Animate Dead, Lesser Animate Dead, and Skeleton Crew all come in a (spell) level later for wizards than they do for clerics. Is this just a holdover from early editions of DnD? Or is there an actual balance reason?
It also seems to conflict with the Create Undead and the Create Greater Undead being the same levels.
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I think it's thematic. Undead are affiliated with negative energy, which clerics can channel. Most campaign settings have a God of Death or of Undeath, there's a Death domain, you use Knowledge: Religion to know the weaknesses of undead, etc.
The idea is that tampering with the forces of life and death is a lot easier when you actually get a deity's permission first.
Fair enough.
TBH it just rustles my jimmies because I want my 5th level wizard to be able to create some bloody skeletons.
I think it's thematic. Undead are affiliated with negative energy, which clerics can channel. Most campaign settings have a God of Death or of Undeath, there's a Death domain, you use Knowledge: Religion to know the weaknesses of undead, etc.
The idea is that tampering with the forces of life and death is a lot easier when you actually get a deity's permission first.
So, yes, a holdover.
Animate Dead, Lesser Animate Dead, and Skeleton Crew all come in a (spell) level later for wizards than they do for clerics. Is this just a holdover from early editions of DnD? Or is there an actual balance reason?
Yes; no.
House rule it, friend!
Wizards can tamper in gods domain, but the clerics live there.
House rule it, friend!
sadly not the DM
Divine magic does certain things better than arcane. Wizards generaly do control and area dmg better clerics buff and have easier access to animate dead.
Some domains touch arcane areas in limited ways but its all predictable. You know the high priest of the fire god probsbly has fireball for example so it hardly crimps the wizatds stule.
Its all deliberate game design.
I think it's thematic. Undead are affiliated with negative energy, which clerics can channel. Most campaign settings have a God of Death or of Undeath, there's a Death domain, you use Knowledge: Religion to know the weaknesses of undead, etc.
The idea is that tampering with the forces of life and death is a lot easier when you actually get a deity's permission first.
Or when you can get a god to do the math for you. Basically, clerics are all part of a class that cheats on its homework and tests by looking at a god's answers.
Back to the main point, any way you could negotiate with the GM to get an ability from the variant tiefling ability table? If I remember right, the very first ability on that table is animating a single 1 hd skeleton per day. Rather nice early on, but it gets lost entirely once you get the actual spell, since I am fairly sure it works off of the same hd pool as the real spell, and it will only ever summon 1 hd skeletons.
Still, it is rather nice thematically (you have a rather legitimate reason for studying how to animate undead the proper way, since you have so much amateur experience) and it gives you something to actually contribute during those early levels where you have only a couple spells per day. I personally always like it when you can jump right into your main character concept, rather than having to wait a few levels. Fun early on, and it has some small RP value since it gives you an option if you ever get captured and lose your spell book (since this is an SLA, it lacks verbal, somatic, and material components; you could easily just move your bound hands onto a corpse, even an animals, left in an actual dungeon and see what you could pull off)
This is why Dread Necromancer is a popular class if you want to meddle in undeath from an arcane angle.
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I've always resented this. Literary necromancers are often not priests, much more like arcane casters. It's annoying that PF makes it so hard to build a decent arcane lord of the undead.
It's not that hard to make a decent arcane lord of the undead.
Actually wizards can control an unlimited amount of undead.
They can make simulacrums of themselves and have those cast Animate Dead. Via your simulacrum you control their undead too.
Any level 14 wizard with money could do this.
Its all deliberate game design.
Eh, that's a shaky assumption.
Did someone intentionally write down, or at least copy-paste PF's spell levels? Yes.
Did anyone ever sit down and think "Does it really serve everyone's campaign to make X spell more accessible to Y class for ambiguous reasons?" Doubtful. Gygax or Arneson likely wrote some s~!@ down they though'd be fun for their campaign, and nobody's thought it important enough to change since then. (And that's an accurate paraphrase of one of Gygax's own crew from back in the day.)
@Marthkus the Simulacrum spell does not specifically state that a Similacrum of yourself gains your own spellcasting abilities or that they are capable of controlling undead, and that you are furthermore then allowed to treat those undead like you yourself controlled them; you are making a lot of assumptions on how a DM would adjudicate that set of interactions which are not inherent to the rules as written due to Simulacrum being incredibly vague.
@DualJay-- the same reason Druids get Flamestrike a level later than Clerics and don't get a 2nd level Cure spell on their list (instead getting Cure Moderate at 3rd)-- some classes can cast the same spells but sooner or later due to how powerful they are at that type of magic.
True Seeing gets three different levels-- 5 for Clerics, 6 for Sorc/Wizard, 7 for Druid.
Meanwhile Wizards get Scrying at 4th level while Clerics get it at 5 because presumably Wizards are better at that, while Clerics are better at Undead.
After you ask your GM and he says "but that's not what's in the rules", say "House rule it, friend!"House rule it, friend!sadly not the DM
While slipping him a twenty. ;)
@Marthkus the Simulacrum spell does not specifically state that a Similacrum of yourself gains your own spellcasting abilities or that they are capable of controlling undead, and that you are furthermore then allowed to treat those undead like you yourself controlled them; you are making a lot of assumptions on how a DM would adjudicate that set of interactions which are not inherent to the rules as written due to Simulacrum being incredibly vague.
Actually adjudicating simulacrum with class levels is fairly straightforward. A simulacrum has half the class levels of the original, with appropriate abilities. So a 14th level wizard creates simulacrums of himself, but the copies are merely 7th level wizards (still capable of casting animate dead).
The part where the rules check out is in the task of providing any guidance as to what is appropriate for a half HD monster simulacrum with regard to supernatural powers, spell-like abilities, etc.
It seems like a poor way to go about becoming an undead lord, though, because simulacrums are fragile and simulacrums which control your undead armies combine that fragility with painting a giant bullseye on themselves to your enemies.
If you want to play a lower level arcane necromancer, your best bet is to get a couple Divine scrolls of Animate Dead and use them with UMD whne you want to renew your horde. It's more expensive, but you'll only need to do it until 7th level.
@Marthkus the Simulacrum spell does not specifically state that a Similacrum of yourself gains your own spellcasting abilities or that they are capable of controlling undead, and that you are furthermore then allowed to treat those undead like you yourself controlled them; you are making a lot of assumptions on how a DM would adjudicate that set of interactions which are not inherent to the rules as written due to Simulacrum being incredibly vague.Actually adjudicating simulacrum with class levels is fairly straightforward. A simulacrum has half the class levels of the original, with appropriate abilities. So a 14th level wizard creates simulacrums of himself, but the copies are merely 7th level wizards (still capable of casting animate dead).
The part where the rules check out is in the task of providing any guidance as to what is appropriate for a half HD monster simulacrum with regard to supernatural powers, spell-like abilities, etc.
It seems like a poor way to go about becoming an undead lord, though, because simulacrums are fragile and simulacrums which control your undead armies combine that fragility with painting a giant bullseye on themselves to your enemies.
Sure, to decide what level spells they have to cast. . . but now how does the chain of instructions for your undead work?
You have to tell your simulacrum to tell its undead to do something?
That's like saying that 14th level Wizard can expand his undead by having leadership and a 12th level Cleric companion to be the ultimate necromancer . . .
@Marthkus the Simulacrum spell does not specifically state that a Similacrum of yourself gains your own spellcasting abilities or that they are capable of controlling undead, and that you are furthermore then allowed to treat those undead like you yourself controlled them; you are making a lot of assumptions on how a DM would adjudicate that set of interactions which are not inherent to the rules as written due to Simulacrum being incredibly vague.Actually adjudicating simulacrum with class levels is fairly straightforward. A simulacrum has half the class levels of the original, with appropriate abilities. So a 14th level wizard creates simulacrums of himself, but the copies are merely 7th level wizards (still capable of casting animate dead).
The part where the rules check out is in the task of providing any guidance as to what is appropriate for a half HD monster simulacrum with regard to supernatural powers, spell-like abilities, etc.
It seems like a poor way to go about becoming an undead lord, though, because simulacrums are fragile and simulacrums which control your undead armies combine that fragility with painting a giant bullseye on themselves to your enemies.
Really depends on how limited you think the Animate Dead's spell control is.
Actually wizards can control an unlimited amount of undead.
They can make simulacrums of themselves and have those cast Animate Dead. Via your simulacrum you control their undead too.
Any level 14 wizard with money could do this.
Hey, isn't that clone 44298 next to the paladin comming at us?
*sigh* yes, kids. You grow them in a vat, you titrate the mixture, you try to show them the finer points of necromancy, and some paladin comes along with a dc 40 diplomacy check and BAM, he's on the wrong path...
Actually wizards can control an unlimited amount of undead.
They can make simulacrums of themselves and have those cast Animate Dead. Via your simulacrum you control their undead too.
Any level 14 wizard with money could do this.
Hey, isn't that clone 44298 next to the paladin comming at us?
*sigh* yes, kids. You grow them in a vat, you titrate the mixture, you try to show them the finer points of necromancy, and some paladin comes along with a dc 40 diplomacy check and BAM, he's on the wrong path...
"At all times, the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner."
I think a feint rogue with bluff and disguise would work better.
If you want to play a lower level arcane necromancer, your best bet is to get a couple Divine scrolls of Animate Dead and use them with UMD whne you want to renew your horde. It's more expensive, but you'll only need to do it until 7th level.
Currently I'm just sticking to using lesser animate dead + false focus for a bunch of free skeletons.
Actually wizards can control an unlimited amount of undead.
They can make simulacrums of themselves and have those cast Animate Dead. Via your simulacrum you control their undead too.
Any level 14 wizard with money could do this.
Hey, isn't that clone 44298 next to the paladin comming at us?
*sigh* yes, kids. You grow them in a vat, you titrate the mixture, you try to show them the finer points of necromancy, and some paladin comes along with a dc 40 diplomacy check and BAM, he's on the wrong path...
"At all times, the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner."
I think a feint rogue with bluff and disguise would work better.
"This spell turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies that obey your spoken commands.
The undead can be made to follow you, or they can be made to remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place."
Your undead can follow YOU or stay in a spot and attack everything that comes in, or a specific creature type.
They can't follow someone else, they respond to spoken commands. . . so Simulacrum has to respond to your spoken command to then give the undead following him a spoken command to then have them do it. . .
Its a shady chain of command custody at best.
Actually wizards can control an unlimited amount of undead.
They can make simulacrums of themselves and have those cast Animate Dead. Via your simulacrum you control their undead too.
Any level 14 wizard with money could do this.
Hey, isn't that clone 44298 next to the paladin comming at us?
*sigh* yes, kids. You grow them in a vat, you titrate the mixture, you try to show them the finer points of necromancy, and some paladin comes along with a dc 40 diplomacy check and BAM, he's on the wrong path...
"At all times, the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner."
I think a feint rogue with bluff and disguise would work better.
"This spell turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies that obey your spoken commands.
The undead can be made to follow you, or they can be made to remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place."
Your undead can follow YOU or stay in a spot and attack everything that comes in, or a specific creature type.
They can't follow someone else, they respond to spoken commands. . . so Simulacrum has to respond to your spoken command to then give the undead following him a spoken command to then have them do it. . .
Its a shady chain of command custody at best.
Not really.
Your tactics are simple, but so are most necromantic lords.
Say you are 14. Your snow cones are 7, that's 28 HD of undead. Employ mass combat rules and you are golden.
If your DM lets you use mass combat rules. . .
Yes, if you DM is empowering you, you're golden, but it requires them to buy into you being able to do it.
If your DM lets you use mass combat rules. . .
Yes, if you DM is empowering you, you're golden, but it requires them to buy into you being able to do it.
Oh my gods you're being particular about this when it's pretty dang clear.
"Me1, Me2, and Me3, take your squads and charge the front gate. Me4, Me5, and Me6, take your squads through their aqueduct and divide their attention."
Its a shady chain of command custody at best.
Sounds like most chains of command. Boss tells his department heads what he needs them to do. Department heads tell their teams what to do.
Why should the Boss have to deal with the individual team members for? That's what middlemen are for while he's busy turning into a dragon and bombarding the keep.
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An important note, but the snowman brigade might have a lower check then you do when it comes to opposing orders. In addition to being really expensive (and requiring easy access to huge amounts of snow), this is a more glaring weakness then 'heroes will single them out.'
A negative channeler might be able to wrench control away from him, with the added beauty of you need to be really damn specific what orders your simulacra are giving at all times.
Arcane Necromancers don't have a happy time when clerics with command or turn undead show up, especially as they can't reverse channel to reassert control, all they get is their charisma bonus floating along behind them, trying to get them to stick to their orders (and the commander/turner might just figure ways /around/ your orders).
Also, having to shout direction at your bloody skeletons over the stentorian cleric (who probably didn't dump charisma as it helps his channeling/commanding/turning) in a tumult screws over your attempts to stay hidden with the cloak spells available at say, 7th level.
This is rough, especially for a dude who costs about 2,900gp and still only has 29hp (I'm just taking like a rough average of 7d6, I didn't even put con in there, or it gets more expensive).
It gets worse when you realize an arcane necromancer can't do jack about a turner. His undead just skeddadle if /they/ fail a will save against the cleric. One channel usage and that first level acolyte just sent a lot of your zombies packing.
Mr. Snow could go around bolstering them if he has the Undead sub-school, but a +2 turn resistance isn't too spectacularly beefy against turners /or/ commanders, since its still the undead creature's will save that gets targeted first and then turns into a 1d20+charisma mod knife fight.
And you don't want an undead with a too high will save. He probably has intelligence. And he probably wants to chow down on you and your blood flavored slushie brigade.
Divines are just straight up better at the undead thing. Its kind of their hat though.
That's why if you're an arcane caster, you turn yourself into a vampire and start turning clerics. Muahahaha.
his is rough, especially for a dude who costs about 2,900gp and still only has 29hp (I'm just taking like a rough average of 7d6, I didn't even put con in there, or it gets more expensive).
Con would not rise the price. Snowmen cost per HD.
One way to kill a turner is to just throw more undead at them. Eventually they will run out of turn/rebuke attempts or reach their max.
Obviously not the most cost effective strategy, but it will get the job done.
If you want to save money, Lord of the snowmen should port in and handle the turner. The snowmen exist to relay orders, not actually fight.
After you ask your GM and he says "but that's not what's in the rules", say "House rule it, friend!"House rule it, friend!sadly not the DM
No thanks, I'll pass. Waiting until 7 isn't going to kill him, especially when he gets all these skeletons for free.
Its all deliberate game design.Eh, that's a shaky assumption.
Did someone intentionally write down, or at least copy-paste PF's spell levels? Yes.
Did anyone ever sit down and think "Does it really serve everyone's campaign to make X spell more accessible to Y class for ambiguous reasons?" Doubtful. Gygax or Arneson likely wrote some s&&$ down they though'd be fun for their campaign, and nobody's thought it important enough to change since then. (And that's an accurate paraphrase of one of Gygax's own crew from back in the day.)
You have it correct in that its a legacy Issue but its one of the things that defined the few differences between divine and arcane magic.
As a general rule divine magic heals better and it buffs better. Arcane magic gets area control and damage easier. As the game has evolved there has been a lot of bleed over beteeen the two areas of magic but it is still mostly true.
The big thing is with divine magic is its easy to get limited exceptions to the ruled for theme. Eg. Fire domsin cleric or oracle of fire.
For the most part though even more recent add ons like the witch follow all the game design above. They get healing later than their divine counter parts and when they are given wizard spells through patron its always at the given wizard levels.
The wuestion is why no exceptions for specific theme wizards? I think partisly because the archetype system needs class features to work with. To be honest an archetype of the school specialization system that worked similar to cleric domains would somve the issues.