Hello, Paizo!
I'm in the process of creating a homebrew campaign setting, based in the world of a novel I'm writing. When working out the world details, I came to the topic of deities. At first, I had five or six, but I decided to try and fill it out a little more (using alignments as a guide).
Right now, I've got nine major deities (one for each of the Lawful-Chaotic-Good-Evil alignments) and two minor deities (both true neutral). I feel like I should add a couple more, to fill in some niches that I didn't quite fill with the main nine, but what do you all think?
What do you think is a good number of deities?
(Also, I'd be happy to provide short write-ups for the deities I've come up with so far if anyone would be interested in reading them.)
I like the idea of making the deities you want to include and then asking players what they want. Even if you don't end up with just the right amount, you ended up with the ones you needed and you can always add later.
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The honest (but unhelpful) answer is: However many it takes to tell the story you want to tell.
I have been working on a setting that I sure hope to get to use one of these days in which there are a huge number of "gods." (The current number that I think sounds like a good number being 144.) I chose to do it this way because I wanted my players to get to make up exactly the deity they envisioned following. I'd much rather have the setting serve my players than vice versa.
When I actually set out to write my own pantheon for other homebrew settings though, I tend to favor smaller pantheons. I don't want to design a deity that I'm not excited about just to reach an arbitrary quota. A deity should be compelling for storytelling and inspiring for players. If it's gonna be lackluster, why have it? There's no rule that you need a deity for every alignment. Or every element. Etc. Write what makes you excited.
Since you asked for a number, I would say that I, personally, would aim for a number that has significance, like 7 or 13. These are numbers commonly associated with mystical ideas. Good luck. If you wanted to post your deities, I'd certainly read them.
I would suggest a Minimum of 9, 1 per alignment. (Tho this is not required, if your setting conceptualizes differently.)
Example:
If you make all deities on the neutral axis, (NG/CN/NE/LN) then any alignment is within one step of the 4.
I would suggest a Minimum of 9, 1 per alignment. (Tho this is not required, if your setting conceptualizes differently.)
Example:
If you make all deities on the neutral axis, (NG/CN/NE/LN) then any alignment is within one step of the 4.
Of course, if your the GM you could just throw out the alignment rules entirely and if you felt you had to have a deity for every cleric then you would have to make a deity for every domain and subdomain out there. Might be easier to find a middle ground.
Having to base it around alignment would be anti-narrative imo. Much less attaching alignment to a god when sometimes their own ideals might fit several.
Of course, if your the GM you could just throw out the alignment rules entirely and if you felt you had to have a deity for every cleric then you would have to make a deity for every domain and subdomain out there. Might be easier to find a middle ground.
Having to base it around alignment would be anti-narrative imo. Much less attaching alignment to a god when sometimes their own ideals might fit several.
I happen to be one of the (minority?) that likes the alignment system (though I don't use alignment as a restraint- your actions are what they are, your alignment is just how you justify your actions). I also like the idea of one god per alignment (possibly plus some extras), because in the world I'm building, the gods are defined by their myths, so in a way it's like they're personifications of how the people view their ideals. So it makes perfect sense, to me, for there to be a Lawful Good god (who exemplifies that alignment) and a Neutral Evil god, and so on.
I am at this point in my homebrew setting as well. I know there are a number of saints that the humans this side of the blue orb worship, and the ki arts are definitely their own religion (as understood by the mountain monks). The deities are going to be very far back in the distance, mainly because I am less interested in cultists.
The gods of the monsters may be more immediate, more pagan, more in your face with the temples and statues but the humans are far more attached to ideals and heroic figures (Greek with less emphasis on the gods?), the philosophies and beliefs behind domains, or nature (for the un-assimilated druidic enclaves). Nature worship doesn't need a single god, or a court of them.
So my answer, is almost none. You can replace gods with great immortal heroes, you can have domain clergy instead of gods, and the gods that do exist could be the slumbering terrifying gods of sahuaghin, trolls, centaurs and assweres. Yes, do NOT wake the asswere god.
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Gods for alignment are silly. I suggest gods like:
Os: god of men and demons (the word for demon ansu refering not to fiends in a d&d term, but primitive giant humans like cave men and likansu which evolves into the word lycanthrope).
Alignment would be irrelevant.
I remember Loki in an issue of x-men. Where he is a god of the aesir, he petitions to more powerful gods refered to as 'those who sit above in darkness'.
Imagine a pantheon. Now imagine a council of other older more powerful gods who watch that pantheon. So there in the darkness above are beings who govern alignment and require regular gods like the aesir to conduct them selves appropriately and when they anger one alignment governing god by doing too much of a particular behavior they are compelled to reign in.
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I removed the gods entirely, as well as alignments. Now there is only one god (of humanity) - Mitra - and he is banned from interference in the daily lives of his followers. That means that the church is corrupted, there is only a small number of priests (clerics), almost no paladins and healing magic is left to channelers (replacement for all spellcasting classes).
On the other hand, I introduced a number of spirits, ascended mortals with limited power - saints - and cults of demon lords, all of which can grant different boons and spells to their followers. Of course, they are mostly persecuted by the Church of Mitra.
My point is that the number of gods in your pantheon depends solely on the type of story you want to tell. My world is now far grimmer than it was before, and that is reflected in my decision to remove alignments and allow greater degree of corruption and moral bankruptcy than possible if LG greater god was able to influence events.
I currently have 16 deities in my setting.
Lawful Good
Asclepius - god of healing, good reptilians
Selene - goddess of the Moon, laws, good shapeshifters, tides
Neutral Good
Helios - god of valor, honor, the Sun
Hestia - goddess of the home, protection, families, farming
Chaotic Good
Minerva - Goddess of art, magic, warfare
Lawful Neutral
Hephaestus - God of craftsmen
Thanatos - God of Death, order, time
Neutral
Artemis - Goddess of nature, natural order, animals, plants
The Fount - the source of all magic, not a deity but a force, worshipers join with it in the afterlife
Chaotic Neutral
Fortuna - Goddess of luck, thievery
Heracles - God of athletics, brawling
Lawful Evil
Cronus - God of domination
Neutral Evil
Atropos - Goddess of murder, undead
Typhon - God of storms, aberrations
Chaotic Evil
Arachne - Goddess of spiders, evil shapeshifters, evil artists
Ares - God of slaughter and warfare
One is enough. Look at how many real world monotheisms there are. It has the advantage of simplicity and is easy for the players to understand. It also gives an interesting non generic Celtic fantasy feeling to the campaign.
But it's definitely different than standard PF.
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I had nine gods-
LG God of Light favouring humans
NG Goddess of Water favouring merfolk
CG Goddess of Life favouring elves
LN God of Earth favouring dwarves
NN God of Magic favouring gnomes
CN God of Air favouring halflings
LE Goddess of Death favouring undead
NE God of Fire favouring orcs
CE Goddess of Darkness favouring drow.
All was in balance and opposition.
Light Water Life
Earth Magic Air
Death Fire Darkness
Over the campaign the players discovered 4 old gods, parents of the current pantheon.
NG God of the North - Metallic Dragons
LN God of the West - Crystal Dragons
CN Goddess of the East - Dragon Kin
NE Goddess of the South - Chromatic Dragons
To help players familiarise themselves and recognise the pantheon, I named them after the Greyhawk gods, except for water.
Pelor, Eldath, Ehlonna, Moraddin, Boccob, Olidammara, Wee Jas, Gruumsh and Llolth. Old gods were Bahamut, Falazure, Aasterinian, and Tiamat- stolen from the dragon gods in 2nd Ed D&D.
I also had the original 1 god, Io, also stolen from the Monster Mythology who somehow created the four dragon gods.
I later discovered "The Twelve" from the Dragonstar campaign setting, which mirrored mine quite nicely.
The Father, The Mother, The Lover, The Smith, The Magus, The Stormlord, The Reaper, The Warrior and The Trickster. (The last three, the Merchant, the Destroyer and the Judge I kinda dumped under the Magus, the Trickster and the Father respectively.)
PELOR
Warrior of Light, The Shining One, Lord of the Sun
Lawful Good God of Light
Domains: Good, Law, Sun, War
Favoured Weapon: Mace
ELDATH
Lady of the Lake, Goddess of the Singing Waters, The Healer
Neutral Good Goddess of Water
Domains: Good, Healing, Protection, Water
Favoured Weapon: Net
EHLONNA
Mother of Life, Ehlonna of the Forests, Goddess of the Woodlands
Chaotic Good Goddess of Life
Domains: Animal, Healing, Knowledge, Plant
Favoured Weapon: Longsword
MORADIN
Stonefather, King of the Mountain, Lord of Might
Lawful Neutral God of Earth
Domains: Earth, Law, Protection, Strength
Favoured Weapon: Warhammer
BOCCOB
Lord of All Magics, Keeper of Wisdom, Sage of the Gods
Pure Neutral God of Magic
Domains: Knowledge, Luck, Magic, Trickery
Favoured Weapon: Quarterstaff
OLIDAMMARA
Master of the Four Winds, The Eternal Wanderer, The Laughing Rogue
Chaotic Neutral God of Air
Domains: Air, Chaos, Luck, Travel
Favoured Weapon: Shortsword
WEE JAS
Queen of the Dead, Collector of Souls, Lady of Sorrow
Lawful Evil Goddess of Death
Domains: Death, Destruction, Magic, Trickery
Favoured Weapon: Dagger
GRUUMSH
Lord of Flames, The Slayer, God of Battle
Neutral Evil God of Fire
Domains: Evil, Strength, Fire, War
Favoured Weapon: Spear
LOLTH
The Dark Queen, Mistress of Poison, Lady of Shadows
Chaotic Evil Goddess of Darkness
Domains: Chaos, Death, Destruction, Evil
Favoured Weapon: Whip
Gods for alignment are silly. I suggest gods like:
Os: god of men and demons (the word for demon ansu refering not to fiends in a d&d term, but primitive giant humans like cave men and likansu which evolves into the word lycanthrope).
Alignment would be irrelevant.
I remember Loki in an issue of x-men. Where he is a god of the aesir, he petitions to more powerful gods refered to as 'those who sit above in darkness'.
Imagine a pantheon. Now imagine a council of other older more powerful gods who watch that pantheon. So there in the darkness above are beings who govern alignment and require regular gods like the aesir to conduct them selves appropriately and when they anger one alignment governing god by doing too much of a particular behavior they are compelled to reign in.
In creating divinity for a game, you can escape patriarchal models and village council arrangements. Don't need the council of old men. Don't have to copy the Greeks and their messed up families model either.
Anyone ever notice the pathfinder gods are petty and unenlightened? What are their mental stats again?
I removed the gods entirely, as well as alignments. Now there is only one god (of humanity) - Mitra - and he is banned from interference in the daily lives of his followers. That means that the church is corrupted, there is only a small number of priests (clerics), almost no paladins and healing magic is left to channelers (replacement for all spellcasting classes).
On the other hand, I introduced a number of spirits, ascended mortals with limited power - saints - and cults of demon lords, all of which can grant different boons and spells to their followers. Of course, they are mostly persecuted by the Church of Mitra.
My point is that the number of gods in your pantheon depends solely on the type of story you want to tell. My world is now far grimmer than it was before, and that is reflected in my decision to remove alignments and allow greater degree of corruption and moral bankruptcy than possible if LG greater god was able to influence events.
Good point on the story influence. My faiths reinforce the story and themes, but by not getting into tyranny or corruption of the churches (for once), my setting doesn't get any more grimmer.
The monsters trying to wipe out humans already make it grim enough.
I especially love the concept of putting magic and warfare under a single deity. I like seeing some stuff that isn't the fantasy standard. Especially when it isn't connected to a need to make sure nothing is a fantasy standard.
I didn't go super out of my way to do it, but I've been trying to make everything about this campaign setting (and the novel it's based on) non-standard, except when it's lampshading the stereotypes of the standard.
Yes, making a novel setting is a great motivator.
The honest (but unhelpful) answer is: However many it takes to tell the story you want to tell.
This.
You can have just one deity (or two, if you want to use a central dichotomy in your cosmology/mythology), possibly with different orders/sects that emphasize different parts of the portfolio(s). Clerics (and possibly druids, depending on the cosmology/deity in question; if using Pathfinder, inquisitors as well, while oracles don't) must worship a/the deity; paladins and/or rangers can either be non-spellcasting variants (archetypes in Pathfinder) or possibly the prestige class versions from D&D 3.5's Unearthed Arcana (available on the d20 SRD).
Alternately, you can limit the number of deities to a single small pantheon, possibly one based on real-world myth (or possibly two competing pantheons, perhaps based on Law vs. Chaos), and allow the celestials and fiends to grant certain boons (probably based on prestige classes) that mimic some divine spellcasting and/or grant spells to the adept NPC class. The 3.5 Book of Vile Darkness and Book of Exalted Deeds has some material that can be mined for ideas (as does the Pathfinder Campaign Setting Lords of Darkness books and Chronicle of the Righteous).
Or you can allow clerics to worship celestials and fiends as well as (or even instead of) deities. A possible variant has a nature deity worshiped by druids and rangers, while clerics and paladins worship celestials or fiends; good for a lot of conflict between religions.
Basically, don't feel like you "have" to have deities for each of the alignments. Clerics can worship a deity as long as they are within one "step" of their deity's alignment; so the absolute minimum number of deities to have clerics of every alignment is three: one each of CN, LN, and TN or one each of NE, NG, and TN.
if using Pathfinder... must worship a/the deity
Actually you don't have to worship a deity to get your powers. You can use ideals too. "Well I want to worship a guy who is really into courage and preaching about that, so I want these domains and this weapon to represent that!" Lots of ways to go about it with houserules too. I've used anywhere between none, 1, 10, and 108 deities at a given time of my own creation when building a setting.
if using Pathfinder... must worship a/the deityActually you don't have to worship a deity to get your powers. You can use ideals too. "Well I want to worship a guy who is really into courage and preaching about that, so I want these domains and this weapon to represent that!" Lots of ways to go about it with houserules too. I've used anywhere between none, 1, 10, and 108 deities at a given time of my own creation when building a setting.
Again, it depends on the cosmology. Personally, I've never been a big fan of the "cleric without a deity" work-around. If using Pathfinder, I'd just say "clerics must worship a deity; if you don't want to deal with a deity, play an oracle."
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That may be a monotheistic attitude influencing you thought. There are plenty of nature religions, spirit worship (kami) or the religious adherence to ideals and codes of conduct and avoiding following a single god (i.e. this is the one god I follow, I don't follow any but him). We find this in the real world, but it is often overshadowed by the major monotheist religions, so it can be in a new setting or absent.
Polytheism, instead of worshipping just one god was extremely common as well and remains so in Africa. Dragonchess players position is right, according to pathfinder canon. Jacobs came down against polytheist and domain clerics (other contributors did not initially have the same views), setting the course for pf.
However, as a setting designer you are not at all bound by what anyone says or any other setting. It is pure creation, you can be original and no one can tell you what to do. I suggest you go nuts.
Polytheism, instead of worshipping just one god was extremely common as well and remains so in Africa. Dragonchess players position is right, according to pathfinder canon. Jacobs came down against polytheist and domain clerics (other contributors did not initially have the same views), setting the course for pf.However, as a setting designer you are not at all bound by what anyone says or any other setting. It is pure creation, you can be original and no one can tell you what to do. I suggest you go nuts.
^^ This. One of the best parts I find about unique settings is how they introduce their own flavor differences from the core rules. Clerics could all be based around a single god, or worship entire pantheons without choosing a favorite, or go for concepts rather than gods. Dwarves might live above ground and receive some other bonuses in place of darkvision and stonecunning.
Obviously, ensure your players know all this before they go and make their characters ;)
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Polytheism, instead of worshipping just one god was extremely common as well and remains so in Africa. Dragonchess players position is right, according to pathfinder canon. Jacobs came down against polytheist and domain clerics (other contributors did not initially have the same views), setting the course for pf.However, as a setting designer you are not at all bound by what anyone says or any other setting. It is pure creation, you can be original and no one can tell you what to do. I suggest you go nuts.
^^ This. One of the best parts I find about unique settings is how they introduce their own flavor differences from the core rules. Clerics could all be based around a single god, or worship entire pantheons without choosing a favorite, or go for concepts rather than gods. Dwarves might live above ground and receive some other bonuses in place of darkvision and stonecunning.
Obviously, ensure your players know all this before they go and make their characters ;)
Cheers.
How I am conceiving of it at the moment for my setting, is that the core group of humanity the players come from, has a small pantheon of saints and a series of domains and ideals that guide the spiritual life of the empire more generally. This also relates to magic in that one of the saints is the patron of healing, but another is the patron saint of undying--a variant necromancy I am playing with that aims to keep its practitioners moored to this plane and capable of acting (and furthering the survival of humans against monsters and the many enemies, even if they die (dying is not recommended, you lose a great deal by dying but you may not initially realise this). So the general thrust of the faith is closest probably to Abadar and for civilisation and the expansion of city, commerce and order, but it gets far more complicated than that, and even necromancy has been bent to serve these lawful ideals.
The situation is made more complex but druidism being still around. Yet it is not always in conflict with the Abadar-esque religion as the central faith also finds its limitations assimilating the cultures and peoples of the periphery with their own minor religions still continuing on. Some of these domains can get pretty odd given the larger religion, but here you get martial spiritual beliefs, chaos.
Speaking on chaos and its opposite, ki usage is a religion for an entire (small) region, and the take on law, balance and a community of personal development is leading to secessionist ideas being whispered amongst the monks and ninjas.
Other human civilisations adhere to polytheism over monotheism with each domain coming under the purview of multiple gods, and each of the gods certainly not a greater major being, but still capable of manipulating humans and taking some power from them.
The most monotheistic religious elements are actually the monsters and their civilisations. The Sahuaghin have their deep god of blood and sacrifice, the merfolk are near monotheistic, the ogres and trolls have ancestor worship and monotheism and others worship primal chaos, the cult of youth and children (yeah that small civ is strange) or a spirit of conflagration (fire burns clean, and competitive destruction is a worthy goal in life).
Making things different, going nuts, having fun.
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Rather than trying to come up with a deity/minor deity for every niche you can think of, what about this:
Have just a couple deities of major, plot important religions already made, and if your players want something more "niche-y"... why not let them come up with their own to add to the pantheon?
You'll end up making your players happy by giving them autonomy over the setting as well as end up with a diverse pantheon you couldn't have come up with on your own.
In the old homebrew campaign setting my college roommate and I put together, (originally written for AD&D 1st ed), we had four major gods for the human lands, each of the "extreme" alignments:
Dior, God of Justice and Civilization (LG)
Selena, Goddess of Magic (LE)
Corrynthe, Goddess of Dreams and Freedom (CG)
Steltor, God of Wealth (CE)
There was also the Spirit of Nature, a non-personified Neutral divine source worshipped by druids.
The elves were mostly monotheistic. Their god was The Unicorn (CG)
The dwarves were also mostly montheistic. Their god was The Forge-Father (LG)
And that was about it!
We did write a few minor gods as needed, like Ssranthiss, Lord of Serpents. (Followers: "Yes, he's a snake god, but he's a NICE snake god!")
We also encouraged players to design cults of other, lesser gods. Most took us up on that, and designed the god they wanted their PC to follow. (Subject to DM approval and editing, of course.)
One of my default methods is to take the major arcana from the Tarot and create deities off of them.
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One of the many campaign ideas I have has a spiritual system inspired by athroposophy[1].
There are two superior beings. One is Lucifer, who embodies light, insight, and spirituality; and the other is Ahriman, who embodies darkness, intellectualism, and physicality.
They're both evil. The good path is the path between them.
[1] Actual anthroposophy is more complicated than this.
A followup post by myself with a bit more time on my hands.
When i 'myself' made my own campaign world from scratch years ago, (back in the yonder days of 2nd edition) I overcomplicated things to a silly degree.
I took the 9 Alignments, and then deceided that i wanted 1 Greater Power, 2 Intermediate Powers, and 3 Lesser Powers for each of them. (I also had for Demipowers in each) I then went through and flagged ones as 'forgotten, yet still existing', 'supposedly dead', and other such criteria. I ended up with a pretty hefty chapter once i added notes of which of the Powers were allied with whom, and who was strong opponents of whom, etc. Nowadays i don't think that degree of depth is necessary to have.
...i MAY have been a little OCD on it back then...perhaps.
That may be a monotheistic attitude influencing you thought.
Not so much, really (mostly agnostic). Mainly, it's my sense of cosmological/narrative cohesion in relation to historical and fictional pantheism (as opposed to animism), as well as for game balance and setting consistency reasons.
Culturally, the worship of several deities is pretty common; however, individual priests are almost always dedicated to one of those deities. Sure, they'd honor other deities in the pantheon where appropriate (i.e., a priest of Athena would make an offering to Poseidon before a sea journey, even though Athena and Poseidon were rivals), but their focus is on the one they serve. The cleric is based off of this idea, as well as various medieval Christian orders in earlier iterations.
Animism is a different structure in that spirits and "small gods" are intrinsic in pretty much everything. Instead of having a smaller number of "concentrated" deities dealing with "all mountains," "all rivers," "all trees," etc., each individual mountain, river, tree, etc. has its own spirit. Generally, druids are a better fit for animism (urban druid, with it's focus on communities instead of "pure nature," does an even better job); the 3.5 spirit shaman is even closer in concept; pathfinder oracles can also work for more "focused" animism (such as ancestor worship, death as a concept/more general spirits of the dead, etc.).
On the game balance and setting consistency front, I generally see combinations of three main reasons for a player to want a "cleric who doesn't worship a deity" (note that these aren't necessarily mutually exclusive):
1) The player wants to worship a "deity" that isn't part of the setting. For example, the player wants to worship a sun deity like Apollo instead of Sarenrae; in many cases, there is a "close enough" deity for the setting that allows the player something similar.
2) The player wants a specific mechanical benefit/combo. For example, a cleric with the Growth sub-domain and Travel domain, negative energy channeling for Channel Smite, and a "good" favored weapon (scimitar, falchion, etc.; possibly even falcata) for Guided Hand. This one can be more problematical with a player that doesn't "buy into" the setting, but can sometimes be a boon for expanding the setting if the player is willing to come up with most of the details for the deity and religion in question.
3) The player wants to play a cleric without needing their character to follow a particular creed or deal with behavior restrictions from a religious organization or deity (enforced by social sanction and/or even loss of class abilities). At which point, you have to ask why they are playing a cleric in the first place, if they can't role-play a class that is pretty much defined as a devout worshiper.
At which point, you have to ask why they are playing a cleric in the first place, if they can't role-play a class that is pretty much defined as a devout worshiper.
Well, its highly possible they can, and the mechanics fit what they want, or that they aren't interested in any of the given options for worship in the setting. I've been in plenty of settings where I don't like any of my options for worship or have no interest in roleplaying them.
At which point, you have to ask why they are playing a cleric in the first place, if they can't role-play a class that is pretty much defined as a devout worshiper.Well, its highly possible they can, and the mechanics fit what they want, or that they aren't interested in any of the given options for worship in the setting. I've been in plenty of settings where I don't like any of my options for worship or have no interest in roleplaying them.
See 2). If they are willing to detail the deity (history, personality, portfolio, etc.) and associated religion (attitudes, dogma, trappings, etc.) so that it fits in the setting, then I'm much more likely to allow it; the GM doesn't have all the good ideas, after all. However, sometimes the setting cosmology has hard restrictions in place for specific narrative reasons and a player should take that into account when creating a character; not all characters are appropriate for all settings.
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Murderhobos only need two gods: Healy, god of healing, and Beaty, god of smashing face.
You forgot Crity, god of damage and multiplication.