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Very high mobility (martials should leave their species movement speed behind around level 5 and continue to exceed it) both in terms of ground covered and being able to flexibly use it in combat (Moving between attacks in a full attack pattern, potentially multiples times, possibly a significant distance)
Might-Against-Magic (The ability to Parry spells of the touch and ranged touch attack varieties, the ability to carve a hole into area spells, the ability to shake off mind or body affecting magic beyond the baseline saving throw roulette)
Immense Raw Power (Cleaving a hole in a plateau or punching holes in castle walls)
Incredible Feats of Skill (High Skill Ranks should provide things like running on walls/water/air, becoming invisible, slipping through crevices significantly smaller than the Escape Artist.....)
Most of that is already available via magic items.
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Most of that is already available via magic items.
Very high mobility (martials should leave their species movement speed behind around level 5 and continue to exceed it) both in terms of ground covered and being able to flexibly use it in combat (Moving between attacks in a full attack pattern, potentially multiples times, possibly a significant distance)
Might-Against-Magic (The ability to Parry spells of the touch and ranged touch attack varieties, the ability to carve a hole into area spells, the ability to shake off mind or body affecting magic beyond the baseline saving throw roulette)
Immense Raw Power (Cleaving a hole in a plateau or punching holes in castle walls)
Incredible Feats of Skill (High Skill Ranks should provide things like running on walls/water/air, becoming invisible, slipping through crevices significantly smaller than the Escape Artist.....)
There's a magic that gives you pounce? AWw man!
Wait, no there's not. There's nothing that fixes the way martials are supposed to full attack. Magic items are also available to everyone, not just martials. They don't actually fix the classes. They actually make things worse, because then your not even a powerful martial, your a guy who depends on magic items. Your not special because a commoner has access to just as much as you.
This isn't about system mastery, this is about the classes. Most of your 'fixes' use things outside of the class, which if anything, is a sign of a problem!
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I'd rather Fighters played like actual heroes from literature, like Cu Chulainn, actually cleave a mountain. If you asked a 1st and a 20th level Fighter a solution to their problem, they'd give the same answer. Try the same with most other classes, you'll get some different responses.
So in other words, you want magic in your fighters... that's how you define epic and it's a fair definition. Some of us however don't think you make a fighter epic by turning him into a wizard. So is Conan not epic at all for you then? He doesn't cleave any mountains, but he does put down a demigod or two in his time, and seize a kingdom for himself.
What makes a fighter epic at high levels are the goals he shoots for and attains. And the tricks that would have been far beyond him in the beginning of his career.
The argument here isn't that fighters should be able to magically cleave mountains apart, magically jump between planets, magically destroy magical defenses, etc. The argument is that fighters should be able to jump between planets, cleave mountains in half, and destroy magical defenses because they have become incredibly powerful 20th level juggernauts with extraordinary physical prowess. As it is, the only way to get theses abilities beyond being something like Mythic is to use magic. IMO, there should be extraordinary abilities in the core that are actually Ex. abilities and not Su., Sp., magic items, or spells.
Then you're not playing a fighter, because all he can do is yell at people and punch them.
If its the same gig as usual, you fix skill points with race and magic items and UMD! That fixes everything! Nothing wrong with the class, because you can fix it by using UMD.
Wait, you had to fix it... that's... got to mean something. Right?
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This isn't casting some mumbo jumbo and the mountain splits apart. This is using your sword on the mountain the same way I use an axe to split a block of firewood. By dealing enough raw physical damage to cleave it in half, either with a sharp slice or by applying sufficient blunt trauma to force it to fracture apart at the weak points.
Going to strict rules interpretations, your standard 500 DPR barbarian with an admantine weapon can chop his way through a mountain fairly quickly.
This isn't casting some mumbo jumbo and the mountain splits apart. This is using your sword on the mountain the same way I use an axe to split a block of firewood. By dealing enough raw physical damage to cleave it in half, either with a sharp slice or by applying sufficient blunt trauma to force it to fracture apart at the weak points.Going to strict rules interpretations, your standard 500 DPR barbarian with an admantine weapon can chop his way through a mountain fairly quickly.
Not really, that's a ballton of thickness and not actually related to his class.
ATTACK MOAR! is the problem, not the solution.
Its also again, related to your magic items. Adamantine weapons. Not his actual martial prowess.
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What I find odd is that a high level fighter can solo dragons but can't leap 3 feat off the ground.
I'd like to see the fighter passively get a fitness check for things like climb, swim, and jumping as strength based checks.
I could see the mechanic used to make checks to temporarily increase their movement speed too.
I also don't think there would be anything wrong with adding rules to as to how mighty blows interact with the environment. Like a fighter who strikes the ground at high level should probably leave a creator.
Something else to expand options would be more interesting gear.
What has to be carefully done is making sure none of this actually makes the classes "stronger" just increases their options (which would make them stronger).
A full attack is a very powerful thing in PF. Equivalent to 9th level spells in terms of destructive power. Giving martials more options less than full attack wouldn't be an awful introduction.
A full attack is a very powerful thing in PF. Equivalent to 9th level spells in terms of destructive power. Giving martials more options less than full attack wouldn't be an awful introduction.
A full attack is also against one object, while a caster learned to create what, 500 foot of shaped creation itself at 13th?
Full attack isn't just a powerful thing for martials, its the only thing for martials!(not actually a fan of dpr builds myself, I'd actually prefer lower DPR, no save or dies, and a variety of options for everyone including having the option to just attack, but personal opinion is an opinion).
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Its also again, related to your magic items. Adamantine weapons. Not his actual martial prowess.
You can use an unenchanted weapon if you so choose. Nothing inherently magical about admantine.
A full attack is also against one object, while a caster learned to create what, 500 foot of shaped creation itself at 13th?
Given the number of spells the caster has access to per day vs the number of full attacks a martial can make per day, the martial will carve a hole through the mountain before a caster.
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There's more to the game than killing though. You have to reach a foe to full attack after all, and that infers quiet a bit! You have to survive, surpass challenges, maybe socialize, get through traps maybe, scale a wall, travel far and wide, become the very best, train them in your cause, etc.All classes are capable of all of those, unless the player chooses to neglect them.
How can a Fighter do all of these things?
Survive: Unless it's a Fort Save...no.
Surpass Challenges: If it doesn't involve stabbing it, not happening. MAYBE using engineering, but that's a stretch.
Socialize: HA!
Get through traps: See "surpassing challenges."
Scale a wall: They can do this, but slow as hell.
Travel far and wide: They can swim too...so yeah...
Show me a Fighter who uses abilities intrinsic to the Fighter Class (so no trait band aids or magic item bandaids) who can pull off HALF that stuff. I really doubt you can since the Fighters only class features are feats and "hit stuff gooder." Since all classes can accomplish these by your own admission, this shouldn't be difficult at all.
Its also again, related to your magic items. Adamantine weapons. Not his actual martial prowess.
1. Adamantine is not always a magic weapon
2. Gear is a completely valid source of narrative power provided it's use is unique to some classes. For example, no wizard would be trying to do feat with the sword.
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Its also again, related to your magic items. Adamantine weapons. Not his actual martial prowess.You can use an unenchanted weapon if you so choose. Nothing inherently magical about admantine.
Point.
Head.
Its not the guy and his martial prowess, its the fantastic material he's wielding to ignore the hardness of the object he's attacking. Nothing to do with his actual skill. Given enough time a commoner will eventually carve his way through with an adamantine dagger, albeit a bit slower.
Its also again, related to your magic items. Adamantine weapons. Not his actual martial prowess.1. Adamantine is not always a magic weapon
2. Gear is a completely valid source of narrative power provided it's use is unique to some classes. For example, no wizard would be trying to do feat with the sword.
I actually agree with both of those, but the thing is I think gear should never be used in defense of a playstyle or class because its not inherent with the class. Obviously I expect people to use a weapon, but using a piece of gear that's great for that exact purpose that anyone can use isn't really telling about the class itself, though some might use it better than others.
Its also again, related to your magic items. Adamantine weapons. Not his actual martial prowess.You can use an unenchanted weapon if you so choose. Nothing inherently magical about admantine.
Point.
Head.
Its not the guy and his martial prowess, its the fantastic material he's wielding to ignore the hardness of the object he's attacking. Nothing to do with his actual skill. Given enough time a commoner will eventually carve his way through with an adamantine dagger, albeit a bit slower.
Being able to do something faster is important.
By the same logic a martial could dig a trench slower than a caster using move earth, therefore that spell doesn't make the caster cooler.
Show me a Fighter who uses abilities intrinsic to the Fighter Class (so no trait band aids or magic item bandaids) who can pull off HALF that stuff.
This annoys me. If I made a class that as a feature received infinite gold, by your logic the class couldn't do anything and is worthless.
A class providing a character with extra resources in one area so that they can invest in another is part of the overall class balance and design.
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What a unique thread, and not one that has half a dozen similarly hot button issue threads on the front page.
But, since you asked: they do. The damage output and single target debuffing capabilities of a high level fighter, as well as the versatility in weapons Weapon Training gives, is very impressive, and can cause lots of issues in actual games.
There's just a meme going around, still left over from 3.5 despite being thoroughly false in PF, that martials are weak. Actual play rarely shows this to be the case.
I made an argument in another thread that the Fighter isn't weak, he's incomplete, and it's something I'll stand by.
I think there's two major contributing factors to this:
1) The point I made about the Fighter being incomplete. I, personally, will not dispute the fact that the Fighter is pretty much the big cheese during the first 5 levels of play, nor that he can, under the right circumstances, maintain point as king of DPR throughout most of the life of play. These are generally true things. However, the difference between a Fighter and most of the other full BAB martials when it comes to dealing damage is actually pretty slim. Yes, he's better, but often not so much better that it's going to make a functional difference in play. If a Fighter caps out at 150 damage when a Barb is only doing 135, and the monsters only have 120 hp.... It doesn't matter. The math I've seen put together kind of supports this.
So the Fighter is the best at doing something that other guys are good at as well, but they all have huge toolboxes of other things they can do, like cleaving spell effects in half with their swords, tracking an enemy through atrocious conditions while simultaneously providing food and water for the group, or shmoozing with the powers of the land to build some political clout. There's an imbalance between the Fighter and other classes as far as performance. Almost every class in the game is well-rounded and multi-faceted. The Fighter is stunningly one-dimensional and just doesn't get as much as the other classes.
2) Skills don't scale well. It's been noted by some that many spells can completely supplant the function of most skills, while adding something else to the mix besides. Invisibility gives you a +20 to stealth checks, and turns you invisible to boot. Spider Climb gives you an actual climb speed, a +8 to climb checks, and removes the need to make most of the most common checks.
I want better stuff from skills. 6 ranks in a trained skill has you performing at the level of the best olympic athletes in the real world. At 20 ranks, nothing has actually changed in what you can do, you can just do it under more adverse conditions. Why is that? At 20th level I'm not saying a Fighter should have magic, but his strength and skill should allow him to leap across the battlefield like John Carter, or dash up a cliff-face to strike out at a group of enemy archers. These feats aren't magical and they don't strain belief; what strains belief is that a character who's so far beyond his earlier self in terms of the sheer numbers supporting his actions still being bound by the same limitations. If it were possible for the Olympic athlete I mentioned earlier to push his body to the point where we was literally 3 times as strong and agile, don't you think that would have equivalent correspondence in his capabilities? Don't you think we'd be seeing new records for the high jump and the long jump, or rock climbers capable of hurling themselves 5 and 10 feet upwards with each pull of their arms? We don't see it now because human bodies aren't capable of that kind of strength, endurance, and skill. But characters in Pathfinder do, numerically, have that capability but are bound by the same restrictions that held them when they were just mere mortals like the rest of us. That's what I don't like.
The fighter is over specialized. Those extra 5 feats he gets cost exponentially more than the first 5.
All his over abilities cost more too sense they are in the same sphere.
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There's more to the game than killing though. You have to reach a foe to full attack after all, and that infers quiet a bit! You have to survive, surpass challenges, maybe socialize, get through traps maybe, scale a wall, travel far and wide, become the very best, train them in your cause, etc.All classes are capable of all of those, unless the player chooses to neglect them.How can a Fighter do all of these things?
Survive: Unless it's a Fort Save...no.
Surpass Challenges: If it doesn't involve stabbing it, not happening. MAYBE using engineering, but that's a stretch.
Socialize: HA!
Get through traps: See "surpassing challenges."
Scale a wall: They can do this, but slow as hell.
Travel far and wide: They can swim too...so yeah...
Show me a Fighter who uses abilities intrinsic to the Fighter Class (so no trait band aids or magic item bandaids) who can pull off HALF that stuff. I really doubt you can since the Fighters only class features are feats and "hit stuff gooder." Since all classes can accomplish these by your own admission, this shouldn't be difficult at all.
I will use all the tools provided to my by RAW. If you choose not to use those tools, the problem is with you, not the game system.
Has good saves vs. everything, travels the planes using items she crafted: Cyrhraul Dig
Diverse Skills, broad access to magic: Celebrian Elanesse
Diverse Skills, battlefield control, access to magic: Alexander Mayweather
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What a unique thread, and not one that has half a dozen similarly hot button issue threads on the front page.
But, since you asked: they do. The damage output and single target debuffing capabilities of a high level fighter, as well as the versatility in weapons Weapon Training gives, is very impressive, and can cause lots of issues in actual games.
There's just a meme going around, still left over from 3.5 despite being thoroughly false in PF, that martials are weak. Actual play rarely shows this to be the case.
I made an argument in another thread that the Fighter isn't weak, he's incomplete, and it's something I'll stand by.
I think there's two major contributing factors to this:
1) The point I made about the Fighter being incomplete. I, personally, will not dispute the fact that the Fighter is pretty much the big cheese during the first 5 levels of play, nor that he can, under the right circumstances, maintain point as king of DPR throughout most of the life of play. These are generally true things. However, the difference between a Fighter and most of the other full BAB martials when it comes to dealing damage is actually pretty slim. Yes, he's better, but often not so much better that it's going to make a functional difference in play. If a Fighter caps out at 150 damage when a Barb is only doing 135, and the monsters only have 120 hp.... It doesn't matter. The math I've seen put together kind of supports this.
So the Fighter is the best at doing something that other guys are good at as well, but they all have huge toolboxes of other things they can do, like cleaving spell effects in half with their swords, tracking an enemy through atrocious conditions while simultaneously providing food and water for the group, or shmoozing with the powers of the land to build some political clout. There's an imbalance between the Fighter and other classes as far as performance. Almost every class in the game is well-rounded and multi-faceted. The Fighter is stunningly one-dimensional and just doesn't get as much as the other classes.2) Skills don't scale well. It's been noted by some that many spells can completely supplant the function of most skills, while adding something else to the mix besides. Invisibility gives you a +20 to stealth checks, and turns you invisible to boot. Spider Climb gives you an actual climb speed, a +8 to climb checks, and removes the need to make most of the most common checks.
I want better stuff from skills. 6 ranks in a trained skill has you performing at the level of the best olympic athletes in the real world. At 20 ranks, nothing has actually changed in what you can do, you can just do it under more adverse conditions. Why is that? At 20th level I'm not saying a Fighter should have magic, but his strength and skill should allow him to leap across the battlefield like John Carter, or dash up a cliff-face to strike out at a group of enemy archers. These feats aren't magical and they don't strain belief; what strains belief is that a character who's so far beyond his earlier self in terms of the sheer numbers supporting his actions still being bound by the same limitations. If it were possible for the Olympic athlete I mentioned earlier to push his body to the point where we was literally 3 times as strong and agile, don't you think that would have equivalent correspondence in his capabilities? Don't you think we'd be seeing new records for the high jump and the long jump, or rock climbers capable of hurling themselves 5 and 10 feet upwards with each pull of their arms? We don't see it now because human bodies aren't capable of that kind of strength, endurance, and skill. But characters in Pathfinder do, numerically, have that capability but are bound by the same restrictions that held them when they were just mere mortals like the rest of us. That's what I don't like.
I have exactly the same opinion on the matter.
And I do it when I am DMing, just inventing new actions with each their proper DC (and changing some actions DC that doesn't feel right).
Show me a Fighter who uses abilities intrinsic to the Fighter Class (so no trait band aids or magic item bandaids) who can pull off HALF that stuff.This annoys me. If I made a class that as a feature received infinite gold, by your logic the class couldn't do anything and is worthless.
A class providing a character with extra resources in one area so that they can invest in another is part of the overall class balance and design.
Not really... If getting infinite WBL was a class feature, one could reasonably argue that the class is designed to have better gear, therefore, having better gear is a merit of class. I think gear is a valid resource, if obtaining/using said gear is part of the class.
But that's not the case. Casters get just as much wealth as everyone else. In fact, they usually have more gold because need less gear (e.g.: Sorcerers don't need weapons or armor), are less dependent on it (e.g.:A Clerics can still be great assets to the team even if they loses all their weapons) and/or have a much easier time crafting/using their own gear (e.g.: Druids don't have to be Aasimars to be able to craft their own gear. Nor do they need to roll UMD to use wands of CLW).
Show me a Fighter who uses abilities intrinsic to the Fighter Class (so no trait band aids or magic item bandaids) who can pull off HALF that stuff.This annoys me. If I made a class that as a feature received infinite gold, by your logic the class couldn't do anything and is worthless.
A class providing a character with extra resources in one area so that they can invest in another is part of the overall class balance and design.
Not really... If getting infinite WBL was a class feature, one could reasonably argue that the class is designed to have better gear, therefore, having better gear is a merit of class. I think gear is a valid resource, if obtaining/using said gear is part of the class.
But that's not the case. Casters get just as much wealth as everyone else. In fact, they usually have more gold because need less gear (e.g.: Sorcerers don't need weapons or armor), are less dependent on it (e.g.:A Cleric can still be a great asset to the team even if she loses all her weapons) and/or have a much easier time crafting their own feats.
Give a wizard all the magical armor and weapons you want, he doesn't become more effective.
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I will use all the tools provided to my by RAW. If you choose not to use those tools, the problem is with you, not the game system.
The problem I have with "magic items and traits fix things" is that they lack anything that the class provides. You could literally give the same load out to a commoner and get the same results, but lack 10 feats, especially in cases of those where you're touting access to magic.
If a class needs band aids, you shouldn't say the class is healthy, you should admit that it needs care instead of glossing over the issue.
Give a wizard all the magical armor and weapons you want, he doesn't become more effective.
You're missing the point (and being dense on purpose, I believe).
Both Wizards and Fighters get the same WBL. Wizards need less gear, since they don't need weapons and armor, so they effectively get more wealth.
Give a wizard all the magical armor and weapons you want, he doesn't become more effective.You're missing the point (and being dense on purpose, I believe).
Both Wizards and Fighters get the same WBL. Wizards need less gear, since they don't need weapons and armor, so they effectively get more wealth.
They don't do much with gear either.
They don't give themselves new options. they just add more uses to the ones they have.
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I will use all the tools provided to my by RAW. If you choose not to use those tools, the problem is with you, not the game system.
Has good saves vs. everything, travels the planes using items she crafted: Cyrhraul Dig
Diverse Skills, broad access to magic: Celebrian Elanesse
Diverse Skills, battlefield control, access to magic: Alexander Mayweather
Rather than being snide about it, I'll actually compliment you on the builds, they're well done. And I'm sure the level of system mastery you have factors into how well they were done.
Not everyone has your level of system mastery, and for those who don't, they look at the Fighter with its 2 skill points and its lack of REAL class features (feats are nice, but they're not nearly as useful as real class features) with ideas to play any number of literary heroes, and they're sold "Full Attack until it's dead."
I'm not saying there's not people who don't enjoy that, but when you read the fluff of the Fighter:
Far more than mere thugs, these skilled warriors reveal the true deadliness of their weapons, turning hunks of metal into arms capable of taming kingdoms, slaughtering monsters, and rousing the hearts of armies.
The fluff of that and the Fighter's abilities just don't mesh at all.
Far more than mere thugs, these skilled warriors reveal the true deadliness of their weapons, turning hunks of metal into arms capable of taming kingdoms, slaughtering monsters, and rousing the hearts of armies.
The fluff of that and the Fighter's abilities just don't mesh at all.
I disagree.
"I kill stuff" can do all of that.
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Far more than mere thugs, these skilled warriors reveal the true deadliness of their weapons, turning hunks of metal into arms capable of taming kingdoms, slaughtering monsters, and rousing the hearts of armies.
The fluff of that and the Fighter's abilities just don't mesh at all.
I disagree.
"I kill stuff" can do all of that.
With that assessment, literally all classes fit that fluff.
They don't give themselves new options. they just add more uses to the ones they have.
Having more spell slots = having more options, because each spell slot can be used in a huge variety of ways. So when a caster gets, say, an item that let's him fly, he's essentially getting not only the ability to fly, but also the ability to do anything a 3rd level spell could do. Or he could retrain Fly for another spell known of same level, which effectively gets them more options.
They can also get access to stuff that is granted by other spell lists. (Hey, I'm a Sorcerer, I don't need a magic weapon or magic armor, so Ill use all the gold to buy a Ring of Freedom of Movement for myself")
Fighters will just get the ability to fly... And they will get far later than any Wizard or Sorcerer, even if they decide not to learn the spell.
Besides, what you're saying is actually arguing for my point.
"Fighters don't have options so, they are highly dependent on gear. Casters have so many options already that gear is not such a necessity, and yet, they get just as much gold as the Fighter."
Give a wizard all the magical armor and weapons you want, he doesn't become more effective.You're missing the point (and being dense on purpose, I believe).
Both Wizards and Fighters get the same WBL. Wizards need less gear, since they don't need weapons and armor, so they effectively get more wealth.
They don't do much with gear either.
They don't give themselves new options. they just add more uses to the ones they have.
Uh Metamagic Rods alone prove this statement completely shamelessly false. And that's before we get into stuff like Mnemonic Vestments or Cackling Hag's Blouse. Or Book of Harms. Or Cloak of the Hedge Wizard. Or..
They look like moderately interesting characters but I am not that impressed that they break the mould for fighter. All of them would be better done using a class other than fighter.Rather than being snide about it, I'll actually compliment you on the builds, they're well done. And I'm sure the level of system mastery you have factors into how well they were done.
Aye, many of them use fixes with race and magic items, which might actually be a sign of problems with the class. Not that a class can't have weaknesses.
Still doesn't change the fact a fighter's class is linear, as are most martials.
Uh Metamagic Rods alone prove this statement completely shamelessly false. And that's before we get into stuff like Mnemonic Vestments or Cackling Hag's Blouse. Or Book of Harms. Or Cloak of the Hedge Wizard. Or..
Aye, one of the most powerful options a caster can get is one that makes him better at doing what he does best, if that makes sense.
What if someone with a similar level of system mastery made a Wizard, Cleric, or say, Eldritch Knight? They can have UMD too.
They're all pretty cool characters, but their core mechanics work more in spite of the fact that they're a fighter rather than because of it.
I will use all the tools provided to my by RAW. If you choose not to use those tools, the problem is with you, not the game system.Has good saves vs. everything, travels the planes using items she crafted: Cyrhraul Dig
Diverse Skills, broad access to magic: Celebrian Elanesse
Diverse Skills, battlefield control, access to magic: Alexander Mayweather
Actually, Celebrian was posted in a Fighter thread not too long ago, and I actually thought it was a very good example of what was wrong with the Fighter:
- Poor Will save, +13 at level 20 is not enough. A caster will have 36 (+13) in his casting stat, so with no other modifiers (such as from Spell Focus) you have a 10% chance of saving against a 9th level spell.
- Lack of skill ranks. Fly is a skill tax for everyone, as is Perception. So you max those out, and there's your base Fighter skills gone. Your Fighter has 14 Int, so let's add two more, such as UMD and Diplomacy. Now any skills you want beyond those have to come from magic items, like the +6 enhancement bonus to Int that could have been spent on Wis. Or the Favored Class bonus that could have gone into HP.
Also she still has a chance to fail when using a scroll of CL 8 or higher. UMD cannot be seriously compared to spellcasting, for reasons everyone has gone over ad nauseam.
- Lots of bonus feats that don't actually do much, because combat feats are so often mediocre. Most Fighters can only hit things with their sword, but spend six feats, and it's now worthwhile to hit things with your sword AND your shield! Is that what they call versatility?
- Even with all those feats sunk into bloated feat chains, you still have bonus combat feats to spare. Fighter specific feats too! And there was nothing better out there than +2 Damage with Longsword.
- (Ex) Flight is nice, even if it is at 20' speed with poor maneuverability. But that comes from the race, all the Fighter did was give you a pile of bonus feats to offset the feat taxes for Angelic Wings.
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My naswer is that modular design is in its infancy right now. Designers were trying to accomodate too many tastes with a single inflexible frame. Going forward I'd like to see designers put a dial on power/epic that can be adjusted by the table. "You want x playstyle? Only play this part of the game then" should not be acceptable for anyone.I certainly find it acceptable. If I want to play a lord of the rings esque campaign, I'll stick to one at low levels. If I want to play something more in line with the Avengers I'll play high levels.
The frame the game is built on really does DRAMATICALLY change as levels rise, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Now, the fact that many people depend on APs which carry adventuring groups from level 1/2 up into the mid-high teens is an issue to be sure. But the fact remains that there's nothing wrong with leveling up incredibly slowly or not leveling up at all. So long as the character concept is fulfilled I'm perfectly happy sitting at level X for years exploring that character and his influence in the world.
Ok I guess I shouldnt have said anyone. Like many issues such as 3 min work day, LF;QW, rockettag, etc. you can say these things are no big deal but they are to some people. Modular design can help everyone out and wont affect those who are fine with things as they stand.
They're all pretty cool characters, but their core mechanics work more in spite of the fact that they're a fighter rather than because of it.
I will use all the tools provided to my by RAW. If you choose not to use those tools, the problem is with you, not the game system.Has good saves vs. everything, travels the planes using items she crafted: Cyrhraul Dig
Diverse Skills, broad access to magic: Celebrian Elanesse
Diverse Skills, battlefield control, access to magic: Alexander Mayweather
NOte that he have to provide 3 character for the diferent things. Particularly his "decent" (not great) save fighter is bad at skill and the one with acces to magic have an atrocious will save.
He actually can not do the things he promised. It is pretty know that you can have devote enough resources in the fighter to patch a weakness.
Now, the barbarian by the other hand, would be better at skills, saves, TOuch AC, no less AC, pounce, high DR, more HP, incredibly high CMB/CMD, cleave magic, all in the same build.
I think ultimately one must accept that Pathfinder would need a major rework for martials to "get epic", basically PF 2e. From the Paizo posts I've seen on the subject, I don't think that's a direction they want to take.
Fortunately one can still play and enjoy PF with the disparity, as well as play another system that makes martials function via rule of cool (Such as Legend).
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LOL at people using character race to claim a class is not underpowered...
Here, let me illustrate my point...
Male Devil, Pit Fiend Commoner 1
LE Large outsider (devil, evil, extraplanar, lawful)
Init +15; Senses darkvision 60 ft., see in darkness; Perception +33
Aura frightful presence (20 ft., DC 28), unholy aura (DC 26)
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Defense
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AC 38, touch 18, flat-footed 29 (+9 Dex, -1 size, +20 natural)
hp 368 (20d10+1d6+252); regeneration 5 (good weapons, good spells)
Fort +24, Ref +21, Will +19
DR 15/good, 15/silver; Immune fire, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10; SR 31
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft., fly 60 ft. (average)
Melee bite +32 (4d6+13) and
. . 2 claws +32 (2d8+13) and
. . tail slap +30 (2d8+6 plus grab) and
. . 2 wings +30 (2d6+6)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks constrict (2d8+13), poison
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 18th; concentration +26)
. . At will—blasphemy (DC 24), create undead, fireball (DC 21), greater dispel magic, greater scrying (DC 24), greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), invisibility, magic circle against good, mass hold monster (DC 27), persistent image (DC 23), power word stun, scorching ray, trap the soul (DC 26), unholy aura, wall of fire
. . 3/day—quickened fireball
. . 1/day—meteor swarm, summon
. . 1/year—wish
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Statistics
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Str 37, Dex 29, Con 35, Int 26, Wis 30, Cha 26
Base Atk +20; CMB +34 (+38 grapple); CMD 53
Feats Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Iron Will, Improved Vital Strike, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (fireball), Vital Strike
Traits indomitable faith, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +20 (+24 jump), Appraise +17, Bluff +31, Diplomacy +31, Disguise +27, Fly +30, Intimidate +31, Knowledge (arcana) +28, Knowledge (planes) +31, Knowledge (religion) +31, Perception +33, Sense Motive +33, Spellcraft +31, Stealth +28, Survival +22, Use Magic Device +28
Languages Abyssal, Aklo, Celestial, Common, Daemonic, Draconic, Infernal, Sylvan; telepathy 100 ft.
SQ devil shaping, disease
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Special Abilities
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Cleave If you hit a foe, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus but take -2 AC.
Combat Reflexes (10 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Damage Reduction (15/good) You have Damage Reduction against all except Good attacks.
Damage Reduction (15/silver) You have Damage Reduction against all except Silver attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Devil Shaping (Su) Three times per day, a pit fiend can spend a minute to transform nearby lemures into other lesser devils. A pit fiend can transform one lemure for every Hit Die the pit fiend possesses. It can then reshape these lemures into a number of Hit Dice's wo
Disease (DC 32) (Su) Devil Chills: Bite - injury; save Fort DC 32; onset immediate; frequency 1/day; effect 1d4 Str damage; cure 3 consecutive saves. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Energy Resistance, Acid (10) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Acid attacks.
Energy Resistance, Cold (10) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Flight (60 feet, Average) You can fly!
Frightful Presence (20 feet, 5d6 rds) (DC 28) This special quality makes a creature's very presence unsettling to foes. Activating this ability is a free action that is usually part of an attack or charge. Opponents within range who witness the action may become frightened or shaken. The range i
Grab: Tail slap (Large) (Ex) You can start a grapple as a free action if you hit with the designated weapon.
Immunity to Fire You are immune to fire damage.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Improved Iron Will (1/day) Can re-roll a Will save, but must take the second result.
Poison: Bite - injury (DC 32) (Ex) Poison—Injury; save Fort DC 32; freq 1/rd for 10 rds; effect 1d6 Con; cure 3 cons saves.
Power Attack -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Fireball) (3/day) Spell-like ability is cast as a swift action up to 3/day.
Regeneration 5 (good weapons, good spells) Heal HP quickly and cannot die.
See in Darkness See perfectly in darkness of any kind, including magical darkness.
Spell Resistance (31) You have Spell Resistance.
Summon (level 9, any 1 cr 19 or lower devil, 100%) (1/day) (Sp) A creature with the summon ability can summon other specific creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually has only a limited chance of success (as specified in the creature's entry). Roll d%: On a failure, no cr
Telepathy (100 feet) (Su) Communicate telepathically if the target has a language.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Holy S&@!! Commoners are OP! At 1st level, they can fly, see in the dark, summon demons, teleport, cast quickened fireballs, use telepathy, become invisible and even regenerate!
And they are immune to all sorts of stuff too!
OMGWTFBBQ, Paizo! NERF COMMONERS NOW!