Rakshaka |
Without arcane sight and detect magic as aids, I'm gonna say no.
Situation is this: PCs pre-buff before attacking a vampire lair. All have Death Ward up. During the fight, they enter an Unahllowed area with a Dispel Magic attached to it that targets non-believers of Urgathoa, hitting a couple Death Wards. Later, a vampire actively dispels one of the PCs and succeeds in taking out her highest spell, which is Death Ward. Without being interacted with by a negative energy effect or getting hit again by a vampire, is there any way the PCs know that Death Ward is down?
As a side note, do DMs typically announce which spell/spells they've taken out with a Dispel or do they wait until an interaction occurs that the absence of presence of the spell shows. (like taking fire damage after Resist Energy: Fire is dispelled)
Rakshaka |
Perhaps, but on an in-game level, it definitely affects what actions a character takes based on their knowledge of the situation. A Paladin with Death Ward up won't think twice about charging the head vampire, possibly taking Attacks of Opportunity that would normally inflict level drain from the dozens of spawn around him. Without this spell, his tactics change significantly, probably trying to bottle-knock and isolate the numerous spawn before engaging the leader, fighting defensively to avoid the dangerous level-drain.
zieretole |
If its a spell effect that only occurs when something else happens to trigger it, I would agree with no, the characters wouldn't know it was dispelled. Now, something like Bull's Strength, the characters would likely recognize immediately when it when went away, since its a constant effect that they would be able to feel.
Whether the GM tells the players or not, depends on the group. Some GMs do their best to prevent meta-gaming, and therefore wouldn't even say that Dispel was cast, unless someone made the spellcraft check. Other GMs might trust their players not to meta-game, and will go ahead and tell them when it happens, just for the sake of speeding up the process later on (otherwise it means having to tell the player to re-do the math they likely already did, then explaining to them how X turns ago Dispel was cast on X spell effect).
Quintain |
Spellcraft would allow for the ability to know whether a spell effect that is on your person is no longer there.
However, given that spellcraft requires the use of detect magic and or identify to determine the properties of magic items, you may require the use of those in order to determine active spells if there are no other visual effects that are noticeable.
Rakshaka |
So, statistic buffs, or in fact, most Transmutation effects as a whole have visible or noticeable effects that can be deduced as to having been dispelled if such a thing occurs.
I guess what I'm mainly concerned with then are Abjuration effects like Protection from Evil, Resist Energy, Death Ward, and See Invisibility, stuff without any real visible effect until is interacted with. Do PCs sense the magic of such spells affecting them or is it more of a passive thing that's just 'there'? The four spells listed above are limited examples, a lot of buffs I can think of (almost all Transmutation, but stuff like Mage Armor, Shield, Good Hope, and many others) have visible effects.
Drock11 |
The way I mostly do it is unless the spell is designed to not be noticed, and even then only if the spell isn't resisted, people can usually sense the spell interacting with their own personal aura. They would be able to tell when buffs and protections went away.
That's just the way I do it to simplify things. It also has the benefit of explaining why some spells that don't have any obvious observable effects can still be detected by those you cast them on if the spell fails like charm person.
Claxon |
Because dispel magic doesn't necessarily target or affect a specific spell on a person (you check against all spells on the person) they can't know which spell is dispelled even if the successfully identify that dispel magic was cast on them. Without some specific indicator (like losing strength if Bull's Strength is dispelled) you wouldn't know if you had lost Death Ward. I don't personally believe there is a specific indicator for Death Ward, so you would not be able to notice the loss of Death Ward. Without some sort of examination of the individual using magic you couldn't know for certain whether or not the dispel had dispelled Death Ward.
However, if someone did identify the Dispel Magic as it was cast, then they might have cause to suspect that they may have lost some of their magical protections. Which might give them cause to fight defensively, whether or not they actually need to.
blahpers |
If it's a targeted spell or a dismissible (D) effect, I allow the caster to know. It only makes sense, especially since casters know when targets succeed at their saving throw for a targeted spell, and what good is the ability to dismiss a spell if you can't tell whether it's there in the first place?
Barring that, case-by-case.
Edit: As for the subject of the spell, case-by-case. Some spells are pretty obvious, like mage armor. Some are not.
Lincoln Hills |
No opinion here - well, not one based on rules-as-written - just a bit of helpful advice to players. If the GM rules that neither the subject nor the caster of a spell automatically knows when that spell stops working, arcane sight - perhaps even the expensive permanency on arcane sight - is suddenly a much more valuable spell.
Claxon |
No opinion here - well, not one based on rules-as-written - just a bit of helpful advice to players. If the GM rules that neither the subject nor the caster of a spell automatically knows when that spell stops working, arcane sight - perhaps even the expensive permanency on arcane sight - is suddenly a much more valuable spell.
As it should be.
maouse |
I could swear that all spells have visible components unless they otherwise say so... isn't that in the rules (for held charges) or something? Page 209 states abjuration (protective spells) get a -4 perception modifier after 24 hours... which would presume that you get an un-modded perception check to see them before then...
Likewise Evocation states that you use "unseen power" ... so no perception there... basically it depends on the magic used.
In the case of Death Ward - it gives a MORAL BONUS... so yeh, you know when you start to feel like crap again... don't you?
Claxon |
Well, Death Ward doesn't give a MORAL bonus, it gains a morale bonus. But the bonus is against Death Spells and Magical Death effects. As to whether this is something that would be noticed by you (as a character), that would be the purview of your GM. In my opinion, no.
And no place in the rules does that spells have visible components. That's not a thing. I believe James Jacobs has stated that when casting spells that there would be obvious physical manifestations of magical energy. But that has nothing to do with what happens after the spell is cast or what the effect looks like, or if it has visible manifestations at all. That will likely depend on the spell and its effect.
Hendelbolaf |
It is not covered in the rules, so like Blaphers said, it is up to the DM.
I would personally rule like the succeeding on a saving throw entry, "a creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack."
There is a tingle that lets you know something occurred even if you do not know what it is.
Also, as has been mentioned the vampire or enemy should not be aware of the fact that the Death Ward has been dispelled, either by the Unhallowed effect or his own spell. So would a vampire attack a paladin that may still have Death Ward on him? Maybe no more than a paladin would still charge into a swarm of spawn to get the master. For that matter how does the vampire even know they have Death Ward up or has he attacked them fruitlessly or is he just guessing?
In the end it is easier if everyone just knows the effect is still active or has been dispelled. Let the game move on and not get bogged down in rules issues...