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There is something to be said about the inability to ready actions outside of combat.
What you actually get is a surprise round that starts when the door opens. Whomever gets the higher initiative action acts first.
I'd suggest a roll for initiative for who reacts fastest..
And by the way, you can't do it outside of combat because Readying is a "special initiative action" that requires you to have an initiative score to be able to actually use. Since you don't have initiatives outside of combat, you can't ready an action outside of combat. The surprise round's entire purpose is things like the above scenario.
Option 2 is correct.
The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.
The action order is as follows:
Fighter
Wizard
Dragon
The fighter opens the door. This triggers the dragon's breath. The breath triggers the wizard's casting BEFORE the breath fires.
Option 2 is correct.
The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.The action order is as follows:
Fighter
Wizard
DragonThe fighter opens the door. This triggers the dragon's breath. The breath triggers the wizard's casting BEFORE the breath fires.
This.
Option 2, but only if neither side is surprised. Suspecting there might be a dragon on the other side of the door is not *knowing* there is a dragon on the other side of the door. If I'm delving a dungeon I suspect there is something bad on the other side of EVERY door. That won't keep me from being caught by surprise.
Option 2, but only if neither side is surprised. Suspecting there might be a dragon on the other side of the door is not *knowing* there is a dragon on the other side of the door. If I'm delving a dungeon I suspect there is something bad on the other side of EVERY door. That won't keep me from being caught by surprise.
Ummmm...yes it does. If you are expecting that there is something harmful on the other side of the door then you are ready to react accordingly when the door is open. So when you throw open the door and see the Orcs, Dragon or whatever you are not surprised.
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In that specific situation I would remind the Wizard that he can cast Wall of Force outside of initiative, before opening the door, should he suspect something bad to happen. And make sure the dragon rolls Perception checks to hear them on the other side of the door, with appropriate modifiers, so the dragon knows they are there (if there is, in fact, a dragon).
Option 2 is correct.
The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.The action order is as follows:
Fighter
Wizard
DragonThe fighter opens the door. This triggers the dragon's breath. The breath triggers the wizard's casting BEFORE the breath fires.
So the dragon prepares to breathe, and the wizard can cast a spell taking a move action before the dragon actually breathes? Pushing it, I think.
Ummmm...yes it does. If you are expecting that there is something harmful on the other side of the door then you are ready to react accordingly when the door is open. So when you throw open the door and see the Orcs, Dragon or whatever you are not surprised.Option 2, but only if neither side is surprised. Suspecting there might be a dragon on the other side of the door is not *knowing* there is a dragon on the other side of the door. If I'm delving a dungeon I suspect there is something bad on the other side of EVERY door. That won't keep me from being caught by surprise.
Would you allow a party wandering through a forest, suspicious there might be bandits behind every tree, bush, or rock to never be surprised simply because they state they are suspicious of each such location?
As I said, being suspicious doesn't prevent surprise. Doing due diligence with perception checks to listen at the door, or move slowly through the forest while scanning for possible bandits, those can prevent surprise with a good perception roll. But those things put you into the realm of knowing there is something there rather than simply being suspicious.
Sneaking into a dungeon that you know there are orcs in it, and opening a door to find orcs sitting around gambling isn't surprising to you. Opening that same door and finding ten orcs with bows drawn and pointing your direction will be (apparently they heard you cause you failed your stealth check). You aren't surprise there are orcs - you expected that. Your surprised that they knew you were there and were waiting for you.
The OP's example is similar to the orc example here. The party thinks there might be a dragon, but they think they could also be totally wrong. Finding a dragon isn't really surprising to them. Finding a dragon in the process of bathing the door in flames as they open it is. But if the dragon hadn't been there that wouldn't have been a surprise to them either - they were simply guessing it might be there. If they want to be cautious they need to listen at the door, or take preventive measures in case of dragons breath before opening the door.
Ummmm...yes it does. If you are expecting that there is something harmful on the other side of the door then you are ready to react accordingly when the door is open. So when you throw open the door and see the Orcs, Dragon or whatever you are not surprised.Option 2, but only if neither side is surprised. Suspecting there might be a dragon on the other side of the door is not *knowing* there is a dragon on the other side of the door. If I'm delving a dungeon I suspect there is something bad on the other side of EVERY door. That won't keep me from being caught by surprise.
Would you allow a party wandering through a forest, suspicious there might be bandits behind every tree, bush, or rock to never be surprised simply because they state they are suspicious of each such location?
As I said, being suspicious doesn't prevent surprise. Doing due diligence with perception checks to listen at the door, or move slowly through the forest while scanning for possible bandits, those can prevent surprise with a good perception roll. But those things put you into the realm of knowing there is something there rather than simply being suspicious.
Sneaking into a dungeon that you know there are orcs in it, and opening a door to find orcs sitting around gambling isn't surprising to you. Opening that same door and finding ten orcs with bows drawn and pointing your direction will be (apparently they heard you cause you failed your stealth check). You aren't surprise there are orcs - you expected that. Your surprised that they knew you were there and were waiting for you.
The OP's example is similar to the orc example here. The party thinks there might be a dragon, but they think they could also be totally wrong. Finding a dragon isn't really surprising to them. Finding a dragon in the process of bathing the door in flames as they open it is. But if the dragon hadn't been there that wouldn't have been a surprise to them either - they were...
First there is no difference between the players being suspicious of every rock and tree because they are afraid bandits might be there and creeping through the forest scanning for bandits behind every rock and tree. You are making a distinction without a difference.
Furthermore this entire thread is about a situation exactly like actively scanning for threats. The party in the OP is even ready to the point of the wizard preparing to cast a spell if they see a dragon. That is the context to which you were making the comment that just knowing something might be behind the door doesn't prevent them from being surprised. Again, yes it does.
If my party is chasing an enemy through a dungeon and they believe he went into a room and get ready to throw open the door and jump him they can't be surprised when it turns out that he is in the room just as they suspected but didn't know for sure. That would be utterly preposterous.
As for your Orc scenario that can be reflected in the initiative rolls. You were expecting trouble and are going to be reacting to trouble whatever form it may take. If you get the initiative on those 10 orcs with bows drawn and pointed right at you then because you were expecting some kind of trouble you manage to react appropriately. If you lose the initiative then you are caught flatfooted representing that at while you were prepared you weren't prepared for that exact threat and are unable to react fast enough. I personally would never give the Orcs a surprise round in such a situation and would be totally pissed at a GM who did if I was playing.
Just to bring some precisions:
The situation we faced yesterday occurred while we were already in combat(so on a round to round basis with initiative already rolled). We had met the dragon, and didn't have many exits, so we knew (or strongly suspected) he was on other side and wanted to prepared in case he hard a breath ready. Hence the question on how it would proceed.
But I see the merit of the discussion on something similar happening while outside of combat. So, from what I gather, it would appear that if:
a) in middle of combat, then case #2 (fighter-wizard -dragon) like Murphy explained would apply.
b)outside of combat, then initiative has to be rolled (determine surprise)and proceed from there
Thoughts??
This sums it up nicely on how to handle it pretty much in a nutshell.
So isn't the dragon breathing while the door is still closed? And the wizard casting while the door is closed as well?
Wizard casts, Dragon breathes, and then the door opens....seems like a horrible waste of actions...
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Just have the rogue slap the cleric. Now you have a combat, roll initiative and can have the wizard ready an action.
Poor dragon, he hasn't been asked to roll initiative, so he can't roll initiative.
</sarcasm>
I think it's ridiculous that you couldn't ready actions outside combat, if everyone is treating the situation as it is practically a combat already. If the party thinks the dragon might be behind this door, it's not so strange for them to ready some actions in case it really is.
And when the party is trying to be "always on alert" - they can do that, but eventually it gets wearying. For example, if you want to ready an action every round (Standard), you only have a Move left to move through the forest. You're basically Hustling, so after an hour you become fatigued.
So the party CAN travel ultra-cautious if it seems necessary, but it's very tiring. It may still be worth it to get through particularly dangerous sections.
I don't feel it should require the monster to be present to enter into initiative. Technically, time never stops ticking when you exit initiative, it's a time saving measure to do so when there is no specific reason for accurate time-keeping. I feel if the players choose, they should be able to enter into initiative at any time. The Dragon entering into the arena when the door is opened should be treated just as a newcomer to the encounter, and roll initiative at that time. As far as the dragon 'readying his breath to go on the door opening', to me that would depend on what made him suspect it was about to open. Readying a spell in combat rounds means you essentially do all the casting but the last step, and pause there until the condition occurs. Normally, a readied action is executed within the same round (6 seconds). I find it hard to accept that a dragon is sitting there facing the door for an indeterminate time with his breath weapon primed unless he has a true idea they are about to enter. Even a dragon woudn't have that kind of focus.
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So isn't the dragon breathing while the door is still closed? And the wizard casting while the door is closed as well?
Wizard casts, Dragon breathes, and then the door opens....seems like a horrible waste of actions...
You know, strictly as-written... Yeah. I think so. And that is sort of Deeply Problematic.
There's a sort of global causality problem in Pathfinder. We want readied actions to be able to interrupt spells, so they're defined as going off first, but often that means that there is no reason whatsoever for you to take the action, because the thing which would have caused you to take it can't even happen.
In the case of a spell, what we really imagine happening is "you start casting the spell and then you are interrupted before it completes". But for other actions, it makes no sense.
Yeah, people tout the "The action occurs just before the action that triggers it" line all the time, but then the examples of Readied actions in the rules don't work.
Setting a weapon wouldn't work, since your attack happens before the charge, and thus you can't reach the opponent.
Distracting a spellcaster wouldn't work, since he hasn't started casting the spell yet.
So obviously Readied actions should be able to interrupt an action already started before it is completed. It resolves before the trigger, but it doesn't occur before the trigger.
People all the time use the example you can't ready a trip for when an opponent stands up, since the action will happen before he stands, and thus still prone. But that doesn't make sense, you should be able to interrupt his action and trip him right after he has stood up.
For the OP's situation, I don't see a problem with the Wizard readying to cast the wall.
Dragon: Readies to breath
Wizard: Readies to cast
Fighter: Opens door
Dragon: After door starts to open, but before it completes, Breaths
Wizard: After Dragon starts to breath, but before it completes, casts.
Wall is in place
Breath hits wall
Door completes opening
First there is no difference between the players being suspicious of every rock and tree because they are afraid bandits might be there and creeping through the forest scanning for bandits behind every rock and tree. You are making a distinction without a difference.
You don't see a important distinction between walking through the forest and mentally going "Hmm, there could be a bandit behind that tree, or maybe that one over there. Or one in that bush." compared to actually moving carefully over to each tree and bush and checking it? Or moving slowly and actively scanning your surroundings every ten steps?
First there is no difference between the players being suspicious of every rock and tree because they are afraid bandits might be there and creeping through the forest scanning for bandits behind every rock and tree. You are making a distinction without a difference.You don't see a important distinction between walking through the forest and mentally going "Hmm, there could be a bandit behind that tree, or maybe that one over there. Or one in that bush." compared to actually moving carefully over to each tree and bush and checking it? Or moving slowly and actively scanning your surroundings every ten steps?
Yes I do see a distinction there but you keep equivocating the meaning of being suspicious or expecting trouble. You began with an example of players being suspicious when they know a dungeon is full of orcs and fully suspecting that there are orcs behind a door. Then it went to players being suspicious by suspecting there might be a bandit behind each tree, rock or bush. Now we are down to players casually thinking about bandits as they walk through the forest.
Yes there is a difference between players casually walking through a forest and thinking "Man it is a beautiful day. Hey that cloud looks like a bunny rabbit. Those gardenias over there sure smell nice. I wonder if there are any bandits in this forest maybe behind a tree or rock like that one or that one over there." and the same players walking through the forest thinking "Ok stay alert for bandits. One could jump out from behind any tree or rock any second now."
The first example the characters are NOT acting suspicious of bandits and can be surprised but that isn't what we have been talking about. In the second example the characters are not moving slowly nor are they going over and checking each rock and bush but they are keeping their weapons at the ready, they are maintaining situational awareness, and are prepared if trouble does pop up. They would not be surprised if bandits dropped out of the trees even though they didn't know exactly where the bandits were.
It seems, despite RAW, that a GM needs to distinguish between conditions (and hence actions) that are able to be interrupted and those that are not.
For example, the Dragon deciding to breath fire as soon as the door begins to open is a condition that can interrupt an action, hence it would occur before the door was open (and also prevent the Wizard from using his readied action, since he would not be able to perceive the trigger for his readied action, downside would be of course, he is breathing fire against a door, not his enemies (although other actions would be more effective). If instead, the Dragon wanted to breathe fire when the door was fully open, that condition wouldn't create an interruptable action, because the condition wouldn't apply until the door was fully open. The Dragon would breathe into the open doorway, the wizard would cast and the wall of force would block off the now open doorway.
Yes I do see a distinction there but you keep equivocating the meaning of being suspicious or expecting trouble. You began with an example of players being suspicious when they know a dungeon is full of orcs and fully suspecting that there are orcs behind a door. Then it went to players being suspicious by suspecting there might be a bandit behind each tree, rock or bush. Now we are down to players casually thinking about bandits as they walk through the forest...
Its not a case of me equivocating, its a case of you misunderstanding and adding conditions to the scenario that were not stipulated.
My forest scenario was this (nothing more and nothing less)
Would you allow a party wandering through a forest, suspicious there might be bandits behind every tree, bush, or rock to never be surprised simply because they state they are suspicious of each such location?
I even further clarified it with
Doing due diligence ... move slowly through the forest while scanning for possible bandits, those can prevent surprise with a good perception roll.
Now all that aside, lets assume the party is actively searching for threats. Guess what happens if they fail a perception check? They get surprised. As I've stated, simply being suspicious is not sufficient to prevent being surprised. In fact, actively searching for threats also is no guarantee you won't be surprised. Successfully making your perception check is what will prevent the surprise.
Now the OP's scenario has since been clarified to indicate they had been engaged with the dragon a few moments before. That is an entirely different scenario than the original post indicated. Given the description given by Cuttler it sounds like they should have still been playing in combat rounds. No surprise round, run readied actions as indicated.