.)

The CAD fighter archetype has specific class features around improvised weapons and gets Catch Off Guard for free.

The Monk of the Empty Hand gets some nice abilities with improvised weapons.

As far as doing as much damage as a medium-sized character:
Just because you're a Halfling does not mean you have to do a dex-based character. It's a nice option because you have the racial dex bonus, but it's not a necessity. If you're concerned about your CMD, take the favored class bonus "+1 CMD vs Grapple and Trip". (Weapon Master already gives you bonuses against Disarm and Sunder.)

You won't be optimized because of the strength penalty, true, but the reduced die size for you weapon is negligible, really.

In general, if you're worried about maxing out your damage but don't want to build a character around only doing damage, here's the guidelines I use:
1) If you have a strength of 14 or higher, two-handed weapons with Power Attack are always going to do the most damage. If your strength is less than 14, two-weapon fighting is usually your best option. (Note: Combining TWF and Power Attack actually makes you do less damage, not more.)
2) If your Dex mod is more than 2 points higher than your Str mod, consider Weapon Finesse. If not, it's a waste of a feat in the long run.
3) Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training are the biggest boosts for your damage output. If you're a fighter, make sure you get these. After you get Weapon Training, get Gloves of Dueling.

In an optimized world, no one would ever play a Halfling. Ever. Weakest race in the world, in every possible way.
So why are 3/4s of my characters Halflings? No clue--I just love 'em!

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