We're gearing up to play the Way of the Wicked adventure path and all the other players decided to play the character concepts they've always wanted to but never could. (Lawful Barbarian that's basically a Predator, and an Assassin) So I decided to do the same, I've always wanted to play a Dragon Disciple, but I've just never gotten around to it.
Originally this character was going to be an Antipaladin and I had his background written out pretty well. His dad was taken as a lover by an angel, she left him and he found a baby on his doorstep one day. He later took a mortal as a wife and his village saw this as him rejecting the holy touch he was offered. They decided his wife must have bewitched him and in a terrible riot the baby, now a boy watched his family murdered by the mob. The villager's left him alive because he was a celestial being of course. He ran to the authorities; however, it was ruled that the killing was just when it was discovered among his parents things that they had books and objects of worship for deities other than Mitra. The boy grew to hate the estabilishment that day and spent his life working against it. Eventually he found himself in a jail cell for preaching against the church.
I am thinking to fit the Dragon Disciple into this I may say that the deity his parents were worshipping was some kind of dragon god and since I like the original background and don't really want to change it too much it works for me.
WotW is 25 point buy so I was thinking (using Angel-blooded Aasimar as the race):
STR 18
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 18
Now I am having a tough time with how many levels of different classes to consider, I want a Dragon Disciple who can both cast his spells and mix it up in melee easily. My GM has ruled that I can use my natural attacks granted by DD indefinitely as long as I use a swift action to form them, so I don't require natural attacks from my classes.
I was thinking maybe Antipaladin 2/Sorcerer 3/DD 10
The antipaladin 2 gives me CHA to saves, detect good and a smite good and makes the first few levels easier to survive. Of course I won't even reach 8th level spells this way. What do you guys think?
Aside from that, which feats are good for natural weapon attackers?
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AP 4, Bard 1, DD 4, Rest AP imo.
It's certainly more melee focused, but it avoids the casting in armour issue nicely since many bard spells are V components only which ignores arcane spell failure for armour.
Also, Bard?! I hear you cry out in anguish. Sure. Archaeologist archetype and Fates favoured trait along with Lingering Performance will allow you to have +2 to virtually everything all day long, which really stacks well with multiple natural attacks. Also, Saving Finale! Which with Cha to saves means you essentially never ever fail a saving throw again (you'd also have access to 2nd level Bard spells which have some great ones on the list).
What this build does is make you a great melee combatant, a low power but incredibly useful spell caster who is virtually immune to anything requiring a save and it lets you have tons of diplomacy and knowledge skills... all the better with which to convince others of the rightness of your path and turn them to your side!
As RenegadeShep says, Dragon Style and Eldritch heritage (orc or abyssal) are both excellent additions to this build.
If you prefer a more balanced build I'd still suggest AP 4 to start as this gets you an extra Smite and access to AP spells. So AP 4/Sorc 1/DD 4/Rest Sorc. You'll hit 5th level spells and still have strong melee to back it up, but you'll also have a far greater problem casting whilst in armour, so bear that in mind.
I was hoping to make a strong melee combatant who happens to be good at buffing himself and his allies or maybe using the occasional blasting spell when the situation requires it. I can see why DD4 is good as the higher level stuff isn't quite as useful. Would only getting second level Bard spells really be all that useful?
As far as stats go, if Way of the Wicked works out then the campaign ends at 20th level.
Also, would the Bard's class skills really be all the useful considering that I would be getting very few skill points per level? Then again a point in each knowledge skill with the class skill bonus would be very useful. And I do think Bard would fit my character's background a lot better than Sorcerer.
You should check out Oterisk's Guide to DD in the Advice Forums. While it does not hold information on Antipaladin (afaik) it talks about all kinds of combinations (including paladin/sorc/dd); and bard as "chassis".
Concerning spells: they progress with your DD advancement.
Concerning skill points: the bard has a lot of class skills, thus only getting one point to add another 3 from class skills is quite nice.
Ruyan.
The other thing you can do, if you feel like being slightly cheesy but strong, with some good flavor is:
Bloodrager 4 (Abyssal or celestial Bloodline)
Dragon Disciple X
Anti-Palain 2 (Adding Cha to saves and 1/day smite is nice though)
also grab Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal) for even more fun.
The reason it works is because TECHNICALLY, bloodrage is not a bloodline as per the Sorcerer, so you do not need to be dragonic. Having the Abyssal bloodline gives you some nice flavor if you want to be demontouched as well and it lets you grow one size catagory when raging (as per enlarge person, even if not humanoid). You can also go Celestial to match with your Aasimar race. Being Celestial does have a funny little thing though. At level 1, all your melee attacks are automatically considered Good-aligned for purposes of by-passing DR... regardless of your actual alignment. So as an Evil Character with the celestial bloodline, you can actually have a Good Evil weapon... because screw you lol.
Additionally, going this route gives you the ability to rage, which is nice to cover the slightly loss in BAB due to DD and gives you a nice boost in physical damage. The reason you grab Eldritch Heritage and Improved Eldritch Heritage Abyssal is to get the very nice Str boost to your guy. Since it is an Inherent bonus, it stacks with your item boosts and your boosts due to size changes.
Since your not really a caster due to being a melee guy, the bloodrager's spell list is actually good for you. The spell list is primarily all buff spells or control spells, letting you force the guy into range of your attacks.
Oh!
The Bloodrager can be found here:
ACG Playtest
And yes, it is Paizo material so don't have to worry about the whole "3rd party stigma" that alot of GMs have.
Playing a Ranger 2 /Sorc (Dragon bloodline) 3 / DD 3 for PFS play
I've turned him into a tank. At level 8, my base AC is 27. If I can get shield cast it goes up to 31.
I've found there's a trade off between attack bonus and spell casting. More levels in a fighter type class you have better BAB but less spell casting.
More levels in Sorc and you lose BAB, but gain spells.
You will never be able to go toe-to-toe as a spell caster with a full caster, but you can still do some damage / buffing with your spells, if you use them in the right situations.
What I find tough is overcoming SR, as my caster level will always lag behind the caster level needed to overcome the CR of the creature being fought.
If you are patient, the stat boosts to strength means you do not need to put as much into strength as with a full fighter build and you can still be effective.
A starting strength of 16, for example, will still be effective and frees up points for other stats, like Dex or Wis, that can come in handy when making saving throws.
All the options open to me have only made it harder for me to decide what to do. I am really liking the idea of the Bard opening up my skills though, since the rest of the party is light on those. And Eldritch Heritage seems perfect for getting the strength boost from the Abyssal Bloodline without having to go Sorcerer, though it certainly makes my character a mut and a half with his celestial/abyssal/draconic mix.
But even if I do go Bard I am not certain how I would like to spread out the levels in such a case. I could manage sixth level spells I suppose and still get a couple levels in Antipaladin while taking 4 levels in DD. Or I could go more Antipaladin focused and miss out on most of the Bard spells... Also, Bard archetypes? Which do you guys think would be good?
Personally I Think DD works best with Anti Pally 3/Dragonic Sorcerer 2. DD X with a Robe of Arcane Heritage can actually be pretty lethal. That gives you the ability to effectively have up to level 15 abilities in your Dragon Bloodline (DD stacks with Sorcerer levels on progressing your Dragonic Bloodline abilities) AND have your DD abilites and still have Smite and (effectively) Divine Grace.
Think of the abyssal bloodline from eldritch heritage as your divine heritage/nature being corrupted by the same force that granted you your antipaladin powers in the first place.
Also, gonna +1 the archaeologist+fate's favored+lingering performance build for AP4/caster1/DD.
So how exactly do Archaeologist’s Luck and Lingering Performance interact?
Activate your Luck one round, and its effects linger for the next two. If the fight's still going strong on round 4, activate your luck again.
It essentially triples the amount of Luck that an Archaeologist gets per day, which is good, since they don't get more as they level.
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And with Fates Favoured as a trait, you're getting +2 to attack, damage, saves and skills for 3 rounds every time you activate it.
If you're going to be going to 20th and you *really* want more spellcasting, perhaps I might suggest Eldritch Knight, you'd need to pre-qualify by playing a race that has a 3rd level arcane SLA or take a few more levels of DD or bard otherwise.
Perhaps something like:
AP 1/Bard 1/AP 3/DD 4 then mix AP and EK as you prefer, you'll keep a great BAB, get some extra spell levels and feel free to add more AP levels for better smites, etc as you go. Definitely start as Anti Paladin to get the great HP and the armour and weapons that will help you survive at first level, then Bard for the skills and Luck that will add to everything, then 3 more AP levels to qualify for DD. Four levels of Dragon Disciple to get the good stuff and essentially you're set at that point, you have all the basics you need to do anything, advance either more as an AP, Ek (if you like it and qualify) or even Bard if you feel the need for more skills and such. You'll have good skills, great saves, virtually full BAB all backed up by some nice spells and special abilities.
Incidentally, if you're going Aasimar, their Daylight SLA will qualify you for entering Eldritch Knight as it meets the '3rd level arcane spells' requirement.
A level 20 build might look like:
AP 1/Bard 1/AP 3/DD 4/AP 1 (for Fiendish Boon)/Alternate AP and EK.
This would end up at 20th as Bard 1, Anti Paladin 10, Dragon Disciple 4, Eldritch Knight 5. Your BAB would be 18 and you'd have 3rd level Bard spells (and very few issues casting in full plate), with multiple natural attacks hitting hard and far more accurately than those using weapons. Alter the mix of AP and Ek after level 10 on whether you want more magic or more smiting to suit your preference.
I saw your desire for more skill points.
Not RAW, but many GM's allow it. Go crossblooded sorc draconic and sage. Now int is your casting stat. So you will have a bit more skill points at each level.
You won't know as many spells, but you said you were mostly wanting to buff yourself. So how many will you really need? Plus I'm falling in love with Pages of Spell Knowledge. Pretty cheap for what they give you.
My honest opinion is to go Human due to the FCB which will allow you to gain a good number of additional known spells. Then to maximize your casting ability, go straight Sorcerer (Draconic) for 5 levels, then Dragon Disciple for 8 levels, then Sorcerer the rest of the way. For RP purposes I'd actually recommend Black Dragon though your GM can fill you in later as to why. Take Eldritch Heritage feats for the Orcish or Abyssal bloodline to add additional Strength bonuses and other useful abilities.
That's basically the build one of our guys is playing through Wrath of the Righteous right now (except Silver Dragon) - he's pretty solid from the start contributing in melee with his claws and eventual bite, blasting or mixing up as needed, but at later levels when he's adding in stuff like Dragon Form and Transformation, he's become an absolute terror and has been very, very versatile.