The sheer amount of nonsense in this debate has masked most legitimate concerns with mechanical imbalance. The fake demiplanes and simulacrum pretend problems are ruining things for real issues.So the fact a full caster can create his own demiplane, make skill checks a joke, or send in the clones and play god in so many ways isn't part of some sort of imbalance?
So what are mechanical imbalances that bother you then?
1. Doesn't bother me.
2. Doesn't happen.3. Not a real argument or position to address.
Mechanical imbalances that bother me would include fighters not having a lot of good narrative power (and the game not being set up to provide that consistently in the absence of working it into the class), pretty much most of the rogue talents (has anyone checked out Steal the Story?) and hit points relative to damage potential. There's others, but those are the top of my mind. I suppose blood money being limited to strength you have in your natural unaugmented form would fix most of its issues, but the spell itself is a non-issue in every game I've ever seen it used in.
All the make believe stuff about teleport reducing your world's transportation to nothing, or anzyr's ridiculous claims about DC 10 local checks providing you every single city in the world's name and description or that Invisibility's stealth bonus makes you quieter are just that...make believe.
OK since you guys seem too busy talking about non-PRD spells and whether or not fighters make good spellcasters, I'll try to bring up some "casters broke the game" situations.
Supper High level:
Anything without flying is subject to this combo
Timestop + Gate + Reverse Gravity
Mid level example:
Transport spells - no LoTR like campaigns once you get to mid levels.
Personality affecting Enchantments and/or possession spells - One failed will save can ruin whole quest lines.
Divinations - if used right, they can ruin many surprises the GM had in store.
All level example:
The chance for silver bullet spells.
Fighting a level 99 dex based rogue? Cast blur and only take base weapon damage!
Sneak up on a mage? Cast antimagic field on your familiar, have it hide next to the mage and let your party fighter ruin that mages day.
The Divine Archer of Super Damage is attacking? Windwall!
Melee only mob in open space? Fly!
The sheer amount of nonsense in this debate has masked most legitimate concerns with mechanical imbalance. The fake demiplanes and simulacrum pretend problems are ruining things for real issues.So the fact a full caster can create his own demiplane, make skill checks a joke, or send in the clones and play god in so many ways isn't part of some sort of imbalance?
So what are mechanical imbalances that bother you then?
1. Doesn't bother me.
2. Doesn't happen.
3. Not a real argument or position to address.Mechanical imbalances that bother me would include fighters not having a lot of good narrative power (and the game not being set up to provide that consistently in the absence of working it into the class), pretty much most of the rogue talents (has anyone checked out Steal the Story?) and hit points relative to damage potential. There's others, but those are the top of my mind. I suppose blood money being limited to strength you have in your natural unaugmented form would fix most of its issues, but the spell itself is a non-issue in every game I've ever seen it used in.
All the make believe stuff about teleport reducing your world's transportation to nothing, or anzyr's ridiculous claims about DC 10 local checks providing you every single city in the world's name and description or that Invisibility's stealth bonus makes you quieter are just that...make believe.
Uh... demiplanes absolutely crop in real high level games. As does Clone (seriously why wouldn't you use Clone at high levels?). And teleport has been seeing use from level 9 onwards. And as previously explained... Invisibility increases your Stealth, which increases your ability to move silently. I'm sorry, but like other posters before you... you are wrong on this issue. Also... Knowledge (Local) is knowledge of all the local customs of every city everywhere. It is not limited to a particular city, country or region. Thus, yes a DC 10 check should suffice.
The sheer amount of nonsense in this debate has masked most legitimate concerns with mechanical imbalance. The fake demiplanes and simulacrum pretend problems are ruining things for real issues.So the fact a full caster can create his own demiplane, make skill checks a joke, or send in the clones and play god in so many ways isn't part of some sort of imbalance?
So what are mechanical imbalances that bother you then?
1. Doesn't bother me.
2. Doesn't happen.
3. Not a real argument or position to address.Mechanical imbalances that bother me would include fighters not having a lot of good narrative power (and the game not being set up to provide that consistently in the absence of working it into the class), pretty much most of the rogue talents (has anyone checked out Steal the Story?) and hit points relative to damage potential. There's others, but those are the top of my mind. I suppose blood money being limited to strength you have in your natural unaugmented form would fix most of its issues, but the spell itself is a non-issue in every game I've ever seen it used in.
All the make believe stuff about teleport reducing your world's transportation to nothing, or anzyr's ridiculous claims about DC 10 local checks providing you every single city in the world's name and description or that Invisibility's stealth bonus makes you quieter are just that...make believe.
You're pointing out the difference between the PF general rules and the games people actually play.
The invisibility thing? That's a GM ruling (either way you slice it).
Simulacrum being used at all requires a GM ruling.
How blood money interacts with equipment and abilities from other campaigns specific sources? GM ruling.
Like it or not we play the version of the game our GMs lay out (yes even in PFS). A lot of people here try to talk about how things are in "General Pathfinder" games that no one plays and not "normal* GM" games, which people actually play something similar to that.
*as in statistically normal.
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Hah! Made it to the end of the thread! I'v managed to read the whole thing in just under a day, and I must say, it's made me much wiser! High five!
*claps hands once, loudly*
Now let's go investigate why those purple bunnies from Mars Base keep insisting on blowing up Hoover dam with their blood broccoli noodle men.
*runs off into the sunset laughing manically*
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Sometimes I fell that spells of 4-6 should be accessed through a feat per school and 7-9 cost a feat per spell.
This is not a real suggestion but sometimes a fighter feels this way.
Can you even imagine how whiny Nathanael Love (and similarly entitled wizard players) would get if spellcasters had to jump through even half the hoops that martials did?
Let's not forget that if you want Greater X (or any higher level improved version of a spell), you would have to burn the feat to get Lesser X first.
It would be interesting if spellcasters were similarly limited, such as not being able to take Summon Monster IX without first knowing I - VIII, or not being able to learn spells of a particular school at each level without knowing at least that many of the preceding level(s) (for example, having to know at least 9 evocation spells to have enough understanding to learn a 9th level evocation, or having to know at least 2 level 1 and 1 level 2 abjuration spells in order to learn dispel magic.
Uh... demiplanes absolutely crop in real high level games. As does Clone (seriously why wouldn't you use Clone at high levels?). And teleport has been seeing use from level 9 onwards. And as previously explained... Invisibility increases your Stealth, which increases your ability to move silently. I'm sorry, but like other posters before you... you are wrong on this issue. Also... Knowledge (Local) is knowledge of all the local customs of every city EVERYWHERE. It is not limited to a particular city, country or region. Thus, yes a...The sheer amount of nonsense in this debate has masked most legitimate concerns with mechanical imbalance. The fake demiplanes and simulacrum pretend problems are ruining things for real issues.So the fact a full caster can create his own demiplane, make skill checks a joke, or send in the clones and play god in so many ways isn't part of some sort of imbalance?
So what are mechanical imbalances that bother you then?
1. Doesn't bother me.
2. Doesn't happen.
3. Not a real argument or position to address.Mechanical imbalances that bother me would include fighters not having a lot of good narrative power (and the game not being set up to provide that consistently in the absence of working it into the class), pretty much most of the rogue talents (has anyone checked out Steal the Story?) and hit points relative to damage potential. There's others, but those are the top of my mind. I suppose blood money being limited to strength you have in your natural unaugmented form would fix most of its issues, but the spell itself is a non-issue in every game I've ever seen it used in.
All the make believe stuff about teleport reducing your world's transportation to nothing, or anzyr's ridiculous claims about DC 10 local checks providing you every single city in the world's name and description or that Invisibility's stealth bonus makes you quieter are just that...make believe.
I cant quite remember, but im sure you make a normal amount of noise while invisible.
Yeah the spell says...
Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as swimming in water or stepping in a puddle). If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving.
Weird quandary. I dont think it applies to sound according to the description. I would specify the bonus to stealth is visual only.
I run into problems when I try to run published adventures and the party casters start asking themselves "Why should I go in the front door?" "They probably guard the back door to, how about I just make my own door?"
** spoiler omitted **
A few open or commonly prepared spells is all the above took to skip 20 or so encounters. Earlier in the AP several encounter happen on the road. Why would a typical 11th level party walk anywhere? Share memory plus teleport, tree stride, druid cargo plane, carpet of flying split 5 ways, overland flight with ant haul belt means even the sorc can carry the fighter.
Errr...because Book 5 has an evil soul sucking mist that prevents teleportation and flight into the area, for one thing. Or was that book 6?
...Uh... demiplanes absolutely crop in real high level games. As does Clone (seriously why wouldn't you use Clone at high levels?). And teleport has been seeing use from level 9 onwards. And as previously explained... Invisibility increases your Stealth, which increases your ability to move silently. I'm sorry, but like other posters before you... you are wrong on this issue. Also... Knowledge (Local) is knowledge of all the local customs of every city EVERYWHERE. It is not limited to a particular city, countryThe sheer amount of nonsense in this debate has masked most legitimate concerns with mechanical imbalance. The fake demiplanes and simulacrum pretend problems are ruining things for real issues.So the fact a full caster can create his own demiplane, make skill checks a joke, or send in the clones and play god in so many ways isn't part of some sort of imbalance?
So what are mechanical imbalances that bother you then?
1. Doesn't bother me.
2. Doesn't happen.
3. Not a real argument or position to address.Mechanical imbalances that bother me would include fighters not having a lot of good narrative power (and the game not being set up to provide that consistently in the absence of working it into the class), pretty much most of the rogue talents (has anyone checked out Steal the Story?) and hit points relative to damage potential. There's others, but those are the top of my mind. I suppose blood money being limited to strength you have in your natural unaugmented form would fix most of its issues, but the spell itself is a non-issue in every game I've ever seen it used in.
All the make believe stuff about teleport reducing your world's transportation to nothing, or anzyr's ridiculous claims about DC 10 local checks providing you every single city in the world's name and description or that Invisibility's stealth bonus makes you quieter are just that...make believe.
That line about not being magically silent just means that you make sound like normal. It doesn't give you Silence as well Invisibility. It does however improve your mundane ability to not make noise since it increases your Stealth.
That line about not being magically silent just means that you make sound like normal. It doesn't give you Silence as well Invisibility. It does however improve your mundane ability to not make noise since it increases your Stealth.
Do you run it that way in your games?
That is how it works so yes. You get a +20 to stealth even while moving which will allow you to move more quietly then if you did not have the +20 bonus to stealth.
That is how it works so yes. You get a +20 to stealth even while moving which will allow you to move more quietly then if you did not have the +20 bonus to stealth.
Let's break that down.
"You get a +20 to stealth check" Yep that is what the spell says
"even while moving which will allow you to move more quietly" Which the spell says you can't do, but that is how the stealth skill works.
You are not following RAW because the RAW contradicts.
The RAW does not contradict. It doesn't say you can't move silently. It says it doesn't make you magically silent. It still improves your stealth and thus your ability to move silently. The fact that your skill bonus will make you move silently doesn't mean that you have become magically silent. Just gained a bonus at moving silently.
Where does all this endless wealth come from? Lots of spells require money and if you are going to spend all that money then it leaves you with less magic items.The sheer amount of nonsense in this debate has masked most legitimate concerns with mechanical imbalance. The fake demiplanes and simulacrum pretend problems are ruining things for real issues.So the fact a full caster can create his own demiplane, make skill checks a joke, or send in the clones and play god in so many ways isn't part of some sort of imbalance?
So what are mechanical imbalances that bother you then?
Craft Woundrous Item
You were saying?
The RAW does not contradict. It doesn't say you can't move silently. It says it doesn't make you magically silent. It still improves your stealth and thus your ability to move silently. The fact that your skill bonus will make you move silently doesn't mean that you have become magically silent. Just gained a bonus at moving silently.
Yeah no. If anything the RAW would be specifics over general. The invisibility spells says it doesn't make you quieter so when someone is making an opposed perception check you get the +20 bonus only to being pinpointed through vision senses and no bonus to being detected through other senses.
"Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as swimming in water or stepping in a puddle)." Like loud footsteps or clunky plate mail.
In our games the wizard flies while invisible like God intended.
It says it doesn't make you magically silent and that other conditions can you make you detectable. Which has nothing to do with the +20 stealth bonus that allows you able to move more quietly. This is very straight forward.
OK, look guys. Stealth is two skills- Hide and Move Silently. Invis does nothing for the second skill.
So, please stop the hijack.
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OK, look guys. Stealth is two skills- Hide and Move Silently. Invis does nothing for the second skill.
So, please stop the hijack.
Dude this whole thread is hijacks.
Which is real game destructive power of casters. Their turns can easily take 30+ minutes as people debate over the rules*, the GM reads the spells, the player reads the spell, the party reads the spell, all wondering how this thing interacts with the 9000+ things it never talks about interacting with...
Or I could play a fighter and hit stuff.
*Which is why I now ascribe to the idea that the GM is the rules and that their is no such thing as a houserule in it's standard connotation.
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OK, look guys. Stealth is two skills- Hide and Move Silently. Invis does nothing for the second skill.
So, please stop the hijack.
Not in Pathfinder. It's one skill. That does both. And it benefits from Invisibility. And because it's me here's your rules quote:
"This skill covers hiding and moving silently."
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"Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you." That's all there is to the skill; there are no extra articles for determining how it interacts with moving silently vs. hiding. You either beat their perception check and stay hidden or you don't. How the foe potentially notices you is flavor text.
However...
"If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth."
Could someone "observe" you through hearing the obnoxious clanking of heavy armor? It sounds reasonable to me... though that's less of an issue for the wizard than the fighter who might otherwise be getting a share of the spell.
...Uh... demiplanes absolutely crop in real high level games. As does Clone (seriously why wouldn't you use Clone at high levels?). And teleport has been seeing use from level 9 onwards. And as previously explained... Invisibility increases your Stealth, which increases your ability to move silently. I'm sorry, but like other posters before you... you are wrong on this issue. Also... Knowledge (Local) is knowledge of all the local customs of every city EVERYWHERE. It is not limitedThe sheer amount of nonsense in this debate has masked most legitimate concerns with mechanical imbalance. The fake demiplanes and simulacrum pretend problems are ruining things for real issues.So the fact a full caster can create his own demiplane, make skill checks a joke, or send in the clones and play god in so many ways isn't part of some sort of imbalance?
So what are mechanical imbalances that bother you then?
1. Doesn't bother me.
2. Doesn't happen.
3. Not a real argument or position to address.Mechanical imbalances that bother me would include fighters not having a lot of good narrative power (and the game not being set up to provide that consistently in the absence of working it into the class), pretty much most of the rogue talents (has anyone checked out Steal the Story?) and hit points relative to damage potential. There's others, but those are the top of my mind. I suppose blood money being limited to strength you have in your natural unaugmented form would fix most of its issues, but the spell itself is a non-issue in every game I've ever seen it used in.
All the make believe stuff about teleport reducing your world's transportation to nothing, or anzyr's ridiculous claims about DC 10 local checks providing you every single city in the world's name and description or that Invisibility's stealth bonus makes you quieter are just that...make believe.
Yeah, man, you're really stretching your interpretation. I've always felt invisibility needed to be explained better with respect to sound and disturbing your enviorns, although that might make the spell several pages long in terms of description.
It is book 6 but the just use windwalk instead of teleport and the no fly zone is only on the final building. I tried bad weather to stop the flight but they just went into space with life bubble and used control weather to land.
Eh, at that point I'd let them do it if only to watch them get their asses stomped because they just bypassed two books worth of encounters and are 4-5 levels below where they should be.
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...Uh... demiplanes absolutely crop in real high level games. As does Clone (seriously why wouldn't you use Clone at high levels?). And teleport has been seeing use from level 9 onwards. And as previously explained... Invisibility increases your Stealth, which increases your ability to move silently. I'm sorry, but like other posters before you... you are wrong on this issue. Also... Knowledge (Local) is knowledge of all the local customs of every cityThe sheer amount of nonsense in this debate has masked most legitimate concerns with mechanical imbalance. The fake demiplanes and simulacrum pretend problems are ruining things for real issues.So the fact a full caster can create his own demiplane, make skill checks a joke, or send in the clones and play god in so many ways isn't part of some sort of imbalance?
So what are mechanical imbalances that bother you then?
1. Doesn't bother me.
2. Doesn't happen.
3. Not a real argument or position to address.Mechanical imbalances that bother me would include fighters not having a lot of good narrative power (and the game not being set up to provide that consistently in the absence of working it into the class), pretty much most of the rogue talents (has anyone checked out Steal the Story?) and hit points relative to damage potential. There's others, but those are the top of my mind. I suppose blood money being limited to strength you have in your natural unaugmented form would fix most of its issues, but the spell itself is a non-issue in every game I've ever seen it used in.
All the make believe stuff about teleport reducing your world's transportation to nothing, or anzyr's ridiculous claims about DC 10 local checks providing you every single city in the world's name and description or that Invisibility's stealth bonus makes you quieter are just that...make believe.
It's not an interpretation. It's the rules. Here's the rules:
Here's what Knowledge (Local) covers:
"Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)"
Here's what you can learn with a DC 10 check:
"Know local laws, rulers, and popular locations."
Despite being called Knowledge (Local) it is not restricted to one area. Want to learn about popular locations in Cheliax? DC 10 Knowledge Local. Want to learn about popular locations in Taldor? Still a DC 10 Knowledge (local).
It is book 6 but the just use windwalk instead of teleport and the no fly zone is only on the final building. I tried bad weather to stop the flight but they just went into space with life bubble and used control weather to land.Eh, at that point I'd let them do it if only to watch them get their asses stomped because they just bypassed two books worth of encounters and are 4-5 levels below where they should be.
You don't give XP to your players for overcoming encounters?
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Spellcasters typically don't break games. That's just the mindset of vocal martial fan boys who are tired of having their few good martial abilities nerfed by Paizo time and time again.
If Paizo would up the power/versatility of martials somewhat, and stop nerfing them, a lot of these threads would disappear I'd wager.
I completely agree. What if Vital Strike worked with the Charge action or whatever the nerf on that feat is? Imagine how much less we'd hear from the "stop taking away our nice things" crowd.
Seriously I haven't seen spellcasters break my game. The only guy who's broken things lately was a highly optimized Paladin 2... and Smite... and a wyvern with the Simple: Young template. Whole rest of the party runs; the paladin hits smite and goes "bring it." Wyvern defeated.
Who says martials can't have nice things...
You don't give XP to your players for overcoming encounters?It is book 6 but the just use windwalk instead of teleport and the no fly zone is only on the final building. I tried bad weather to stop the flight but they just went into space with life bubble and used control weather to land.Eh, at that point I'd let them do it if only to watch them get their asses stomped because they just bypassed two books worth of encounters and are 4-5 levels below where they should be.
They didn't overcome an encounter. They just fast traveled from one place to another, bypassing any danger.
XP is short for "experience" as in "You experienced something and learned from it".
If you never come in contact with it, you never experienced it, did you?
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Spellcasters typically don't break games. That's just the mindset of vocal martial fan boys who are tired of having their few good martial abilities nerfed by Paizo time and time again.
If Paizo would up the power/versatility of martials somewhat, and stop nerfing them, a lot of these threads would disappear I'd wager.
I completely agree. What if Vital Strike worked with the Charge action or whatever the nerf on that feat is? Imagine how much less we'd hear from the "stop taking away our nice things" crowd.
Seriously I haven't seen spellcasters break my game. The only guy who's broken things lately was a highly optimized Paladin 2... and Smite... and a wyvern with the Simple: Young template. Whole rest of the party runs; the paladin hits smite and goes "bring it." Wyvern defeated.
Who says martials can't have nice things...
This is funny to me because the wyvern is a true neutral creature and isn't affected by smite.
You don't give XP to your players for overcoming encounters?It is book 6 but the just use windwalk instead of teleport and the no fly zone is only on the final building. I tried bad weather to stop the flight but they just went into space with life bubble and used control weather to land.Eh, at that point I'd let them do it if only to watch them get their asses stomped because they just bypassed two books worth of encounters and are 4-5 levels below where they should be.They didn't overcome an encounter. They just fast traveled from one place to another, bypassing any danger.
XP is short for "experience" as in "You experienced something and learned from it".
If you never come in contact with it, you never experienced it, did you?
Expending significant amounts of resources to recon a dozen encounters, traps, and hazards, and then finding clever means of getting past them? Sounds to me like the definition of overcoming them.
Now, had they teleported from A to B and had no knowledge that they were (accidentally) bypassing encounters, than I would consider not giving it to them. In the example provided, however, that is clearly not the case.
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You don't give XP to your players for overcoming encounters?It is book 6 but the just use windwalk instead of teleport and the no fly zone is only on the final building. I tried bad weather to stop the flight but they just went into space with life bubble and used control weather to land.Eh, at that point I'd let them do it if only to watch them get their asses stomped because they just bypassed two books worth of encounters and are 4-5 levels below where they should be.They didn't overcome an encounter. They just fast traveled from one place to another, bypassing any danger.
XP is short for "experience" as in "You experienced something and learned from it".
If you never come in contact with it, you never experienced it, did you?
Expending significant amounts of resources to recon a dozen encounters, traps, and hazards, and then finding clever means of getting past them? Sounds to me like the definition of overcoming them.
Now, had they teleported from A to B and had no knowledge that they were (accidentally) bypassing encounters, than I would consider not giving it to them. In the example provided, however, that is clearly not the case.
I dunno that it's "clear" that it's not the case, and TBH I don't consider using Divinations to be particularly "clever".
This is part of that Gentleman's Agreement we were discussing earlier. You don't go out of your way to bypass 50% of the things I have prepared for no other reason than you can, and I won't gyp you out of XP and treasure.
That goes a bit beyond "Well why don't we just Teleport?" and into methodical, willful "Yeah let's f!$% with him" territory (since after the easy no-brainer solution was shut down they were like "And then we went to space").
I'm fine with a series of encounters being pretty easy because you Divined ways to beat them easily, and the occasional "Yeah why don't we just do X?" solution when it's either obvious (and thus the area is poorly written) or an extremely clever, outside of the box way to beat/bypass something but it's fun for nobody when you go "Yeah, so, I don't care, we're going to find SOME way to bypass everything in this book, 'kay?".
There has to be a bit of give and take there. You don't go out of your way to ruin the campaign, I won't have my spellcaster BBEGs scry and fry you from the safety of a Demiplane you have no way of accessing "because I can".
I completely agree. What if Vital Strike worked with the Charge action or whatever the nerf on that feat is? Imagine how much less we'd hear from the "stop taking away our nice things" crowd.Seriously I haven't seen spellcasters break my game. The only guy who's broken things lately was a highly optimized Paladin 2... and Smite... and a wyvern with the Simple: Young template. Whole rest of the party runs; the paladin hits smite and goes "bring it." Wyvern defeated.
Who says martials can't have nice things...
Generally speaking,
Keep in mind that the Paladin is a top tier martial. Usually when we complain about stuff for being taken from Martials, it happens to Fighter, Monk, or Rogue more severely.
Well the spell Fireball ruined a lot of the theme and flavor in my Skull and Shackles campaign. And that's almost as basic and as iconic as a spell can get.
Catching merchant ships is a very lucrative process (easily 5k gold per ship + cargo for even basic ships). However, all the basic ships statted up in S&S were crewed by low level flunkies (with maybe a medium level officer or two), and almost all ships as written had no defense against long range AoE magic. Lead off the attack with a Fireball or two, and poof, half the enemy crew is dead/dieing, and the ship is now unpilotable. The Sorcerer metamagiced the Fireball do do Cold damage so that the ships wouldn't catch fire and burn away the profit as well.
This was really annoying when the first module taught the players how to do some ship to ship combat and do a boarding action, but once module 2 came about, it was almost pointless. Seriously, comparing a siege engine doing 3d8 damage to a single crew member (or a 1500hp ship) vs Fireballing the entire crew of 2nd level flunkies was a no brainer.
As a result, I pretty much stopped all the piracy encounters, and just gave them a monthly stipend saying, "Yes, you caught X amount of ships, here is your monthly gold."
And sure I modified some encounters and added some rules to make things not completely ridiculous. But I buy APs so I don't have to do so much work, and not once in any of the books is it addresses countermeasures to PCs just chasing down dozens of ships and Fireballing them into helplessness for stupid amounts of funds.
I'm really confused at this "My spellcasters intentionally play badly so the classes are fine" mentality. I don't really get how that somehow invalidates what tools they have vs what tools their counterparts have.
I'd imagine if they don't take advantage of it or if you houserule against the options then its just not a problem for you. The potential is still in the system though, which is why we point to the Oberoni fallacy. Its usually not wise to point to fallacies on a forum though.
I like how your example of "martials can have nice things" is... a spellcasting class.
Seriously?
Paladin is only four level casting, and the example was using smite on a wyvern. Smite itself isn't the nicest thing around, its made of numbers, really sexy numbers, but still, numbers.
I dunno that it's "clear" that it's not the case, and TBH I don't consider using Divinations to be particularly "clever".
This is part of that Gentleman's Agreement we were discussing earlier. You don't go out of your way to bypass 50% of the things I have prepared for no other reason than you can, and I won't gyp you out of XP and treasure.
That goes a bit beyond "Well why don't we just Teleport?" and into methodical, willful "Yeah let's f$@+ with him" territory (since after the easy no-brainer solution was shut down they were like "And then we went to space").
I'm fine with a series of encounters being pretty easy because you Divined ways to beat them easily, and the occasional "Yeah why don't we just do X?" solution when it's either obvious (and thus the area is poorly written) or an extremely clever, outside of the box way to beat/bypass something but it's fun for nobody when you go "Yeah, so, I don't care, we're going to find SOME way to bypass everything in this book, 'kay?".
There has to be a bit of give and take there. You don't go out of your way to ruin the campaign, I won't have my spellcaster BBEGs scry and fry you from the safety of a Demiplane you have no way of accessing "because I can".
A GM who can't handle such things should seriously reconsider hosting high level games. We will just have to agree to disagree. I think gyping the PCs hard earned XP (even if it wasn't quite as hard earned as you'd like) is a crime.
Ultimately, you need to ask yourself: Did we all have fun? Will my changing things/not giving them XP interfere with their having fun?
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My fighter carries and uses both. Zero martial/caster disparity there.Until what you are trying to do requires a save, or has to penetrate SR or has other elements linked to caster level such as the check for dispel magic. Potions and scrolls are great for filling in some areas but they are also limited in what gaps they can cover.
Scrolls also require your martial character to invest fairly heavily in UMD and mean they struggle if they dump charisma which is a fairly common candidate for a dump stat.
This applies equally to the argument that a wizard can be prepared for any situation by carrying potions and scrolls.
I dunno that it's "clear" that it's not the case, and TBH I don't consider using Divinations to be particularly "clever".
This is part of that Gentleman's Agreement we were discussing earlier. You don't go out of your way to bypass 50% of the things I have prepared for no other reason than you can, and I won't gyp you out of XP and treasure.
That goes a bit beyond "Well why don't we just Teleport?" and into methodical, willful "Yeah let's f$@+ with him" territory (since after the easy no-brainer solution was shut down they were like "And then we went to space").
I'm fine with a series of encounters being pretty easy because you Divined ways to beat them easily, and the occasional "Yeah why don't we just do X?" solution when it's either obvious (and thus the area is poorly written) or an extremely clever, outside of the box way to beat/bypass something but it's fun for nobody when you go "Yeah, so, I don't care, we're going to find SOME way to bypass everything in this book, 'kay?".
There has to be a bit of give and take there. You don't go out of your way to ruin the campaign, I won't have my spellcaster BBEGs scry and fry you from the safety of a Demiplane you have no way of accessing "because I can".
A GM who can't handle such things should seriously reconsider hosting high level games. We will just have to agree to disagree. I think gyping the PCs hard earned XP (even if it wasn't quite as hard earned as you'd like) is a crime.
Ultimately, you need to ask yourself: Did we all have fun? Will my changing things/not giving them XP interfere with their having fun?
The point is a bit moot since I don't use EXP anyway but if I did I'd probably at the LEAST give reduced experience for...not experiencing an encounter.
Whether they beat it, talk their way through it, sneak past it, whatever IDGAF but it'd be nice for them to actually, you know, interact with the encounter in some way.
I'd imagine if they don't take advantage of it or if you houserule against the options then its just not a problem for you.See, that's perfectly valid. It gets irksome though when the player then insists that everyone else is "doing it wrong" because their spellcasters are playing to their full potential and therefore outpacing everything else in the game.
Perfectly valid for why its not a problem for you and why it might be a potential problem in the system itself.
Well the spell Fireball ruined a lot of the theme and flavor in my Skull and Shackles campaign. And that's almost as basic and as iconic as a spell can get.
Catching merchant ships is a very lucrative process (easily 5k gold per ship + cargo for even basic ships). However, all the basic ships statted up in S&S were crewed by low level flunkies (with maybe a medium level officer or two), and almost all ships as written had no defense against long range AoE magic. Lead off the attack with a Fireball or two, and poof, half the enemy crew is dead/dieing, and the ship is now unpilotable. The Sorcerer metamagiced the Fireball do do Cold damage so that the ships wouldn't catch fire and burn away the profit as well.
This was really annoying when the first module taught the players how to do some ship to ship combat and do a boarding action, but once module 2 came about, it was almost pointless. Seriously, comparing a siege engine doing 3d8 damage to a single crew member (or a 1500hp ship) vs Fireballing the entire crew of 2nd level flunkies was a no brainer.
As a result, I pretty much stopped all the piracy encounters, and just gave them a monthly stipend saying, "Yes, you caught X amount of ships, here is your monthly gold."
And sure I modified some encounters and added some rules to make things not completely ridiculous. But I buy APs so I don't have to do so much work, and not once in any of the books is it addresses countermeasures to PCs just chasing down dozens of ships and Fireballing them into helplessness for stupid amounts of funds.
Well 4th level spell vs 2nd level mooks...
A level 7 fighter could get himself catapulted onto the ship and solo it at that level too.
Well 4th level spell vs 2nd level mooks...
A level 7 fighter could get himself catapulted onto the ship and solo it at that level too.
The humorous bit is the chance of failure vs the auto success of the fireball.
"Oh no we catapulted our Fighter into the water."
*Fighter Drowns and/or gets assaulted by deadly water things*
What kind of Fighter doesn't have at least 1 rank in Swim?
What kind of Fighter doesn't have at least 1 rank in Swim?
One with 2+ skill points and some other priorities?
What kind of Fighter doesn't have at least 1 rank in Swim?One with 2+ skill points and some other priorities?
There are higher priorities than not dying?
Because not being able to swim when you spend 80% of your time on a boat is an...interesting choice to say the least.
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What kind of Fighter doesn't have at least 1 rank in Swim?One with 2+ skill points and some other priorities?There are higher priorities than not dying?
Because not being able to swim when you spend 80% of your time on a boat is an...interesting choice to say the least.
Sometimes you don't really think about it.
Of course a Ranger would have Swim, Perception, Favored Terrain(Aquatic) and so forth but hey! He does 5 less dpr or something insignificant like that.