But we both agree- that line needs to be FAQed.
And for some reason they have not done so.
Bingo. Another easy clarification would be "As a general rule, no creature can possess spell-like abilities that mimic spells of higher level than half its HD (rounded up)." That would necessitate bumping up the efreet's HD and one or two other corrections, but would solve the whole sno-cone wish factory thing, and anything else even vaguely similar to it.
I admit that a FAQ would be nice. I have asked for one.Indeed, and I seconded the motion. There are a lot of problems with the RAW, particularly the spells, that you solve with "just being grown ups" and that I try to solve (with mixed success) with written houserules. The fact that we can solve them does NOT mean they aren't there.
Shoot, even JJ's post on scry & fry makes it clear that he's houseruling against the RAW.
Not the post I have seen. He just said that seeing a person does not mean you necessarily see a location.
Even so, the line goes “Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying."
Note the words "possibly" and "such as".
If it said: “Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, which you can do by scrying." then yes, it'd be clear.
But we both agree- that line needs to be FAQed.
And for some reason they have not done so.
Actually, that line indicates that scrying absolutely works to get "viewed once" status. In that line it is used as an example of something one can do get the "viewed once" status. "Possibly" and "such as" in that sentence are there to indicate that scrying is not the *only* way to get "viewed once" status, it is merely one method out of many and an example of one that works.
And yes in actual play I have always seen it run that scrying a person allows you to teleport to their immediate area. This has happened at least 3 times in one particular high level campaign I ran (this was the one where the Wizard failed to teleport correctly multiple times over the course of the campaign).
Bingo. Another easy clarification would be "As a general rule, no creature can possess spell-like abilities that mimic spells of higher level than half its HD (rounded up)." That would necessitate bumping up the efreet's HD and one or two other corrections, but would solve the whole sno-cone wish factory thing, and anything else even vaguely similar to it.But we both agree- that line needs to be FAQed.
And for some reason they have not done so.
Planar Binding will still work regardless of that change.
Yeah the lack of non-cheese examples of caster greatness is astounding.Cute. Just declare every instance of OP casters as "cheese," and therefore maintain that casters aren't overpowered at all, because everything overpowered about them you dismiss as "pure cheese." Even when the hard-core limburger like planar binding, simulacrum, scry & fry, and so on are all written directly into the Core rules.Simulacrum is VERY doubtful. There's nothing to say that a lower HD Efritti gets Wish, for example. This could use a FAQ, but I don't think ANYONE plays that way.
Even so, the world changing aspects of Simulacrum are not to be dismissed. A half power copy of yourself is still extremely powerful.
A 14th level Wizard makes a Wizard capable of 4th level spells. It costs 3,500 GP to make. Pocket change.
This Wizard can break curses, scry, follow you around and envervate stuff, Stone Shape, Animate and Control 28 HD worth of Undead.
So he's got a squad of 14 undying soldiers(Bloody Skeletons), can shape 17 cubic feet of stone into all manner of stuff, enervate even level appropriate foes for you to slam with a nasty save or suck.
This completely ignores 1-3rd level spells that are still incredibly useful.
And the Head Wizard gets this benefit every 3,500 gold.
Yeah the lack of non-cheese examples of caster greatness is astounding.Cute. Just declare every instance of OP casters as "cheese," and therefore maintain that casters aren't overpowered at all, because everything overpowered about them you dismiss as "pure cheese." Even when the hard-core limburger like planar binding, simulacrum, scry & fry, and so on are all written directly into the Core rules.Simulacrum is VERY doubtful. There's nothing to say that a lower HD Efritti gets Wish, for example. This could use a FAQ, but I don't think ANYONE plays that way.
Even so, the world changing aspects of Simulacrum are not to be dismissed. A half power copy of yourself is still extremely powerful.
A 14th level Wizard makes a Wizard capable of 4th level spells. It costs 3,500 GP to make. Pocket change.
This Wizard can break curses, scry, follow you around and envervate stuff, Stone Shape, Animate and Control 28 HD worth of Undead.
So he's got a squad of 14 undying soldiers(Bloody Skeletons), can shape 17 cubic feet of stone into all manner of stuff, enervate even level appropriate foes for you to slam with a nasty save or suck.
This completely ignores 1-3rd level spells that are still incredibly useful.
And the Head Wizard gets this benefit every 3,500 gold.
Animate dead, enervate, and stone shape are clearly cheese /sarcasm. (Also, don't let them find out about Command Undead having days/level duration and allowing you have as many unintelligent undead under your command as you care to, they'll probably start looking for nachos.)
Planar Binding will still work regardless of that change.
Yeah, I'd cap planar binding by CR, not HD, and indeed would have a hard cap for total CR ever controllable at one time (to cut down on summoning spams, etc.). That said, an 18 HD or 18 CR critter could still net you a wish in exchange for an 8th level spell, so some sort of general ruling along the lines of "Hey, lower-level spells can never give you access to higher-level spells" would definitely be in order.
And the Head Wizard gets this benefit every 3,500 gold.
Ah, but if there was a hard cap on total CR worth of magic minions that anyone could control at one time... the structure of the Leadership feat comes to mind.
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Planar Binding will still work regardless of that change.Bingo. Another easy clarification would be "As a general rule, no creature can possess spell-like abilities that mimic spells of higher level than half its HD (rounded up)." That would necessitate bumping up the efreet's HD and one or two other corrections, but would solve the whole sno-cone wish factory thing, and anything else even vaguely similar to it.But we both agree- that line needs to be FAQed.
And for some reason they have not done so.
People abusing Planer Binding are ignoring this line from the spell:
The creature might later seek revenge.
Efreet to Farmer Joe: Mortal, I can make you wealthy and powerful beyond your imagining, but first you must make a specific wish on behalf of my, and a few of my friends.
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I'd like to ask those of you I know have a lot of PF experience with how things work/supposed to work. I noticed this thread and figured this might be a relevant question to ask. If not, then I apologize for the derail.
If a wizard has more than one ability which forces a target to roll two saves and take the lower value, does that stack? Specifically, from Mythic Adventures, Arcane Surge, True Archmage, and potentially even Spell Focus(Mythic).
Planar Binding will still work regardless of that change.Bingo. Another easy clarification would be "As a general rule, no creature can possess spell-like abilities that mimic spells of higher level than half its HD (rounded up)." That would necessitate bumping up the efreet's HD and one or two other corrections, but would solve the whole sno-cone wish factory thing, and anything else even vaguely similar to it.But we both agree- that line needs to be FAQed.
And for some reason they have not done so.People abusing Planer Binding are ignoring this line from the spell:
The creature might later seek revenge.
Of course, that's all dependent on your GM and could be anywhere from lenient never happening to vindictive and guaranteed. Its a pretty big variable. Its also an option, a potentially powerful one, that other classes might not have.
And the Head Wizard gets this benefit every 3,500 gold.Ah, but if there was a hard cap on total CR worth of magic minions that anyone could control at one time... the structure of the Leadership feat comes to mind.
Man, even with that in place a Simulacrum of yourself is nuts. Plus the only people who would even be affected by that cap would be casters since they essentially have this pool of extra help that is *currently* only limited by cash. With the cap in place, Casters are the only ones who can actually hit that cap. Which has me feeling weird. "My Fighter has 18 HD of unused magical help and I can't do a damn about it."
But now this has me thinking of some magical Armsman following a Fighter around. Cool.
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Of course, that's all dependent on your GM and could be anywhere from lenient never happening to vindictive and guaranteed. Its a pretty big variable. Its also an option, a potentially powerful one, that other classes might not have.
Of course: GM Fiat can hand wave the downside of any spell, but that is hardly RAW.
Planar Binding will still work regardless of that change.
People abusing Planer Binding are ignoring this line from the spell:
The creature might later seek revenge.
That's why the incredibly intelligent wizard isn't stupid enough to leave said minion alive.
Now, if it was a sorcerer, or an apprentice with a scroll on the other hand...
The creature might later seek revenge.That's why the incredibly intelligent wizard isn't stupid enough to leave said minion alive.
Creature may also have friends and/or allies...
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Planar Binding will still work regardless of that change.People abusing Planer Binding are ignoring this line from the spell:
The creature might later seek revenge.
That's why the incredibly intelligent wizard isn't stupid enough to leave said minion alive.
Now, if it was a sorcerer, or an apprentice with a scroll on the other hand...
Once the requested service is completed, the creature need only to inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came.
What makes you think your wish puppet is going to stick around. Disappearing is a non-action upon wish completion.
Of course, that's all dependent on your GM and could be anywhere from lenient never happening to vindictive and guaranteed. Its a pretty big variable. Its also an option, a potentially powerful one, that other classes might not have.Of course: GM Fiat can hand wave the downside of any spell, but that is hardly RAW.
Nothing explicitly happens. Regardless, you don't have to do something that demands revenge and its too big of a variable to depend on in either direction. But hey, the options there.
Probably best not to chat about it, it could go on forever.
Casters are the only ones who can actually hit that cap. Which has me feeling weird. "My Fighter has 18 HD of unused magical help and I can't do a damn about it."
Or -- fighter takes Leadership, fills his slots with warriors and cohorts and so on. Wizard takes Leadership, designates his slots in terms of summoning spells and controlled undead and so on. Same feat, same benefits, same effects.
Casters are the only ones who can actually hit that cap. Which has me feeling weird. "My Fighter has 18 HD of unused magical help and I can't do a damn about it."Or -- fighter takes Leadership, fills his slots with warriors and cohorts and so on. Wizard takes Leadership, designates his slots in terms of summoning spells and controlled undead and so on. Same feat, same benefits, same effects.
That'll work.
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Nothing explicitly happens. Regardless, you don't have to do something that demands revenge and its too big of a variable to depend on in either direction. But hey, the options there.Of course, that's all dependent on your GM and could be anywhere from lenient never happening to vindictive and guaranteed. Its a pretty big variable. Its also an option, a potentially powerful one, that other classes might not have.Of course: GM Fiat can hand wave the downside of any spell, but that is hardly RAW.
The option is explicitly written into the rules.
Right now your claiming wizards are unbalanced because the GM Fiat is negating the negative, yet if GM Fiat is applied to enforce balance you're crying foul.
Which side of the fence are you on? Do you want the RAW enforced or not. Do you want the GM plotting intricate, Wish powered revenge schemes backed by every single outsider you've squeezed a Wish from, or GM Fiat simply saying, No, you cannot do that.
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I'd rather Paizo rewrite the spell because the fact that a GM needs to redesign it is lazy design on Paizos part.
Which side of the fence are you on? Do you want the rules enforced or not. Do you want the GM plotting intricate, Wish powered revenge schemes backed by every single outsider you've squeezed a Wish from or GM Fiat simply saying, No, you cannot do that.
There isn't a side, this isn't Hatfield and McCoys.
I said it could go either way, and it could just as easily be somewhere in between and that its best not to chat about a variable where you shout "It could happen!" "but it might not!" in circles.
The option explicitly states only that particular creature will later seek revenge. If that creature is dead, RAW there are 0 consequences. Also, even if the creature does seek revenge, I'm ok with that. Free xp and treasure that comes looking for you sounds great.
Really, it safe to just say the creature is smart enough to not go looking for trouble with a caster strong enough to bind it.
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Which side of the fence are you on? Do you want the rules enforced or not. Do you want the GM plotting intricate, Wish powered revenge schemes backed by every single outsider you've squeezed a Wish from or GM Fiat simply saying, No, you cannot do that.There isn't a side, this isn't Hatfield and McCoys.
I said it could go either way, and it could just as easily be somewhere in between and that its best not to chat about a variable where you shout "It could happen!" "but it might not!" in circles.
You either argue for strict RAW, or allow GM Fiat.
It is hypocritical to argue the RAW is unbalanced while also arguing that sections of the RAW should be ignored.
Strict RAW shuts down the Sno-Cone wish machine by targeting the offending player with the vengeance of the powerful extra-planer beings he's abused.
I do imagine that if the player abuses too many extraplanars of the same faction that it would be bad and lead to consequences.
If he's smart and targets a bunch of different communities he would avoid any major repurcussions
Ex: keeps binding Efreets for wishes. A bunch of efreets show up to murder his face.
Ex: binds a few low rank devils. A few elementals of random elements. Some archons. He's not really worth the effort of any one faction to lynch.
Strict RAW shuts down the Sno-Cone wish machine by targeting the offending player with the vengeance of the powerful extra-planer beings he's abused.
First off, the "sno-cone" part refers to simulacrum, so no being is getting abused. Secondly, by the time you're planar binding efreet for wishes, they're not "powerful" with respect to you; they're chumps you can kill without really straining yourself.
The option is explicitly written into the rules.Right now your claiming wizards are unbalanced because the GM Fiat is negating the negative, yet if GM Fiat is applied to enforce balance you're crying foul.
Which side of the fence are you on? Do you want the RAW enforced or not. Do you want the GM plotting intricate, Wish powered revenge schemes backed by every single outsider you've squeezed a Wish from, or GM Fiat simply saying, No, you cannot do that.
No no no. The issue is that Casters often require GM Fiat to balance things. This is poor game design. The fact it is vague is even poorer game design.
The biggest issue with taking revenge of the wish binding is that it can easily be reasoned to be beneficial for the wish giver as well at which point why would the wish giver bother you for helping it?
I do imagine that if the player abuses too many extraplanars of the same faction that it would be bad and lead to consequences.
Even then, "I do imagine" is different from "according to the rules as written."
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Ex: binds a few low rank devils. A few elementals of random elements. Some archons. He's not really worth the effort of any one faction to lynch.
Acquiring the +5 inherent bonuses, as mentioned earlier in the thread, requires all 5 wishes to be used sequentially.
And even a single Efreeti can make life hell. (My example of an efreeti offering a commoner wealth and power in exchange for making a wish on the efreeti's behalf.)
Ex: binds a few low rank devils. A few elementals of random elements. Some archons. He's not really worth the effort of any one faction to lynch.Acquiring the +5 inherent bonuses, as mentioned earlier in the thread, requires all 5 wishes to be used sequentially.
And even a single Efreeti can make life hell. (My example of an efreeti offering a commoner wealth and power in exchange for making a wish on the efreeti's behalf.)
I hear scry and die tactics on players goes over well.
Is there a point in arguing this and couldn't there be something more productive said?
The option explicitly states only that particular creature will later seek revenge. If that creature is dead, RAW there are 0 consequences. Also, even if the creature does seek revenge, I'm ok with that. Free xp and treasure that comes looking for you sounds great.
Really, it safe to just say the creature is smart enough to not go looking for trouble with a caster strong enough to bind it.
Seeking revenge blatantly doesn't mean it is incapable of seeking help to do so. Seeking revenge could very easily include seek out allies in order to come back at you with them.
It is still not much of an actual threat and more likely to be a source of bonus XP. Personally I find the wish factory rather silly but planar binding is still crazily powerful as you get to bring extra party members with you.
Oh I agree it can seek help. That's why you have to kill the creature you summon. The spell does not say that another creature will try to get revenge on its behalf later. Thus, killing the initial creature RAW will make the revenge clause ineffective. Yes, this is very strict RAW and not how a game will likely play out, but that's what the "Oh so this spell will provide us with XP and treasures that comes to us." part was to cover.
Either way what I'm saying is that the revenge thing is not a good means of balancing.
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Secondly, by the time you're planar binding efreet for wishes, they're not "powerful" with respect to you; they're chumps you can kill without really straining yourself.
You lack imagination.
I don't have to directly fight you to cause harm, or even kill you. I can grant 3 wishes to a farmer on a different continent, bartering 1 wish to grant him his hearts desire (no twisting of words) in exchange for two wishes made on my behalf. The first Wish undoes what you forced from me. The second inflicts something truly nasty at a very inconvenient time.
I do imagine that if the player abuses too many extraplanars of the same faction that it would be bad and lead to consequences.Even then, "I do imagine" is different from "according to the rules as written."
RAW abducting a bunch of nobles, geasing them into giving you stuff, and then murdering them so they dont exact revenge wont turn you into criminals and get an investigation opened on them.
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Either way what I'm saying is that the revenge thing is not a good means of balancing.
Roleplay never is a great way to balance mechanics. Can make them flavorful, but never balance.
In other news, color spray at level one! Lots of fun. Create pit at level 2, fly at level 3, etc. Lots of nifty spells in the world that don't involve it.
I do imagine that if the player abuses too many extraplanars of the same faction that it would be bad and lead to consequences.Even then, "I do imagine" is different from "according to the rules as written."RAW abducting a bunch of nobles, geasing them into giving you stuff, and then murdering them so they dont exact revenge wont turn you into criminals and get an investigation opened on them.
Well it won't happen if nobody knows you did it.
You lack imagination.
I don't have to directly fight you to cause harm, or even kill you.
On the contrary, part of the reason they're so little threat is that the players presumably has some imagination, or he wouldn't be doing this in the first place.
Also, I'd be careful with using "I" and "you" in your sentence like that; it reads like a direct threat being made against another forum member. I hope I'm correct in assuming that wasn't your intent?
I'd like to ask those of you I know have a lot of PF experience with how things work/supposed to work. I noticed this thread and figured this might be a relevant question to ask. If not, then I apologize for the derail.
If a wizard has more than one ability which forces a target to roll two saves and take the lower value, does that stack? Specifically, from Mythic Adventures, Arcane Surge, True Archmage, and potentially even Spell Focus(Mythic).
Good question, one that's probably better suited for the Rules forum. To my knowledge, unless it explicitly states otherwise, such effects don't stack. Others here may know of a precedent that suggests otherwise.
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I am going to guess that you wont apply the same "twisting" of a non standard wish to those the Efreeti might seek than you would apply to a PC seeking to do the same. It says quite a lot...Ex: binds a few low rank devils. A few elementals of random elements. Some archons. He's not really worth the effort of any one faction to lynch.Acquiring the +5 inherent bonuses, as mentioned earlier in the thread, requires all 5 wishes to be used sequentially.
And even a single Efreeti can make life hell. (My example of an efreeti offering a commoner wealth and power in exchange for making a wish on the efreeti's behalf.)
Twisting of intent is something done by the wish granter.
Why would the efreeti twist the words of a wish made on his behalf?
I am going to guess that you wont apply the same "twisting" of a non standard wish to those the Efreeti might seek than you would apply to a PC seeking to do the same. It says quite a lot...Ex: binds a few low rank devils. A few elementals of random elements. Some archons. He's not really worth the effort of any one faction to lynch.Acquiring the +5 inherent bonuses, as mentioned earlier in the thread, requires all 5 wishes to be used sequentially.
And even a single Efreeti can make life hell. (My example of an efreeti offering a commoner wealth and power in exchange for making a wish on the efreeti's behalf.)
Agreed. Efreets especially should know better than most to try and go beyond the limits of Wish can safely do. Having a caster out to get you is one thing, having the universe out to get you is significantly worse.
I am going to guess that you wont apply the same "twisting" of a non standard wish to those the Efreeti might seek than you would apply to a PC seeking to do the same. It says quite a lot...Ex: binds a few low rank devils. A few elementals of random elements. Some archons. He's not really worth the effort of any one faction to lynch.Acquiring the +5 inherent bonuses, as mentioned earlier in the thread, requires all 5 wishes to be used sequentially.
And even a single Efreeti can make life hell. (My example of an efreeti offering a commoner wealth and power in exchange for making a wish on the efreeti's behalf.)
Twisting of intent is something done by the wish granter.
Why would the efreeti twist the words of a wish made on his behalf?
Rules:
"You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)"
It's the wish itself that perverts your intent.
Pretty much this. The Efreeti is only CR8. The Noble Efreeti is only CR10. By the time you are binding them you are level 11-12.Those are, of course, the CRs for 1st level NPC class efreeti. Using this logic, no humans or demihumans could ever be considered a threat, as they are a mere CR 1/3.
Monsters tend to only use their racial HD and not have class levels, particularly the ones you summon through planar binding. Your probably not summoning a wizard 20 effreeti.
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Also, I'd be careful with using "I" and "you" in your sentence like that; it reads like a direct threat being made against another forum member. I hope I'm correct in assuming that wasn't your intent?
Context is important. The following sentence uses the same pronouns in while granting wishes.
Unless you think I'm granting wishes in real life.....
The option explicitly states only that particular creature will later seek revenge. If that creature is dead, RAW there are 0 consequences. Also, even if the creature does seek revenge, I'm ok with that. Free xp and treasure that comes looking for you sounds great.
Really, it safe to just say the creature is smart enough to not go looking for trouble with a caster strong enough to bind it.
Powerful extra planar creatures very likely have friends who can bring them back, you know. Wish works both ways.
And, you'd have to kill them in time period of less than a std action.
Those are, of course, the CRs for 1st level NPC class efreeti. Using this logic, no humans or demihumans could ever be considered a threat, as they are a mere CR 1/3.
Yeah, it's not like planar binding has HD limits or anything... oh, wait.
Also, the efreeti shown in the Bestiary does not have 1 level in any NPC class at all; it just has racial HD.