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As the title says. I have heard all kinds of contradictory claims about charisma, so I have decided that I may as well, once and for all, decide how much charisma a character of mine -really- needs by describing their personality and seeing the advice I get as a result. Anyway, the character is a wizard, from a very powerful noble family, who's personality is largely very nasty and unlikable. Their biggest defining trait is they are EXTREMELY arrogant. They are cocky, have a major attitude, care nothing about others feelings and are extremely quick to boast and brag. They are rude, they are crass, and they they love to put down and insult others just as much as they like to boast, and they take every opportunity they can get to tell people how dumb or pathetic or useless they are. They are also immature, childish and extremely spoiled. They don't care about being well-mannered they are unless it actively benefits them, have a lewd, sophomoric sense of humor and are extremely demanding of everybody around them. They believe themselves entitled to privileges by sheer virtue of their family name, and when they don't get them are known to throw childish fits. They also don't tend to make friends easily and frankly don't care to. They also whine...a lot. So much that you wonder why the hell they became an adventurer in the first place since every time they have to endure the hardships of adventuring their first reaction is to whine like the spoiled noble they are. They are quick to just be mean and nasty, and as a result they tend to provoke very strong -NEGATIVE- reactions from others when their true personality shows. This person is the kind of ****** that you just want to slap in the face every time they open their mouth.
However, on the other hand, they don't lack self confidence and are not shy and introverted. They are EXTREMELY confident, to the point of grating, off-putting arrogance. They also like to talk...a lot. Yes, most of the time it's to brag, show off their knowledge, insult others or whine about something, but none the less they are not shy about opening their mouth. Physically, they are quite attractive. Finally, while their personality is generally nasty and very unlikable, they DO know how to watch their tongue when they need to. While they don't LIKE doing it, and only go into "diplomacy mode" if forced to, they are smart and cunning enough to know how to carefully phrase their words and as a result can navigate social situations surprisingly well. When they want to be, they can be a VERY effective manipulator, treating social situations like a game of chess in which they use their smarts and cunning to phrase their words carefully and resist the urge to be their usual, nasty self. However, while they have this talent, they rarely use it, because it's not -pleasant- for them to "play nice" and as a result they only resort to playing diplomacy chess when it's absolutely necessary or they could get out of a fight that would otherwise be too dangerous for their tastes.
So, how much charisma would this character need in terms of Role Play?
Fielder's choice.
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You are describing a character that can be played many ways, depending on your own emphasis.
As a wizard, there is little need for charisma, so choose how you want to play it. Do you want to emphasize the boorish arrogance? Go with a 7. Do you want to emphasize the confidence and people adoring them at first glance? Go with a 14.
What wizards do have is a lot of skills points. You can make up with learned abilities (skill ranks) what you don't have in natural talent (raw charisma). It comes down to how you want to play the character.
This is what Ciaran Barnes was mentioning.
I'll try and condense your post into some bullet points - feel free to correct me if I make a mistake:
* Generally unpleasant personality - rude, abrasive.
* Physically attractive.
* Not shy or introverted.
* Very intelligent.
* Can handle himself well in social interaction when the situation calls for it, but generally doesn't bother to.
* Highly proficient at social manipulation. Some sociopathic personality traits.
I'd say... A charisma of 7 or 8, but trained and has ranks in social skills such as Diplomacy and Bluff. I'd consider the Student of Philosophy trait to let you use your intelligence bonus in place of your charisma penalty when making diplomacy and bluff checks.
I also find that the character you describe will likely get along well with the dogma of Asmodeus - they share many characteristics. Down the line I'd suggest feats such as Devilish Pride and Diabolical Negotiator.
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A thought might be the bruising intellect trait , uses intelligence instead of charisma for intimidate. I think (but am not sure) there is another trait that could be used to replace charisma with int for others skills. That covers some of this character.
Physical attractiveness is not keyed on charisma so a beautiful maiden could have a 7 while an old hag has a 20.
Hope this helps.
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People are NOT likely to ignore him, but likewise they are NOT likely to take his side and agree with him either unless he's actively watching his words and using his smarts to navigate things. Acting normally, his attempts at diplomacy would likely anger people and make them want to slap him. They won't be passively ignoring him, the'll be wanting to carve his skull in because he's such a arrogant, know-it-all, bratty ****. It's only when he applies his mind to watching his words that he'd actively able to get people on his side. Thus, I'd say he'd likely be what Kudaku described, low charisma, with student of philosophy to apply his intelligence to social maneuvering. Also, as for the Asmodeus connection, it's funny it should be mentioned as this guy was actually planned out as an Egoran Infernal Binder heading to the Diabolist prestige class...and the aforementioned noble house that he comes from happens to be named Thrune...so I'm glad somebody picked up on the Asmodeus connection! :3
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I'd give him a high charisma with decent social skills but make it more that he is portraying himself as having a certain arrogant, demeaning way of speaking to people that insults them in ways that they can't find accurate ways to parry. They only ever agree with him because the way he speaks makes them look bad if they don't take sides with him, which is how he uses diplomacy. Mechanically I'd put just 1 rank in diplomacy, probably max bluff[because he'd be good at taking an indignant stance at accusations of his lying], and a high Intimidate.
Dump charisma down to about 7 or so and take both the trait that lets you add int to diplomacy (for diplomacy mode) and I believe that there's also one that gives bonuses to interactions due to attractiveness. That weird mix should get pretty close to what you're after.
I think you're cheating. Now, that's a strong word, so let me explain myself. No group of adventurers in the world would let this guy join them, and rely upon him for 24/7 travel, saving lives and in general harmonious life.
You of course know that, but are relying upon the "It's a game so we have to let him play" unspoken rule".
This is taking unfair advantage of that unspoken rule, which could be considered cheating.
No one could possibly live with this guy day after day, in the field, with only 3 other people to talk to. He'd be dumped or killed in his sleep within a day or so.
And, it's a little unfair to your fellow players to play such a jerk. By forcing yourself upon them, you could be considered kinda being a jerk.
While I completely disagree with DrDeth, that's not relevant here.
You wanna avoid disagreements with your GM? The only way is to ask him. We are not thy GM's keepers. :P
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I'd agree with what some of the others have been saying--his Charisma would be pretty low with high ranks in social skills (remember, they only come into play if he is ACTIVELY using them). I wasn't aware of the student of philosophy/bruising intellect traits but it sounds like they might not be bad choices.
And hopefully you shouldn't need to be told this, but tread lightly with playing the a**hole character with your players. Often people find it funny at first but after awhile it can lead to hurt feelings or frustration out of game even if you just meant it as a running gag. Just be careful, and know the people you're playing with.
I think you're cheating. Now, that's a strong word, so let me explain myself. No group of adventurers in the world would let this guy join them, and rely upon him for 24/7 travel, saving lives and in general harmonious life.
You of course know that, but are relying upon the "It's a game so we have to let him play" unspoken rule".
This is taking unfair advantage of that unspoken rule, which could be considered cheating.
No one could possibly live with this guy day after day, in the field, with only 3 other people to talk to. He'd be dumped or killed in his sleep within a day or so.
And, it's a little unfair to your fellow players to play such a jerk. By forcing yourself upon them, you're kinda being a jerk.
I think you're making some fairly large leaps by calling the player or a jerk or that he's forcing himself on the party when you don't know anything about the other characters, the party dynamic in general or even what kind of campaign he's playing in.
What makes you think he's going to join a "harmonious" party? This character would be a good fit for Way of the Wicked, for instance.
I think you're cheating. Now, that's a strong word, so let me explain myself. No group of adventurers in the world would let this guy join them, and rely upon him for 24/7 travel, saving lives and in general harmonious life.
You of course know that, but are relying upon the "It's a game so we have to let him play" unspoken rule".
This is taking unfair advantage of that unspoken rule, which could be considered cheating.
No one could possibly live with this guy day after day, in the field, with only 3 other people to talk to. He'd be dumped or killed in his sleep within a day or so.
And, it's a little unfair to your fellow players to play such a jerk. By forcing yourself upon them, you're kinda being a jerk.
I think you're making some fairly large leaps by calling the player or a jerk or that he's forcing himself on the party when you don't know anything about the other characters, the party dynamic in general or even what kind of campaign he's playing in.
What makes you think he's going to join a "harmonious" party? This character would be a good fit for Way of the Wicked, for instance.
Ok, you make a point. But no, it wouldn't make a "good fit" for a Evil campaign, as even Evil needs to get along with each other and not result in PKing.
A jerk teammate? My goodness, that party cannot possibly succeed. I challenge you guys to name one instance of a jerk teammate being able to function in a group in film, TV or literature.
Ok, you make a point. But no, it wouldn't make a "good fit" for a Evil campaign, as even Evil needs to get along with each other and not result in PKing.
Evil parties doesn't necessarily need to get along. What they need is motivation: Typically something they fear or hate more than each other, or something they desire more than the death of one another.
Secondly, if the character in question is a sufficiently valuable resource you'd likely work out a solution where his character traits don't badger you (CALL ME A PEASANT AGAIN AND YOU'LL BE TRYING TO PICK UP YOUR TEETH WITH TWO BROKEN ARMS) or learn to ignore his less attractive personality traits rather than just kill him - especially if it's a lawful evil party.
In this particular area I speak from experience - I have an incredibly obnoxious (but highly skilled) coworker. After an initial period of 'turbulence', we've learned to work together with a minimum of friction. I do still occasionally fantasize about throttling him, though.
That said, I think Dazz's post contains a lot of good advice - it's fine to play a character with a distinct personality, just make sure that personality doesn't get in the way of everyone having fun. Self-censoring is frequently a good thing.
Two ways to go relatively high charisma 12or14 but absolutely no social skills or low charisma 7or8 and a few ranks in diplomacy but more in bluff. This is the typical looks good until you talk to them type we meet a lot in life but is hard to model with game stats.
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I think you're cheating. Now, that's a strong word, so let me explain myself. No group of adventurers in the world would let this guy join them, and rely upon him for 24/7 travel, saving lives and in general harmonious life.
You of course know that, but are relying upon the "It's a game so we have to let him play" unspoken rule".
This is taking unfair advantage of that unspoken rule, which could be considered cheating.
No one could possibly live with this guy day after day, in the field, with only 3 other people to talk to. He'd be dumped or killed in his sleep within a day or so.
In fairness, based on a previous thread by the OP, I believe this is a PFS character. And PFS is game with the premise that the characters work for an organization where people are assigned to work together on a per mission basis, and Paladins can wind up assigned to work with (non-Evil) worshipers of Demon Lords, and all sorts of other similar weirdness. So...this character doesn't seem to be cheating or beyond the pall in this context.
In a conventional group, you'd have a distinct point barring some other justification, though
And, it's a little unfair to your fellow players to play such a jerk. By forcing yourself upon them, you could be considered kinda being a jerk.
Here, I just disagree. The character and player are separate and the character being a jerk can actually be quite a bit of fun if played properly as long as the player is, in fact, not a jerk.
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In terms of the actual question: I'd give a character like that poor Charisma, and good social skills (and maybe the student of Philosophy Trait as mentioned earlier). But a Charisma anywhere from 7 to 14 seems appropriate, depending on the route you want to take.
There's no rule on how to role play certain stats. Role play them however you want, just enjoy it.
This.
The mental stats are pure abstractions, an attempt to quantify the unquantifiable. Literally any number can work for any character.